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comment by AnthonyC · 2024-08-26T11:46:40.954Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
The problem with the Golden Rule stems from an assumed homogeneity in values and desires between you and the people you interact with, and/or an unjustified assumption that you'll automatically apply it at the right meta-level as @noggin-scratcher [LW · GW] said. The Silver Rule still has (a lesser version of) this problem. Some people really would want you to treat them in ways you would not want to be treated.
Another option is to move to the Platinum Rule: Treat others the way they would want to be treated. Harder to implement, harder to adjudicate, but it avoids this problem. It's issue is that it only works when you already have the kind of empathy the people touting the gold and silver rules are trying to teach/instill. In some ways you have to practice on those first.
Replies from: None↑ comment by [deleted] · 2024-08-26T12:06:56.671Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Another option is to move to the Platinum Rule: Treat others the way they would want to be treated.
This suffers from a different, but still very serious problem, namely the fact that most people are at least somewhat selfish and want to be treated in a way that gives them (from an overall societal perspective) an unjustifiably large amount of resources, priority, respect, epistemic authority, etc. Granting them this might be good for the individuals in those spots, but has a negative effect on society as a whole.
It sure would be nice and convenient if it just so happened that "do what person X tells you to" and "do what's best for the community around you" were always in alignment. After all, in such a world, we wouldn't need to make these tough choices or ever have to reject the requests made by concrete people in front of us because of abstract principles or consequentialist reasoning (which is often quite difficult to do, especially for otherwise nice, prosocial, and empathetic people). But, as it turns out, we live in a world with scarce resources, one in which avoiding conflict by taking a third option often fails, and we must confront the issues directly instead.
For example, if somebody tells you that the way they want you to treat them is to always agree with everything they are saying and to never criticize their statements, what are you meant to do? If you give in, this not only allows potentially bad and damaging claims to go unchallenged, but also sets up terrible incentives for everyone else to copy this behavior. But if you don't give in, suddenly you aren't using the Platinum Rule anymore; perhaps you have some set of principles that tell you where to draw the line between "spots where people are allowed to impose their desires for how they should be treated on you" and "spots where such requests should be given no deference whatsoever," but now you've just moved the entire discussion up a step without major changes to the status quo; everyone will start arguing over where the line should be drawn and which side of it any given situation falls on.
There is also another issue, namely that if you empower individuals to affect great change in how others interact with them solely on the basis of their preferences, you are setting up bad incentives for how those individuals' preferences will change over time. As Vladimir_M has written in a classic response[1] to Scott Alexander's old post [LW · GW]:
In a world where people make decisions according to this principle, one has the incentive to self-modify into a utility monster who feels enormous suffering at any actions of other people one dislikes for whatever reason. And indeed, we can see this happening to some extent: when people take unreasonable offense and create drama to gain concessions, their feelings are usually quite sincere.
You say, "pretending to be offended for personal gain is... less common in reality than it is in people's imaginations." That is indeed true, but only because people have the ability to whip themselves into a very sincere feeling of offense given the incentive to do so. Although sincere, these feelings will usually subside if they realize that nothing's to be gained.
And then the follow-up [LW(p) · GW(p)]:
If we have a dispute and I credibly signal that I'm going to flip out and create drama out of all proportion to the issue at stake, you're faced with a choice between conceding to my demands or getting into an unpleasant situation that will cost more than the matter of dispute is worth. I'm sure you can think of many examples where people successfully get the upper hand in disputes using this strategy. The only way to disincentivize such behavior is to pre-commit credibly to be defiant in face of threats of drama. In contrast, if you act like a (naive) utilitarian, you are exceptionally vulnerable to this strategy, since I don't even need drama to get what I want, if I can self-modify to care tremendously about every single thing I want. (Which I won't do if I'm a good naive utilitarian myself, but the whole point is that it's not a stable strategy.)
Now, the key point is that such behavior is usually not consciously manipulative and calculated. On the contrary -- someone flipping out and creating drama for a seemingly trivial reason is likely to be under God-honest severe distress, feeling genuine pain of offense and injustice. This is a common pattern in human social behavior: humans are extremely good at detecting faked emotions and conscious manipulation, and as a result, we have evolved so that our brains lash out with honest strong emotion that is nevertheless directed by some module that performs game-theoretic assessment of the situation. This of course prompts strategic responses from others, leading to a strategic arms race without end.
The further crucial point is that these game-theoretic calculators in our brains are usually smart enough to assess whether the flipping out strategy is likely to be successful, given what might be expected in response. Basically, it is a part of the human brain that responds to rational incentives even though it's not under the control of the conscious mind. With this in mind, you can resolve the seeming contradiction between the sincerity of the pain of offense and the fact that it responds to rational incentives.
- ^
And not to get in the weeds of political issues too much, but I think the claims in his comment have been shown to be correct, given changes in social and political discourse in the US, at least, in the past 10 years or so.
↑ comment by Myron Hedderson (myron-hedderson) · 2024-08-26T13:41:47.266Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I think a search for a rule that:
- Is simple enough to teach to children, and ideally can be stated in a single sentence
- Can be applied consistently across many or all situations
- Cannot be gamed by an intelligent agent who is not following the rule and is willing to self-modify in order to exploit loopholes or edge cases.
is likely to find no such rule exists.
The platinum rule is pretty good, as a simple to teach to children thing, I think. They will already intuitively understand that you don't have to play fair with someone who isn't following the rules, which patches most of the holes. (After all, if I'm following the platinum rule, creating a bunch of drama for someone else is not treating them how they'd like to be treated. Putting them in an awkward situation where they're forced to do what I want or I'll be sad, and they are now a puppet hostage to my emotional state, is likewise un-fun for the counterparty, even if the sadness is genuine.)
comment by rotatingpaguro · 2024-08-26T07:56:59.206Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I happened to have the same doubt as you. A deeper analysis of the sacred texts shows how your interpretation of the Golden Rule is amiss. You say:
“Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” (Matthew 7:12)
Therefore whatever you desire for men to do to you, you shall also do to them; for this is the law and the prophets.
The verse speaks specifically of men, not generically of others. So if you are straight, it does not compel you to sexual acts on women, while if you are gay, you shall try to hit on all the men to your heart's content. You can see this perfectly fits ordinary morality.
I think it's apposite to go beyond the Golden Rule, but by improvement rather than negation. The first step is Kant's Categorical Imperative: "Act only according to that maxim whereby you can at the same time will that it should become a universal law.". The second step is functional decision theory [? · GW].
comment by LiorSuchoy · 2024-08-26T08:12:03.898Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Interestingly, a similar discussion is made in the Jewish texts. The origin of both Jewish and Christian versions is the verse "You shall not take vengeance or bear a grudge against any of your people, but you shall love your neighbor as yourself: I am the Lord." [Leviticus 19:18] In this verse, and further in Jewish texts discussing it, the emphasis is on not harming rather than acting with love. The love is only used as a motivation for not hurting (and not, for example, fellatio). This is the basis of the Hebrew version of the golden rule, which roughly translates to "don't do to your friend what you don't want to be done to you". This is the version taught in nurseries in Israel and (I believe) other Jewish communities.
Lior
comment by noggin-scratcher · 2024-08-26T08:53:17.494Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
The golden rule can perhaps be enhanced by applying it on a meta level: rather than "I would like to be offered oral sex, therefore I should offer oral sex", a rule of "I like it when people consider my preferences and desires before acting, and offer me things I want—therefore I should do the same for others by being considerate and attentive to their preferences and desires, but I don't expect they want to be offered oral sex"
But then, if you're getting different and contradictory recommendations depending on how much meta you decide to apply, that rather defeats the point of having a rule to follow.