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comment by solipsist · 2014-08-08T19:47:11.622Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Speaking only to the proximate cause (ebola). The headline of the article read:

‘God is angry with Liberia,’ local religious leaders say, blaming Ebola on ‘homosexualism’

Local leaders blaming Ebola on homosexuality is bad. But this is a country where the GDP per capita is less than $2 per day. This is a country with 300 confirmed cases of malaria per 1000 people (ebola has killed 255 Liberians in total this epidemic, according to that article), and were only a few years ago a majority of children tested positive for malaria. I'm thrilled people are paying attention to the welfare of Liberians. There are many problems in Liberia, and a poor response to the ebola virus is nowhere near the top of the list.

Replies from: David_Gerard, Thomas, advancedatheist
comment by David_Gerard · 2014-08-09T11:59:10.155Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It's worse in Britain - remember that the Church of England is a state church, with bishops in the House of Lords. And here we have bishops literally claiming tolerance for sodomy causes floods. Clearly, this is strong evidence that Britain, despite being a rich first-world country, is a sick state that must be taken over by somewhere sane forthwith.

comment by Thomas · 2014-08-09T06:08:37.865Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

ebola has killed 255 Liberians in total this epidemic, according to that article

This is not fair argument.

Ebola is feared to kill millions if it is left unchecked.

EDIT: It is feared to kill billions, even.

Replies from: ChristianKl
comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-09T11:42:35.057Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It's not clear that telling people to stay at home for three days while increase the spread of the virus. It might not be the best course of action but it's hardly the worst.

comment by advancedatheist · 2014-08-09T01:48:55.878Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

But this is a country where the GDP per capita is less than $2 per day.

Progressive environmentalists want us to "live lightly upon the earth," lower our carbon footprints and such. Seems like the Liberians have figured out how to do that.

comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-08T19:42:15.740Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

That's called "colonialism".

There is empirical data on how it works.

Replies from: Larks, advancedatheist, ChristianKl, None
comment by Larks · 2014-08-09T00:27:45.685Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Indeed. From one of the better papers (using trade winds as the independent variable):

Using a new database of islands throughout the Atlantic, Pacific and Indian Oceans we examine whether colonial origins affect modern economic outcomes. We argue that the nature of discovery and colonization of islands provides random variation in the length and type of colonial experience. We instrument for length of colonization using wind direction and wind speed. Wind patterns which mattered a great deal during the age of sail do not have a direct effect on GDP today, but do affect GDP via their historical impact on colonization. The number of years spent as a European colony is strongly positively related to the island's GDP per capita and negatively related to infant mortality. This basic relationship is also found to hold for a standard dataset of developing countries. We test whether this link is directly related to democratic institutions, trade, and the identity of the colonizing nation. While there is substantial variation in the history of democratic institutions across the islands, such variation does not predict income. Islands with significant export products during the colonial period are wealthier today, but this does not diminish the importance of colonial tenure. The timing of the colonial experience seems to matter. Time spent as a colony after 1700 is more beneficial to modern income than years before 1700, consistent with a change in the nature of colonial relationships over time.

Replies from: buybuydandavis, pragmatist
comment by buybuydandavis · 2014-08-09T02:43:50.117Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

What have the Romans ever done for us?

comment by pragmatist · 2014-08-09T05:58:42.261Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It's possible (I would even say plausible) that having a colonial past is an overall economic benefit to a country -- due to the establishment of sound institutions that persist through decolonization -- while having a colonial present (being actively colonized) is an overall economic detriment -- due to the traditionally extractive nature of colonial policy swamping the benefits of good institutions. I know that the economic growth rate in India increased markedly soon after decolonization, and that the period of colonial rule in India coincided with a massive decline in India's share in world GDP.

Replies from: bramflakes, army1987, Dentin
comment by bramflakes · 2014-08-09T15:22:06.454Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

having a colonial present (being actively colonized) is an overall economic detriment -- due to the traditionally extractive nature of colonial policy swamping the benefits of good institutions.

Colonies were extractive at first, but as they were filled with white emigrés over time their economies diversified and infrastructure began to be built, which also improved the lot of the natives in some cases (but I don't know how general this positive externality was). For example, after the Belgian government annexed the Congo Free State after its catastrophic mismanagement and abuses, the colonial authorities devoted tremendous effort into educating the native Congolese and providing healthcare. Black-owned enterprises flourished, literacy skyrocketed, and the infant mortality rates in the major cities compared favorably with Western standards.

And then it all went to shit ...

Replies from: satt
comment by satt · 2014-08-09T16:06:15.427Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

For example, after the Belgian government annexed the Congo Free State after its catastrophic mismanagement and abuses, the colonial authorities devoted tremendous effort into educating the native Congolese and providing healthcare.

Using Congo as an exemplar, in the context of this particular post, has a degree of irony.

comment by A1987dM (army1987) · 2014-08-09T09:18:09.163Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I dunno, Moldbug does make a good point in his Fnargl thought experiment (though he's very naive if he actually expects it to stay a good point until 3007.)

Replies from: pragmatist
comment by pragmatist · 2014-08-09T13:45:34.509Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

But there are several important disanalogies between Fnargl and actual historical colonial regimes. Unlike Fnargl, colonial governments had to answer to the short term interests of the governments (and, by extension, the people) of their home countries. So, for instance, the British did things like erect massive protective tariffs against Indian exports to Britain while simultaneously making it very cheap to export from Britain to India, in order to cater to special interests at home (who could vote them out of power, unlike the Indian people).

comment by Dentin · 2014-08-11T16:18:15.252Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

(Note - short term <= 20 years, long term >= 20 years.)

It's perfectly reasonable for there to be a long term versus short term tradeoff. Regime change almost always has a short term negative impact as institutions are gutted and society resettles. The long term tradeoff is more difficult to quantify, and is also subject to things like hyperbolic discounting. Since war and nation building is often at the behest of politics, the short term negative is almost always seen as the dominant factor.

This is one of the most frustrating things for me to see, demonstrated by one of the more clear-cut cases: North Korea. Violently overthrowing the regime would cost billions of dollars, and the death count could be as high as 1-2 million in the conflict. Economic fallout may be as high as a trillion dollars, with markets changing and political powers shifting over the following decades.

This is weighed against 20 million people being tortured and oppressed into living at subsistence, in a land where famine can claim a million people per year and the living conditions are among the worst the world has to offer. The inability of the world to act to end this isn't a moral question of dust specks versus torture; it's a matter of torture versus the short term inconvenience.

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-11T16:32:40.012Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

one of the more clear-cut cases: North Korea

First, you keep forgetting that North Korea has nukes. In a cornered-rat situation they are are likely to nuke Seoul and might as well attempt to nuke Tokyo (their rockets reach that far).

Second, which entity will be going around the world fixing what it sees as problems by application of superior firepower? How will this entity make its decisions? What do you think it's going to evolve into?

Third, did the experience of Iraq teach you anything?

Replies from: Dentin, Azathoth123
comment by Dentin · 2014-08-12T04:48:21.370Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

First: A death count of 1-2 million includes the low-yield barely functional nuclear weapons of Pyongyang, assuming they're even able to deliver them to a location where they would do significant damage.

Second: Not relevant to the discussion and serves only to distract from my point.

Third: A big part of my post was to point out that multiple decades and proper resources are needed to handle situations like Iraq. Did you actually bother to read it?

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-12T05:15:36.302Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Second: Not relevant to the discussion

I strongly disagree.

multiple decades and proper resources are needed to handle situations like Iraq

How do you know that after multiple decades and "proper" resources you will succeed?

Replies from: Dentin
comment by Dentin · 2014-08-12T17:36:27.431Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I don't "know" that it will succeed. However, I know the odds of success will be much higher. Are you claiming it can never succeed?

The second point is not relevant to the discussion, because the discussion is about the existence of alternate scenarios which are higher global utility. An implementable path of execution is not required for their discussion. Specifically, this is a discussion about the utility of leaving NK as it is, compared to a particular alternate future that I claim has higher net utility. Requiring that I lay out and define an error proof path to get there which takes into account other possible scenarios of your design is well outside of bounds, and if you wish to require that, I'll politely excuse myself.

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-12T18:09:02.203Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

However, I know the odds of success will be much higher.

Well, how high? Did we get from 0.01% to 0.1%? Or did we get from 5% to 50%?

On the basis of what do you estimate the odds of success?

the discussion is about the existence of alternate scenarios which are higher global utility. An implementable path of execution is not required for their discussion.

Huh? So, um, you're talking about fantasy worlds, ones which you can't get to?

My point is that your "alternate future" has serious side-effects which you should not ignore while estimating its global utility. I think that your claim of "higher net utility" is mistaken.

comment by Azathoth123 · 2014-08-12T03:01:38.516Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Third, did the experience of Iraq teach you anything?

As I mentioned here, North Korea doesn't have preexisting ethnic tensions.

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-12T05:18:14.448Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I guess it did not.

Replies from: Dentin
comment by Dentin · 2014-08-12T17:39:55.907Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Lumifer, it would be helpful if you laid out your belief system here. It appears as though you believe intervention is never justified and that nation building/culture change can never be successful. I'd like to get clarification, and understand why.

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-12T18:20:02.661Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It appears as though you believe intervention is never justified and that nation building/culture change can never be successful.

Whether something is justified is a function of morality (= system of values) under which you evaluate the justification. Even if you assume pure utilitarianism, the utility function itself is not a given and depends on a network of values.

In short, your values will determine what's justified and what's not. Different people (and different organizations) have different values and so will consider different things justified or unacceptable.

Having said this, I think that decision-making leading to political interventions is usually biased. I suspect that it prioritizes short-term thinking over long-term and tends to underestimate costs. Interventions also usually work better on small scale and with very lopsided power balance (compare the US invasion of Grenada and the US invasion of Iraq).

With respect to nation building and culture changing, I don't know of a single example where the conqueror changed the conquered society primarily for the society's own benefit and not the conqueror's. Countries have goals and incentives, altruism is not among them. I don't expect that to change in the near future.

Replies from: Dentin
comment by Dentin · 2014-08-12T23:15:51.973Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Regarding the above, it appears we largely agree. My wish for interventions is that if they are deemed necessary, they be properly funded both in terms of resources and time.

Regarding culture changes, I agree that most conquered societies were changed to the benefit of the conquerors. There are many cases where I'm ok with that - ridding the world of the "culture of north korea" and replacing it with a "culture of western civilization" is a prime example.

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-13T00:26:56.146Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

My wish for interventions

My wishes and my expectations are often rather different... :-/

There are many cases where I'm ok with that - ridding the world of the "culture of north korea" and replacing it with a "culture of western civilization" is a prime example.

I am sure there are more than a few people who would be OK with ridding the world of the "culture of western civilization" and replacing it with a "culture of China". So, what's next?

Replies from: Dentin, Azathoth123
comment by Dentin · 2014-08-13T18:37:03.573Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Of course there are, however western civilization currently has big enough guns to defend itself.

Your responses seem very emotional and not well thought out. I suspect your beliefs on this topic are too strongly tied to your identity for you to discuss it dispassionately.

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-13T19:07:17.732Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Of course there are, however western civilization currently has big enough guns to defend itself.

So is that what it comes down to, who has bigger guns?

Your responses seem very emotional and not well thought out. I suspect your beliefs on this topic are too strongly tied to your identity for you to discuss it dispassionately.

That's... interesting. Would you care to substantiate this assertion of yours? Because from my side it looks like you just want to stop this conversation by claiming that I'm a hysterical idiot and no good can come out of talking to me. There are simpler and more polite ways of getting out of a conversation.

Replies from: Dentin
comment by Dentin · 2014-08-14T15:55:56.250Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Ultimately yes, it does come down to who has bigger guns, no matter how unpalatable that may seem from a moral standpoint.

If I wanted to stop the conversation, I would simply stop responding (which will probably happen after a few more messages.) Rather, I wanted to point out that you're being IMHO needlessly combative and that you're making assumptions and ascribing viewpoints to me which I do not hold. I do not, for example, think you're an hysterical idiot, and I wouldn't be talking to you if I thought no good could come of it.

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-14T16:07:18.566Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

you're being IMHO needlessly combative

That is a rather different claim than "your responses seem very emotional and not well thought out" which is a pretty clear passive-aggressive jab, especially coming after "regarding the above, it appears we largely agree".

I do tend to argue in a combative way, whether it's "needless", of course, is a subjective opinion.

Replies from: Dentin
comment by Dentin · 2014-08-14T17:27:39.067Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It may seem a clear passive-aggressive jab to you, but it isn't. Allow me to examine one of your responses from above:

"So is that what it comes down to, who has bigger guns?"

This very much feels like an emotional trigger -> cached response scenario on your part. It's combative in that you're passive-aggressively implying that I'm too stupid to have thought of this already, even though it's a trivially obvious objection and one that gets discussed to death quite often. Did you really think I hadn't heard it before, did you really think I'm unaware that the situation is more complicated than this, did you really think such an obvious objection would have been overlooked?

That's an example of what I mean. You didn't bother to emulate my thinking, you didn't try to understand where I was coming from. From my perspective, it appears that you just threw out a cached "pretending to be wise" soundbite because I stumbled onto one of your triggers.

Earlier, I asked you for your overall viewpoint so I could better understand your model of the world and try to sidestep some of this. The fact is that much of our view on this matter does appear to match, yet you still seem to be after my throat. If you think that I'm the problem, then by all means, let me know.

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-14T17:41:14.699Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This very much feels like an emotional trigger -> cached response scenario on your part. It's combative in that you're passive-aggressively implying that I'm too stupid to have thought of this already, even though it's a trivially obvious objection and one that gets discussed to death quite often.

You misunderstood this comment. It's not a cached response and it's purpose is not to imply that you are too stupid to have thought about it before.

The purpose of this particular sentence is to sharpen the point and offer you a chance to accept or reject a position around the boundary where I'm not sure whether you'll agree with it or not. You could viably have said "Yes, it does come to this" or you could viably have said "No, I reject this approach".

Essentially, when you stake out a position, I don't know how far are you willing to take it. So I take a guess as to how far could it go and propose a one-sided interpretation or a position that's noticeably more extreme in a particular direction. When I do this I don't know whether you'll find this new position acceptable or not -- the point of my proposal/question is to find out.

You didn't bother to emulate my thinking

My ability to read minds is very very limited :-D I don't have any particular insights into how your mind works (including things which are patently obvious to you since it's your own mind) and I don't think I could do a good -- or even a passable -- job of emulating your thinking.

yet you still seem to be after my throat

I am curious about the boundaries of the positions you asserted here. I am not particularly interested in your throat or your scalp.

Replies from: Dentin
comment by Dentin · 2014-08-14T21:21:09.758Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Instead of sharpening the point, you could have just asked. That's particularly relevant here, because sharpening the point -does not work- when the answer is, "it's complicated".

Regarding the boundaries of my position, yes, it pretty much always comes down to who has the guns, whether those guns be nuclear bombs, economics, or even a culture that your average human being prefers over another. In our current world, there's a pretty strong trend that the cultures with the big guns are preferred over the rest; in part because the guns provide security, but much more so because those places able to protect themselves are better places to live. There are of course exceptions at every end of the spectrum, but the trend is clear.

So yes, having the guns means western civilization wins and north korea doesn't. However, the west also happens to have the 'moral might' to go along with it: the reason we have the guns, is because people actually like and want to live here, as opposed to there, and that's the ultimate arbiter.

From that standpoint, even russia and china have the 'moral might': north korea is arguably one of the worst places on the planet to live.

So is that what it comes down to, who has bigger guns? Most of the time yes, but it's complicated.

Similarly, didn't we learn from the Iraq war? Yes, we learned lots of things. It's complicated.

By trying to force these questions down to a black and white yes/no answer, you're both insulting the others in the thread and eliminating an entire category of answer. I don't believe that was your intent, but nevertheless that's what's happening.

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-15T00:57:06.058Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

sharpening the point -does not work- when the answer is, "it's complicated".

First, I believe it does. "That depends, it's complicated and here's why..." is a perfectly good answer to a very sharp point.

Second, "it's complicated" is not an acceptable answer in the cases where you actually have to make a binary decision.

you're both insulting the others in the thread

I think you're the only one who got insulted, basically because you thought it was all about you and your throat. Oh well.

I think this subthread is done.

comment by Azathoth123 · 2014-08-13T23:15:37.304Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Well the "culture of north korea" is glaringly obviously much more dysfunctional than the "culture of western civilization", as for the "culture of western civilization" and "culture of China", they're much more comparable.

comment by advancedatheist · 2014-08-09T01:53:24.035Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

You know former slaves from the U.S. founded Liberia and became a minority class ruling over native Africans, don't you?

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-09T02:19:40.867Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Why, yes, I do. By the way, that's why it's called "Liberia".

comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-08T20:02:41.894Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

As far as colonialism goes it's also worth mentioning that the acting religious bodies are Christian in nature.

comment by [deleted] · 2014-08-08T20:00:54.954Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Well, there's also the special relationship between the United States and Israel. I wouldn't consider Israel a colony of the US.

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-08T20:04:10.193Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I am not sure I see the relevance..?

comment by Kawoomba · 2014-08-09T15:31:39.388Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Taking over sick countries is optimal in the same sense that a benign totalitarian dictatorship is optimal.

That is, both don't work with humans executing it.

Replies from: TheAncientGeek
comment by TheAncientGeek · 2014-08-14T18:51:00.814Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Executing what? Benign dictatorship isn't a perfect system because there is no system, no reliable, reproducible process for churning out people with a combination of begninity and leadership skills. Whats to execute? Its llike having a recipe that starts "first find some magic beans..."

comment by satt · 2014-08-09T15:35:05.766Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Why use this epidemic to argue for medical-humanitarian (resisting the urge to put that in scare quote marks) takeovers of foreign governments, when the far more powerful exhibit of HIV/AIDS denialism in Thabo Mbeki's South Africa exists? I get the impression this post might've been a knee-jerk reaction to something in the news.

Replies from: Azathoth123
comment by Azathoth123 · 2014-08-09T18:42:46.140Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

To be fare, the South Africans may have a point, i.e., it's possible that many of the cases diagnosed as "AIDS" in Africa aren't actually caused by HIV. At least that explanation for why we have an AIDS epidemic in Africa but not on any other continent makes about as much sense as any other I've heard.

Replies from: satt, ChristianKl
comment by satt · 2014-08-10T12:22:27.043Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

At least that explanation for why we have an AIDS epidemic in Africa but not on any other continent makes about as much sense as any other I've heard.

I don't think that phenomenon needs a special explanation. Wikipedia tells us that about 70% of people with HIV live in sub-Saharan Africa, and about 70% of the world's AIDS deaths occur in sub-Saharan Africa. AIDS is concentrated in Africa because HIV is concentrated in Africa.

it's possible that many of the cases diagnosed as "AIDS" in Africa aren't actually caused by HIV

Statistically, given the millions of Africans who've had AIDS diagnoses, we would expect thousands of erroneous diagnoses even if the diagnostic process were 99.9% correct.

Replies from: Azathoth123
comment by Azathoth123 · 2014-08-10T18:41:51.841Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I don't think that phenomenon needs a special explanation. (..) AIDS is concentrated in Africa because HIV is concentrated in Africa.

That's not an explanation. Why is HIV concentrated in Africa? Back during the 90's the standard explanation was that there was strain of HIV in Africa that spread well by heterosexual sex and that this strain was likely to break into the US real soon now. Since that failed to happen, we are now left with no unfalsified explanation.

Statistically, given the millions of Africans who've had AIDS diagnoses, we would expect thousands of erroneous diagnoses even if the diagnostic process were 99.9% correct.

One difference between Africa and other continents is that on other continents they test for the HIV virus before diagnosing someone with AIDS. In Africa since doing blood tests is expensive, and without disposable needles (also expensive) not particularly safe, they will frequently diagnose AIDS based only on symptoms.

Replies from: ChristianKl
comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-11T22:18:54.849Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Back during the 90's the standard explanation was that there was strain of HIV in Africa that spread well by heterosexual sex and that this strain was likely to break into the US real soon now.

A lot of the spread of AIDS likely wasn't due to sex but due to uncleaned syringes.

One difference between Africa and other continents is that on other continents they test for the HIV virus before diagnosing someone with AIDS. In Africa since doing blood tests is expensive, and without disposable needles (also expensive) not particularly safe, they will frequently diagnose AIDS based only on symptoms.

Algeria is an African country that has less AIDS than the US. It's not so much about seeking a difference between Africa and the rest but about subsaharan Africa and in particular South Africa and Botswana which happen to have the most AIDS. South Africa and Botswana aren't a particular poor countries, in 1990 they were comparable with Cuba and Brazil.

There are a bunch of ceremonies where humans get cut with nonsterilized knifes. There's polyamory.

Replies from: Azathoth123
comment by Azathoth123 · 2014-08-16T21:36:47.147Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

A lot of the spread of AIDS likely wasn't due to sex but due to uncleaned syringes.

So all the western "anti-AIDS" condom distribution programs were mostly a waste of time and resources? That doesn't bode well for the success of a western humanitarian takeover.

South Africa and Botswana aren't a particular poor countries, in 1990 they were comparable with Cuba and Brazil.

And yet they can't afford disposable syringes.

Replies from: ChristianKl
comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-17T08:37:30.139Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

So all the western "anti-AIDS" condom distribution programs were mostly a waste of time and resources?

Condoms do reduce some ways in which AIDS get's spread but they are not enough.

And yet they can't afford disposable syringes.

It's not only a matter of having the money to afford disposable syringes. It's about having the knowledge that if you don't use a disposable syringe you have the risk of getting infected with AIDS. That's why AIDS denialism is so dangerous.

comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-09T21:49:54.892Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

South Africa managed to loss around 10 years of average lifespan in the debacle. The same thing didn't happen on other continents.

The South African really did suffer a lot because there government didn't do enough to fight AIDS.

Replies from: Azathoth123
comment by Azathoth123 · 2014-08-10T18:44:44.098Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

South Africa managed to loss around 10 years of average lifespan in the debacle. The same thing didn't happen on other continents.

Yeah, because South Africa totally didn't go through a major societal upheaval about two decades ago.

Replies from: ChristianKl
comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-10T19:20:05.367Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Yeah, because South Africa totally didn't go through a major societal upheaval about two decades ago.

During the Vietnam war the average lifespan of Vietnamese people fell by three years. What happened South Africa reduced the life span of South African more than three time as much. That's how much they messed up.

Countries normally don't lose ten years of average lifespan through major societal upheaval or wars.

From 1991 to 2001 Rwanda who had their genocide in 1994 gained a year in lifespan while South Africa lost seven.

Replies from: Azathoth123
comment by Azathoth123 · 2014-08-16T21:41:09.221Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

From 1991 to 2001 Rwanda who had their genocide in 1994 gained a year in lifespan while South Africa lost seven.

The genocide ended. On the other hand South Africa's political system was permanently changed.

Replies from: ChristianKl
comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-16T22:42:15.286Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It was changed in a way that brought people like Thabo Mbeki to power and because he did things like what we discussed above, South Africa got very messed up.

comment by PhilGoetz · 2014-08-09T18:53:28.475Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I see no possible downside.

ADDED: I think you should restate your question to say, When an entire society is too stupid to prevent itself from endangering the civilized world, should we solve the problem forcefully? And relate it to Afghanistan, which is another example.

comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-08T19:23:44.127Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

When an entire society is too stupid to take care of itself, should the industrialized world take over their government and save their lives against their will?

Because taking over countries via military force generally saves lives?

Replies from: Dentin
comment by Dentin · 2014-08-11T16:00:54.622Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

In places like North Korea, with a population that lives at subsistence level and famine that kills hundreds of thousands of people per year, that could very well be true. In those situations, it becomes a trade-off of lives saved against other utility.

Replies from: ChristianKl
comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-11T21:38:18.887Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

That depends very much on how much you value the live of people who live in Seoul.

Attacking North Korea means that a lot of people in North and South Korea will die. Then you will still be left with North Koreans running guerrilla warfare on the new government that you put there with tries to rebuild the whole country after the mess.

The straightforward way if you want to prevent famine is to ship them the food they need and increase economic trade as much as possible.

Replies from: Azathoth123
comment by Azathoth123 · 2014-08-12T02:59:32.452Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

That depends very much on how much you value the live of people who live in Seoul.

See the UDT reasons for not giving in to blackmail.

Then you will still be left with North Koreans running guerrilla warfare on the new government that you put there with tries to rebuild the whole country after the mess.

I doubt this would happen. This didn't happen with Nazi Germany or Imperial Japan. If you look at the collapse of communist states, the only places this happened were places with preexisting ethnic tension kept in check by the strong central government.

Replies from: ChristianKl
comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-12T08:47:14.531Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The way the US got Japan to stop fighting was to drop atomic bombs to coerce the Japanese leadership to concede a defeat and the Japanese leadership had a strong enough authority to get most Japanese troops to stop fighting.

Navi Germany had an ideology that was very much about respecting power. The whole authority of the Nazi government was based on it being perceived as strong. After both World Wars Germany tried to copy US culture to copy the traits of the winner.

The communist states didn't fall to invading armies in a bloody war that tried to govern those states afterwards.

See the UDT reasons for not giving in to blackmail.

The discussion about blackmail is usually not about starting Wars with no calculation about the cost of those wars.

Replies from: Azathoth123
comment by Azathoth123 · 2014-08-13T02:47:46.734Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The communist states didn't fall to invading armies in a bloody war that tried to govern those states afterwards.

Nevertheless, the ones with preexisting ethnic tensions, i.e., Yugoslavia and parts of Russia, degenerated into ethnic warfare.

comment by HalMorris · 2014-08-11T02:55:45.418Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

As we should have learned in Iraq especially, "defeating" another country in the sense of putting the whole existing power structure out of commission is sometimes relatively easy, but "taking over" another country is devilishly difficult. If the country was orderly to begin with, and recently invaded by a vicious enemy, they may abide your trying to restore them to orderliness. If they have recently allowed a vicious government to take over, and you bomb them back into the stone age and much of the population is shocked to realize that their government was far more awful than they realized (Germany post-WWII, and very partially applicable to Afghanistan), and you go in with massive resources and treat them really well (done in Germany, but not Afghanistan), then you might encounter some degree of humility for long enough to leave them with a decent government of law.

Replies from: Dentin
comment by Dentin · 2014-08-11T15:56:20.743Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The biggest problem with nation building and attempting to bootstrap new countries is that nobody seems to stick with it long enough. It seems like at least one full generation (20+ years) of support and management is required; certainly the halfway measures taken over the course of ten years in Afghanistan and Iraq were insufficient.

Replies from: Lumifer
comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-11T16:16:41.144Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The biggest problem with nation building and attempting to bootstrap new countries is that nobody seems to stick with it long enough. It seems like at least one full generation (20+ years) of support and management is require

Classic colonialism "stuck with it" for much more than a full generation. And the poster children of "fixed" countries -- post-WW2 Germany and Japan -- certainly had less than 20+ years of outside management.

comment by A1987dM (army1987) · 2014-08-09T09:13:23.202Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Liberian government leaders are convinced that the Ebola epidemic is divine punishment for their depravities, and instructed everyone to fast for three days in repentance. Sick people refuse to let doctors treat them, and some are convinced that Western medicine is a ruse with dark motives.

Meh. Give 'em enough rope to select themselves out of the gene pool. ;-)

EDIT: redacted because Thomas has a good point.

comment by advancedatheist · 2014-08-08T19:15:27.261Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Sounds like the sort of question Steve Sailer would ask. Perhaps we should compile a kind of triage list of the world's dysfunctional countries and prioritize the ones which would get the most benefit from this kind of benign receivership. I would put North Korea near the top of the salvageable countries because we have proof of principle in South Korea that the extended Korean family has the genetic goods to benefit from a properly run recovery plan.

Replies from: knb, Lumifer, ChristianKl
comment by knb · 2014-08-09T03:28:02.231Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Sounds like the sort of question Steve Sailer would ask.

That's actually the opposite of the truth. Sailer has been an ardent anti-interventionist for his entire pundit career.

Seems like yet another case of failing the Ideological Turing Test.

Replies from: pragmatist
comment by pragmatist · 2014-08-09T05:48:17.926Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Not really an ideological Turing test, since the context suggests that advancedatheist is not an ideological adversary of Steve Sailer (or at least, doesn't see himself as such). I'm pretty sure he said "Sounds like the sort of question Steve Sailer would ask" in order to praise the question, not criticize it.

comment by Lumifer · 2014-08-08T19:44:21.992Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

would put North Korea near the top of the salvageable countries

Right. So you start your takeover, Kim nukes Seoul, and..?

comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-08T19:27:25.369Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

North Korea also has enough biological weapons in storage to kill most of South Korea in the case it gets attacked to change it's regime.

Replies from: Douglas_Knight, James_Miller, advancedatheist
comment by Douglas_Knight · 2014-08-08T20:55:09.227Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It even has enough artillery.

Replies from: Dentin
comment by Dentin · 2014-08-12T17:53:42.575Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

However, it doesn't have enough petrol, and its equipment is ancient and unmaintained, and its communications networks are awful, and it has effectively zero airpower, and assuming its nukes actually function they're unlikely to be movable off the testing grounds, and we know where pretty much all the weapons emplacements are, and their army can't actually cross the DMZ without a lot of effort.

IMHO it makes a lot of sense to view NK as a pissed off 8 year old with a loaded .22 handgun threatening to shoot SK in the foot if she doesn't get a pony. Sure, nobody wants to get shot, but really, there's no existential risk to SK or any other country as a result of NK retaliation or attack (as NK stands right now.)

comment by James_Miller · 2014-08-08T22:07:40.833Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I hope China has caused this to not be true.

Replies from: ChristianKl
comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-09T00:42:03.237Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I don't think there ground for that hope. Seoul isn't far from North Korea. It easy to shoot over that distance. North Korea has it's military-first doctrine and therefore a lot of weaponry.

Replies from: James_Miller
comment by James_Miller · 2014-08-09T03:08:13.490Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I was thinking that North Korea having bio-weapons poses a threat to China as the biologicals could spread. I would hope that China would be using whatever leverage it has to stop North Korea from having bio-weapons. I know that China failed to stop North Korea from having atomic bombs, but North Korea gets a lot more propaganda value from atomic bombs than bio-weapons.

Replies from: ChristianKl
comment by ChristianKl · 2014-08-09T12:14:47.149Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Focusing on propaganda value ignores the internal politics of North Korea.

North Korea has powerful military. By it's own admission they had some intelligence services that were doing whatever they wanted. To stay in power the leader of North Korea has to follow the military-first principle and give the military what it wants.

Occasionally that means North Koreans starve. China doesn't want that refugees come over the border and it has to deal with them so they sent food to North Korea to prevent famine.

The best way out is to educate the next generation of North Korean leaders in the West in countries like Switzerland and increase trading between North Korea and the outside so that you have rich and powerful North Korean businessmen that have an interest in cultural exchange. North Korean businessmen have an interest that employees of their companies have internet access.

US policy on the other hand favors economic sanction that weaken the business community and therefore shift more power to the military. Why? That policy of being tough on North Korea is beneficial for internal US politics. Bush got point from his base for breaking the promises that Clinton made to North Korea and as a result North Korea got nuclear weapons.

China couldn't do anything about it. They can't prevent stupid US policy that strengthens those factors inside North Korea that wants nukes and biological weapons. China also has no way to put pressure on the North Korean military.

I know that China failed to stop North Korea from having atomic bombs

North Korea has biological and chemical weapons for a lot longer than it has nuclear weapons and likely has a larger stockpile.

comment by advancedatheist · 2014-08-08T19:34:32.139Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Does it make utilitarian sense to leave North Korea's Kim crime family in power because the current leader provides comic relief?

comment by Slider · 2014-08-08T20:45:51.746Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

You are asking whether the issue is sever enough that the states soveirnity should be derecognised. This is a serious act.

I could the same kind of argument to back-up the invasion of another country. Unusual numbers are sickly heavy resulting in deaths and the goverment is unwilling to take adequate measures to fix the problem. People refuse treatment on basis of their local customs and medical reforms are held back because of beliefs that it is a political ruse. The land is Murica and the customs are "mah freedoms" and the plotter is commies.

The post seems to argue that the Liberian situation could be so bad that the theorethical question would be relevant. There are many factors and levels of standards that "too stupid" and "care of" could be interpreted with. I find it likely that you are downplaying the importance of their autonomy and idealising the impact the suggested action would have. I think you are motivated more by the hate for their belief-system than the even alleged harm. Should it similar effectiveness came from a emotional neutral stupidness source I don't think you would be advocating what you are advocating.

I have seen essentially similar comments made by western believers (such as japan getting tsunamied because of perversions). Know that those make tasty media bites which makes it easy to slip into a distorted generalization. I think you are in a position to have larger than average returns on practising empathy to develop your views