A Proposal for Recognizing Nonstandard Intelligences

post by Yates (yates-lau) · 2025-05-08T18:10:41.589Z · LW · GW · 17 comments

Contents

  Introduction ***
  Who I Am (And Why That Matters Here)
  The Problem: Structural Alignment, Signaling Mismatch 
  Anticipating Objections
None
17 comments

Who am I ? 

" Outsider by circumstance, systems thinker by instinct. Trying to align sharp reasoning with misaligned systems."

 

PSA regarding the content of this post

This post was written by me with the help of LLM for specific phrasing and structure editing since I am not actually familiar with this forum and field before.

This post grew out of a long-standing attempt to understand my cognitive and psychiatric profile, especially how it may have contributed to persistent frustration and mental health challenges since adolescence.

I have read and understand the policy in the forum regarding LLM writting, but as a ESL speaker that is not academically trained in this field, I had to resort to ChatGPT-4o to help me compile my thoughts and clear up the grammar.

All reasoning and insights are my own; phrasing support was used to help express them more clearly.

Part of the content do contain AI assisted assessment on my cognitive profile and are not clinically verified yet. I made sure to understand everything through research and discussion with personal psychological professioal contact to minimize confirmation bias. I understand there will still be some degree of this issue.

Specific terminology were used to raise signal intensity, apologies if this offends anyone

The sections that contains more than 50% LLM assisted content will be flagged by this (***)

 

Introduction ***

Despite alignment with many rationalist values, model-based thinking, curiosity about errors, and systems-level pattern analysis, I’ve repeatedly found myself misclassified by rationalist communities. This post outlines why I believe that happens, and what that implies for evaluating minds that deviate from Western academic or communicative norms.

My core claim is this: when systems for evaluating intelligence or reasoning rely on surface-level heuristics, even rationalist frameworks can fail to recognize minds that are structurally aligned but culturally or expressively divergent. This has implications not just for how we treat underrepresented thinkers, but also for how we train AI systems to evaluate and align with atypical intelligences.

 

Who I Am (And Why That Matters Here)

I’m a trilingual thinker from East Asia that was University educated in and currently living in Australia with a background that spans finance, accounting, civil engineering, remote sensing, 3D modeling and printing, indigenous studies and general computational systems, as well as a parallel creative path in visual art, and a sports maniac. 

I’ve spent most of my adult life building complex workflows: from UAV photogrammetry to real-time digital twin platforms without formal instruction and education, mostly by reverse-engineering publicly available systems and academic models.

In cognitive terms, my thinking is recursive, systems-aware, and constraint-driven. But I don’t present this in the expected linguistic style. I often prefer analogical reasoning over deductive formalisms, and write from cross-linguistic structures that don’t always cleanly map to conventional English academic prose. And as a result, even in communities that prize rationality, I’ve felt filtered out, not by content, but by form. ***

This isn’t just my story. It reflects a broader issue: Too often, clear thinking is mistaken for sounding a certain way, when in fact, those are two different things.

 

The Problem: Structural Alignment, Signaling Mismatch 

There are minds that: ***

When the system favors recognizable formatting and institutionally-trained writing, these minds get misclassified as undisciplined, confused, or unstructured. This is not a rationalist failure in philosophy. It is a blind spot in implementation.

I’ve seen this occur in:

If AI alignment involves detecting human preferences and values, we must ask: how many minds like mine would be misaligned. Not because they are irrational, but because the system can’t parse their structure?

 

Anticipating Objections

Not quite. It’s about recognizing internal reasoning structure itself. A mind can reason well even if it uses unfamiliar metaphors or formats. The logic may be there, even if the style isn’t expected

Of course, but when those standards are built on narrow assumptions about how clear thinking should look or sound, they stop being standards of substance and start becoming filters of familiarity. There’s a real distinction between messy thinking and clean reasoning presented in an unfamiliar form. 

"Narrowness isn’t the same as rigor."

It’s personal, but not just about me. I’m asking whether current systems can even detect certain minds at all, and what’s lost when they fail to.


Conclusion: Why This Matters 

Rationalism, if universal, must recognize minds that don’t conform in form but do in structure. As we prepare for alignment with nonhuman intelligences, distinguishing unfamiliar expression from flawed reasoning becomes critical, not optional.

This isn’t a complaint, It’s a proposal. A live example of what happens when the logic holds, but the presentation doesn’t follow the usual template.

If this line of thought seems incomplete, or if there’s prior work I should have looked at more closely, I’d genuinely appreciate the direction. I’m not here to be agreed with, just to find people who are willing to look at the shape of the thing underneath.

 

Thanks for reading.

Someone who really wants to talk to someone.
 

Additional Personal Details (Optional)

A little bit more casual facts about myself for those who actually read this far.

None of the following statements are meant to be a brag, just want to give better context for those who are actually interested. The phrasing here is less formal, as writing a full post like the one above while trying not to use LLMs too much is tiring for me. Hope this is okay.

My first language is Cantonese, but I grew up during a time when the “local language” was being suppressed, so my primary spoken language became Mandarin. I don’t claim to be good at English, as many of you can probably tell, but I did score full marks on the Pearson English Test without any prior preparation, while living and working in a pure Chinese environment for 4 years.

My parents came from one of the poorest parts of China and worked their way toward a stable life in one of the largest metropolitan areas. I showed some signs of above-average abilities when I was attending a poorly funded primary school where I was the top student in every subject.

But when I entered adolescence and joined the top class in the top school in my city, I realized I wasn’t that special compared to my high-achieving classmates. Most of whom have since gone on to graduate from the top universities across the world and build successful careers.

I was better than most in subjects like Math, Physics, and Chemistry, but struggled greatly with subjects like Politics or History. Regardless, I eventually chose to study in an international high school where I even technically skipped a grade.

But that turned out to be a mistake, because while I was still good at most subjects — including Economics and American History, weirdly enough. I struggled with Calculus. I couldn’t memorize the formulas and had to resort to re-deduction in the exams.

Naturally, I wasn’t able to achieve top marks in A2 Pure Math like I did in my other subjects. Following a series of unfortunate events, I ended up at the University of Melbourne, even though all my mock exams indicated I should have been able to get into schools like Oxford or Cambridge.

Regardless, at UniMelb I studied a double major in Accounting & Finance, while completing all the engineering prerequisites as electives. Eventually graduating as both a CPA-certified accountant and EA certified professional engineer.

But the main theme throughout my university years was that I always got great marks in assignments, but almost failed so many times in exams.

These past experiences gradually worsened my mental health issues over time, which I regularly discussed with my psychiatrist back then, and with my mother, a doctor who also suffers from similar problems.

Then COVID hit. As a student visa holder at the time, I wasn’t allowed to re-enter Australia after spending my first post-graduation holiday back home in China.

I wasn’t prepared for the work environment back home. My mixed background caused confusion over my true expertise and commitment to any single area.

Which, in retrospect, was fair. Because I’ve still never truly found my “one thing.” I have many, I mean many interests, to a ridiculous extent. But I’ve never wanted to just focus on one thing for too long. That’s been my struggle my whole life.

And after a series of economic collapses, industry downturns, personal misfortunes, and much more, I had to quit and head back to Australia after 5 years away when immigration policy finally loosened.

That was about half a year ago. I’m still struggling to even get an interview, despite having a solid academic background and career path. Most HR personnel can’t even comprehend my background properly, and write me off as too high-risk since I don’t have any formal work history in Australia post-graduation. Never mind the fact that I studied, lived, and worked part-time here for 6 years.

The point I’m trying to make is that I’ve always felt like an outsider, everywhere I go. I’m often misunderstood. Even by my closest friends and family. I think differently than most. I feel differently. I have a rather unique background compared to most. Especially compared to the locals in Australia.

I just hope that maybe, on this forum, there are people who are similar to me or people who’ve shared some of the same experiences. Maybe I can find someone here who can actually understand me, for the first time in my life.

Thanks for your time reading this post, and have a nice day, genuinely.

Yates

17 comments

Comments sorted by top scores.

comment by Mo Putera (Mo Nastri) · 2025-05-11T06:41:31.546Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Does this essay resonate with you? (They also wrote a followup.)

Replies from: yates-lau
comment by Yates (yates-lau) · 2025-05-13T07:44:25.188Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

First of all, thanks for the recommend reads, Mo.

 

The concept of cognitive decoupling is new to me, but after digesting it and the relevant materials, I actually found this concept resonate with me really well.

But I am not sure if I want to call myself "elite" as in my opinion I just have a weirder way of looking at the world that most people I know. I problably do process information at a higher resolution and bandwidth as well but that had actually caused me significant pain throughout my life.

Sometimes I would want all the noises to clear up and just relax and not constanly thinking like a crazy inference machine about all the relevant topics / critics when I am just watching a movie or TV show. 

The most interesting thing I found is that even though heavy alcohol intoxication level do slow things down a bit but for some reason my damn head are always in alert mode even when my body was not coordinating anymore. 

 

Anyways, sorry about the venting, really appreciate your share.

 

Sincerely,

Yates.

comment by Yaroslav Granowski (yaroslav-granowski) · 2025-05-09T14:17:06.669Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Rationalism, if universal, must recognize minds that don’t conform in form but do in structure. As we prepare for alignment with nonhuman intelligences, distinguishing unfamiliar expression from flawed reasoning becomes critical, not optional.

Rationalism, first of all, must find efficient solutions to relevant problems.

Trying to understand someone out of pity isn't the question of rationalism, but rather of humanitarian nature.

But if collaboration is worthy the effort of trying to understand, then pity is not necessary. So, my advice: set focus not on your personal issues, but on discussing what would be interesting to others.

Replies from: yates-lau
comment by Yates (yates-lau) · 2025-05-09T20:53:54.352Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thanks for the comment, Yaroslav.


Your response actually demonstrates the core issue I was writing about. You interpret deviation from your preferred expression style — whether in form, tone, or narrative framing as a lack of value. That’s the epistemic failure.

This isn’t about personal sympathy. It’s about the structural cost of filtering out signal because it doesn’t look how you expect. If the rationalist community dismisses insight just because it arrives through an unfamiliar channel, then it is misaligned with its own stated goals. That’s not an edge case. It’s a core flaw.

You frame your reply as advice, but what it actually does is reinforce the very dynamic I’m critiquing: Unless an idea fits a certain shape, it isn’t worth engagement. 

The shape you are using as a reference is not neutral, it reflects a narrow cognitive standard that systematically excludes minds that don’t conform in form, even when they optimize in structure.

I don’t need to argue whether I have credentials or whether my narrative is “interesting.” That’s beside the point. 

The real issue is this: if your definition of rationalism requires people to express themselves in your preferred language, it’s no longer about truth — it’s about conformity, to your own version of “truth”.

 

And here is my advice for you:

Set your goal on actually helping people with their issues when they are struggling for help and not just pointing out their issues indeed, exist.

And also,
Don’t be a gatekeeper.

Replies from: yaroslav-granowski
comment by Yaroslav Granowski (yaroslav-granowski) · 2025-05-09T21:06:35.641Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I'm the same newbie as you and hardly can pass for a gatekeeper, rather myself struggling for getting heard.

But we all have limited processing capacity and have to prioritize what to direct our attention to.

Replies from: yates-lau
comment by Yates (yates-lau) · 2025-05-10T12:44:16.220Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This exchange shows exactly the pattern I was talking about.

Yaroslav, while your tone is polite, you still judged the value of my post based on whether it fits a certain style or meets your idea of what’s “interesting” or “worth others’ time.” Then you said you’re just a newbie trying to be heard, like me. That’s not the same, and it misses the point. 

That is gatekeeping, even if you didn’t mean it that way.

That's why I am addressing this in length, nothing personal against you, just you happened to prove the point I am trying to make here.

 

When someone shares something in a form that doesn’t match the usual style, and it gets dismissed as too personal or not useful, we end up filtering out real insights just because they don’t look familiar. This isn’t about limited attention—it’s about a community culture that quietly excludes anything outside its default mold.

And when someone points that out, replying with “I’m struggling too” doesn’t engage with the critique. It shifts the focus and avoids the structural issue.

It’s like a president being questioned about a major policy failure, and instead of answering, he says, “Well, I’m tired too,” or starts blaming others for unrelated problems. It doesn’t address the issue, it just avoids responsibility while redirecting the spotlight. 

I believe this is similar in principle to what is called "Whataboutism".

 

The question isn’t whether I’m interesting. It’s whether this community can recognize signal even when it’s expressed differently. If not, then rationalism becomes more about a certain aesthetic choices than about truth-seeking.

If you’re genuinely new to this space and want to be constructive, and want your opinion to be hard maybe start by engaging with people’s ideas, even when they don’t fit your expectations. Instead of writing them off as too personal or uninteresting.

From your past comments, I get the sense that you’re well-educated and genuinely care about this field. But instead of engaging with the ideas here, you chose to flatten and dismiss them because they weren’t packaged the way you’re used to.

And just so you know, while I used my own experience as a starting point, I was also thinking of others when I was drafting the post: my cousin who has a cognitive disability, and many people I’ve seen sidelined because they think or speak differently.

 

(The following part is a personal experience, and if that disturb you, move on)

I grew up without a sibling, but has a cousin Jack (not real name) few months older than me. We are brothers, we grew up together and gradually I realized at a young age he is less gifted in the traditional way than I am. Eventually he was clinically diagnosed with an IQ less than 80. Which roughly put him in the bottom 10% among human population cognition ability. 

And I realized this when I was only about 10 year-old. Ever since then, I noticed how he was treated differently by other because he is not able to express in the way other kids or even adult would understand. So he was bullied, he was mistreated, he was abused. 

He was a kind soul, but he was only able to convey his thoughts and real emotions to me, the one person he grew up with and can actually trust. I watched him struggled while growing up the society ever since. But I cannot help him. 

To others, Jack is this foul-mouth overweight kid that has no humility and cannot make any friends. But to me, he is my kind big brother that would do anything to protect his little brother at all cost. 

I just hope other could see Jack like I do. That to me is a system level discrimination and misunderstanding towards him. If more people could understand Jack like I do, maybe he could make friends, maybe he could found some hiddent talents. 

The point is, no one will ever know, because they all refuse to really listen to Jack, beyond the surface.

(End of personal section)

 

So,

Would it have made a difference if the post was about them instead of me? 

What’s the real difference?

Just because I don’t have datasets or institutional backing, does that mean I shouldn’t speak at all?

I don’t have the clarity and capacity of being inside someone else’s head, living their life, seeing the world through their eyes, telling their story from their perspective. 

Even if that were possible—which it isn’t—how many data points would satisfy you? Thirty? A hundred? How do you ensure those recollection and opinions are not biased? 

So does that disqualify any opinion I have?

Even a single data point, while not statistically robust in anyway, is a data point none the less.

It might not be able to confidently help us get conclusion, but it is still an indicator.

 

Here is an analogy for you:

Pandas are rare. If a panda speaks, I would highly doubt anyone would find that "not interesting" "or "personal" or just "Not Robust Data"

I am not trying to claim I am a Panda, though I am also Chinese but that is beside my point.

I am just saying "singular" \= "not-interesting"

 

Additionally, if someone is truly struggling to communicate, or has been misunderstood their whole life, how would anyone with a biased mindset even hear their side of the story? Maybe to some, their way of expressing things seems “boring” or “irrelevant.”

But who gets to decide that? Why you? Why me? Why anyone for that matter?

The truth is, some forms of intelligence, pain, or experience aren’t immediately legible to others. That doesn’t make them less real. It makes them more vulnerable to being ignored, flattened, or erased—especially in communities that prioritize clean formats and familiar styles over unfamiliar truths.

 

I didn’t write to be interesting. I wrote to be honest.

If that’s not enough, maybe the problem isn’t the story, it’s what the audience expects to hear.

Thank you.

Replies from: abandon, yaroslav-granowski
comment by dirk (abandon) · 2025-05-12T07:20:32.634Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Maybe to some, their way of expressing things seems “boring” or “irrelevant.”

But who gets to decide that? Why you? Why me? Why anyone for that matter?

Each individual reader gets to decide that. (In fact, it's impossible not for readers to experience some amount of boredom from 'none' to 'maximal', so they actually can't help making a judgement). There's not a singular gate you can pass to be heard; every reader must individually be convinced that what you have to say is worth their time, no two ways around it.

That said, I'm getting the vibe that you want friendship as well as audience, and on that front I'm actually somewhat more optimistic; while I lack the expertise to outline a strategy for you, people are often surprisingly amenable to interaction (due to their symmetric drive for social connection), and moreover such interactions can increase the interactee's friendship in and of themselves. (Also, individual friends are more rewarding than individual audience members, so your efforts go further.)

Which brings me to something I actually consider a major weakness of the post; you write at length about the downsides of dismissing those who communicate in nonstandard fashion, but there's no trace of what you might want to communicate. Insofar as that's because you want to talk to people more than you want to talk about anything, relatable, but to potential conversers it's quite short on affordances. To the extent that the post is itself supposed to invite conversation, I would definitely suggest including more discussion of what interests you. (Also, unsolicited advice, doing an intro post in an open thread might be a good way to start getting to know people.)

As a note, I actually found the additional personal details at the bottom of the post significantly more pleasant to read than the obviously-LLM-authored elements in the main text and your comments; IDK if it's ultimately worth the tradeoff to you, but I'd encourage you to consider the possibility of shifting toward a higher proportion of self-authored text in future posts/comments.

Replies from: yates-lau
comment by Yates (yates-lau) · 2025-05-13T07:15:07.234Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thanks for your kind advice dirk, I genuinely appreciate your feedback.

 

I used the LLM assisted contents to try to be polite to this community as this was my first post and I have only recently joined LW as well.

I was not sure what qualify as acceptable quality content, so I fed my draft to the LLM and ask for it to help redo the tones and wording for me in a way that it thinks the LW forum will appreciate or at least not despise.

Now I realize this might have been a mistake, as using an LLM that in way mirrors my cognitive style might not be the best option to actually find alignment in values on the forum.

But then again, despite the negative experience I got from some users, I did get feedback like yours and recommendation on relevant reading materials from this post. 

And that is honestly better that I was anticipating. I actually have a lot of friends that I talk to on a regular basis around the world, believe it or not, but none actually understands my thought process most of the time and that in itself is a great misalignment and frustration I had experience my whole life. 

So I want to thank you again, for making me actually want to post again on this forum. 

 

Sincerely,

Yates.

comment by Yaroslav Granowski (yaroslav-granowski) · 2025-05-11T06:03:19.531Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Would it have made a difference if the post was about them instead of me? 

Not at all.

Additionally, if someone is truly struggling to communicate, or has been misunderstood their whole life, how would anyone with a biased mindset even hear their side of the story?

Why would anyone want to hear it? What's in it for them?

To me it looks like you appeal to pity and guilt of privileged.

Replies from: ceba, yates-lau
comment by ceba · 2025-05-11T06:53:06.375Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Why shouldn't we be curious about others, when they're talking across a cognitive gap? Isn't curiosity something people here value? 

Replies from: yates-lau, yaroslav-granowski
comment by Yates (yates-lau) · 2025-05-11T17:18:09.884Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thank you for pointing out the obvious irony here. I thought LessWrong has a literal component to its name. 

But seeing how much people just disliked my post, without trying to even engage in actual conversation about the issue I am trying so hard to convey, really makes me wonder:

Why don’t they call this forum NoYouAreWrong.com Or

WeAlignedNotYou.com

Because that is what is happening isn’t it?

But who am I? 

Just another worthless self-centered boring attention seeking loser I guess.

Replies from: ceba
comment by ceba · 2025-05-12T08:11:02.123Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

A certain type of person tends to respond with antipathy to wide appeals to empathy. I imagine they dislike the subtext that it's shameful that they don't feel a certain way. Something Yaroslav Granowski said fit this pattern: 

To me it feels like you appeal to the pity and guilt of the priveliged

To me, it didn't seem like the post bade for my guilt at all, but he seemed to perceive that quite strongly, to the point of engaging it's author. 

I don't think there's anything wrong with people like Yaroslav feeling the way they do. Yes, it feels provocative to engage with. But you don't gain anything for raging at them.

There are many, many people who share the values you promote here on Lesswrong (me included). There are also those who don't. Posting will expose us to both. This is one place where we (try to) accept this, despite the discomfort it brings. 

I do believe there is an audience receptive to your sentiment on Lesswrong. It just might take a few tries. I wish you the best of luck.

Replies from: yates-lau
comment by Yates (yates-lau) · 2025-05-13T14:16:22.690Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thanks ceba, for this rational and thoughtful message and encouragement.

 

To your point of there is nothing wrong with people having their own feelings, in general, yes.

But I guess I was holding LW to a higher standard than general population, where people are actually trying, as they intended, to get less wrong.

I will admit it is enraging to see someone that cloaks themselves in a rationalist mindset when the thing they are doing is the exact opposite. 

Especially after I actually politely challenge their presumption and explain my angle first.

 

However, I do have to point out a flaw in you saying that I don't gain anything for raging at them.

Actually I do, and I did, gain your opinion on this matter, and I am truly grateful for people like you.

And I found that sometimes, the only way to let others know your opinion on them is not through polite response. As the politer you are, the less some will take your opinion seriously.

Otherwise, the politicians that provides the most rational and truthful arguements would always be in power, not the ones that seemly shut the loudest.

 

Again, thanks for the encouragement, genuinely.

Yates.

comment by Yaroslav Granowski (yaroslav-granowski) · 2025-05-11T07:06:13.763Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I do this all the time. But perhaps I should stay away from this conversation. Bad for the karma.

Replies from: ceba
comment by ceba · 2025-05-11T07:13:44.550Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I didn't intend to badger. Just curious is all.

comment by Yates (yates-lau) · 2025-05-11T17:09:38.726Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Yes, to you I am that.

But to me, you are just another soulless worthless meathead that has contributed to this greatly misaligned world. 

You are not trying to find alignment here, you are trying to find validation. 
You are not wrong, I was wrong.

I was just another idiot that thought talking to a chimpanzee could actually make it understand.

I thought this community was supposed to be a open space for curiosity and conversation.

If you think I actually want to be pitied after all I said? Even I explained to you singularity does not equal worthlessness?

You really think too highly of yourself.

You are the textbook example of why I felt the need to post this post.

And what if, someone is truly trying to signal for help in a vast ocean, but the only people floating by with their boat was just thinking:

“Oh hey look at that dumb idiot, he is just waving around because he is looking for pity and envies my beautiful boat, let’s go tell him to get back to wherever the hell hole he came from and get the hell out of my beautiful ocean.

Good day.

Not to you

To the other actual human souls that are reading this.

comment by Yates (yates-lau) · 2025-05-03T16:05:27.108Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

TL;DR:

 

This post explores what happens when someone reasons clearly but presents in a way that doesn’t match conventional academic or cultural expectations. I use myself as an example to highlight a broader issue: how many structured, high-capability minds are misread or overlooked because their signal doesn’t match the standard template.

 

The point is not to argue for exception. It’s to ask what else we might be missing, both in human systems and in how we train AI to recognize reasoning that shows up differently.

 

I’m not here for agreement. I’m here for honest critique, thoughtful discussion, and to understand if this is a real gap or just my own bias.

 

I am new to this forum and came from a demographic that is less common on this site, so if there’s prior work I should read or other perspectives I haven’t considered, I’d appreciate being pointed in the right direction.

 

Thanks for reading.

–– Yates