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comment by PeterMcCluskey · 2021-04-18T02:02:42.847Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I see important benefits, and big risks.

What stops the government from taking more money in ways that it doesn't classify as taxes? E.g. civil forfeiture?

It could increase hostility to new immigrants. That might be solved by taxing people when they immigrate. I'm unsure how to evaluate the effects of those taxes.

the one main reason to expect the government to shrink is that it acts irresponsibly and politicians take out debt with no good plan to pay it back. However, if this happens, shouldn’t we celebrate that the government is shrinking?

I don't know. Does it imply that the government gets taken over by a government that can afford more military spending?

comment by ChristianKl · 2021-04-17T22:48:41.731Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

You make it sound like the only effect of the government owning a sizeable percentage of the companies in a economy would be that the government gets revenue. In reality it also creates a strong incentive for the government to make sure that the companies it owns can outcompete the other companies. That likely has bad effects on the quality of the laws. 

Replies from: matthew-barnett
comment by Matthew Barnett (matthew-barnett) · 2021-04-17T23:32:27.309Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The government might have an incentive to outcompete other companies, but the strength of this incentive is unclear to me. The US government already competes with the private sector in, e.g. delivering mail, but this hasn't lead to the end of FedEx. Unlike private companies, the government generally isn't profit-maximizing in any normal sense, and so it's not clear why they'd benefit from monopolistic practices.

Replies from: Dustin
comment by Dustin · 2021-04-17T23:45:31.638Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I do not think the government currently has anything to gain by out-competing FedEx.  It seems like you're just kinda just re-asserting the very thing that ChristianKl is questioning.

Replies from: matthew-barnett
comment by Matthew Barnett (matthew-barnett) · 2021-04-18T00:16:40.253Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Can you clarify what your point is? ChristianKl said that my proposal "creates a strong incentive for the government to make sure that the companies it owns can outcompete the other companies." I partially agreed but gave one reason to disagree; namely, that the government isn't profit-maximizing. 

You seem to be asserting the opposite of what ChristianKl said, that is, that the government has no incentive to outcompete other companies. Can you explain why?

Replies from: Dustin
comment by Dustin · 2021-04-18T03:10:39.972Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

that the government isn't profit-maximizing. 

 

I'm saying that that is the case currently and agreeing with ChristianKI that that incentives pressure against that under your regime.

  1. If, as you are proposing, being not-profit-maximizing is the reason USPS hasn't driven FedEx out of business 
  2. and being not-profit-maximizing is the result of current incentives
  3. and someone claims, as ChristianKI does, that the incentives for being not-profit-maximizing change under your proposed take-the-wealth regime
  4. then the evidential weight of USPS not driving FedEx out of business under the current regime is weakened quite a bit since the very thing under question is that that will remain the case.
comment by River (frank-bellamy) · 2021-04-18T02:00:42.518Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

In 2018, US households' total wealth was $98 trillion. Federal government spending in 2018 was $4.094 trillion. If we take the standard investment advice and assume that the government can spend 4% of its savings each year, that means the government would need to acquire $102.35 trillion in this one-time taxation. The math does not work out. (I picked 2018 simply because it was the year for which I found total wealth quickest in a google search. The federal budget has only grown since then.)

Replies from: matthew-barnett
comment by Matthew Barnett (matthew-barnett) · 2021-04-18T04:38:30.170Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The last section of my post comes to roughly the same conclusion.

comment by jimrandomh · 2021-04-18T02:43:39.650Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This does not work without a drastic reduction in total government expenditure. The reason is that the majority of "wealth" is in the form of individuals' earnings potential, but this can't be owned (or rather, owning a share of someone's earnings potential is just income tax under a different name).

Replies from: matthew-barnett
comment by Matthew Barnett (matthew-barnett) · 2021-04-18T04:39:43.791Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This does not work without a drastic reduction in total government expenditure.

I agree, though I'm not sure whether this will always be true. Look at the last section of my post.

the majority of "wealth" is in the form of individuals' earnings potential

I meant wealth as in physical assets, especially capital.