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comment by Matt Goldenberg (mr-hire) · 2020-11-30T02:03:21.808Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It seems like there are easier things than ring signatures to test your theory, like creating a social media account and giving the password to 20 of your friends. Might be a fun thing to try and see what you learn

comment by ejacob · 2020-11-29T21:51:17.518Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I've never heard of ring signatures before 60 seconds ago, but it seems like it would require a preexisting agreement among a group of people to create and use some way to 'endorse' messages with their signatures. If this understanding is correct, it doesn't solve the spiral of silence at all, since you'd have to get the same people that all of the emailers are afraid of to agree to it.

Replies from: crl826, mike_hawke
comment by crl826 · 2020-11-29T22:12:50.785Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Correct. Technology can only solve a problem people want solved. If people are being bullied into silence, the bullies aren't going to let this happen.  

Heck, they already have a way of silencing support for any new plan...

comment by mike_hawke · 2020-11-29T22:38:00.036Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"At all"? Surely you exaggerate. 

What if all those emailers form an anonymity set with one another? Surely that does more than nothing for preference falsification. The more people in the set, and the more overlap among their struggles, the less preference obscurity there will be, right?

Replies from: ejacob
comment by ejacob · 2020-11-30T04:14:10.638Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think a precise way to explain why I felt like adding "at all" is because I had already restricted myself to thinking about the most extreme spiral-of-silence cases. The Evergreen State-Bret Weinstein fiasco is a salient example. These kinds of situations are where a solution to spiral of silence-type phenomena would have the greatest impact, but I suppose there could be cases where the group dynamic is not as hostile, but still unforgiving enough that people will essentially want to test out ideas in front of their peers before publicly endorsing them, as ring signatures allow. I don't know where such a group could be found or created.

I guess I am having difficulty imagining a group that would be heterodox enough to agree to talk about whatever "unpopular" ideas get endorsed on their ring signature, but would still be orthodox enough that individuals would feel the need to use the ring system in the first place - it seems to me like that would require holding contradictory beliefs about how one's peers would react if you expressed support for a "toxic" idea. I've noticed I have an easier time than most being that person though (and if I'm totally honest, it's a part of my personality that I like, and I probably consciously turn it up), so maybe this is a failure of imagination on my part.

Replies from: mike_hawke
comment by mike_hawke · 2020-11-30T05:17:24.846Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I'm not sure I quite understand you, but I think you may be underestimating the protocol.

Wikipedia says:

In the original paper, Rivest, Shamir, and Tauman described ring signatures as a way to leak a secret. For instance, a ring signature could be used to provide an anonymous signature from "a high-ranking White House official", without revealing which official signed the message. Ring signatures are right for this application because the anonymity of a ring signature cannot be revoked, and because the group for a ring signature can be improvised.

It seems to me that this should straightforwardly generalize from the White House staff to Evergreen professors, Megacorp employees, etc. The only requirement is that there are enough public keys available that you can put together a decent crowd to hide in. If you know someone's public key, they cannot stop you from signing their name next to yours (which leaves both of you with plausible deniability).

If you run an organization, you can just require that all employees generate a key pair. Boom. Spiral-proof organization, right? The emperor of such an organization is less likely to end up walking around naked, right?

Replies from: crl826
comment by crl826 · 2020-11-30T05:34:16.170Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

If you run an organization

 

That's the thing, this is all based on the assumption that the people running an organization want people to express themselves. 

That is a very poor assumption in a lot of organizations. Silence spirals gotta start somewhere.