Those of you with lots of meditation experience: How did it influence your understanding of philosophy of mind and topics such as qualia?
post by SpectrumDT · 2025-01-28T14:29:47.034Z · LW · GW · 2 commentsThis is a question post.
Contents
Answers 9 lsusr 4 Gunnar_Zarncke 4 sapphire 3 Curt Tigges None 2 comments
This post is inspired by the post "Why it's so hard to talk about Consciousness [LW · GW]" by Rafael Harth. In that post, Harth says that the people who participate in debates about consciousness can be roughly divided into two "camps":
Camp #1 tends to think of consciousness as a non-special high-level phenomenon. Solving consciousness is then tantamount to solving the Meta-Problem of consciousness, which is to explain why we think/claim to have consciousness. In other words, once we've explained the full causal chain that ends with people uttering the sounds kon-shush-nuhs, we've explained all the hard observable facts, and the idea that there's anything else seems dangerously speculative/unscientific. No complicated metaphysics is required for this approach.
Conversely, Camp #2 is convinced that there is an experience thing that exists in a fundamental way. There's no agreement on what this thing is – some postulate causally active non-material stuff, whereas others agree with Camp #1 that there's nothing operating outside the laws of physics – but they all agree that there is something that needs explaining. Therefore, even if consciousness is compatible with the laws of physics, it still poses a conceptual mystery relative to our current understanding. A complete solution (if it is even possible) may also have a nontrivial metaphysical component.
One possible avenue of explanation for this (as discussed extensively in the comment section under Harth's post) is that different people experience their own minds differently, for all sorts of reasons.
I know some people here have a lot of experience with meditation and have experienced major results and "insights" from it. Moreover, as far as I know, most western philosophers of mind are not expert meditators. It is conceivable that meditators have access to information about the human mind which most philosophers of mind lack.
So I am interested in hearing from those of you who have a decent amount of meditation experience: How have your personal experiences influenced your understanding of western philosophy of mind. Not only on the topic of qualia; that was just the example that motivated me to post the question. For example, did anyone move from Harth's camp #1 to camp #2 or vice versa after meditation experiences, or did any of your other philosophical positions shift?
(I would ask this in a Buddhist forum, and I probably will, but I fear that most people will say "stop doing philosophy of mind and go follow the Buddhist suttas"...)
I myself have about 700 hours of meditation experience, and while I have gained some useful skills (mainly emotion handling), I would not say that I have gained any significant insight yet.
Answers
I have significant [LW · GW] meditative insight [LW · GW].
I feel that the quotes you use to describe Camp #1 and Camp #2 are both word salad. The Camp #1 quote is like this post [? · GW] Eliezer Yudkowsky wrote 17 years ago, except difficult to understand[1]. Camp #2 asserts the existence of something fundamental, and then follows it with "There's no agreement on what this thing is". I feel that these postulations are not well-defined enough to deserve refutation.
How have your personal experiences influenced your understanding of western philosophy of mind. Not only on the topic of qualia; that was just the example that motivated me to post the question. For example, did anyone move from Harth's camp #1 to camp #2 or vice versa after meditation experiences, or did any of your other philosophical positions shift?
I feel that the mainstream western philosophy of mind is a train wreck, and that this is obvious to anybody who is half-decent at writing clearly. This includes both Eliezer Yudkowsky and Paul Graham, neither of whom (to my knowledge) have significant meditative insight. This question is like asking "Did you stop eating garbage out of the local Safeway dumpster after you learned to cook?" I was never eating it to begin with.
To be fair, Buddhist metaphysics isn't any better. It's not uncommon for meditators with deep insight to also believe in levitation and reincarnation.
I think what you're really trying to ask is "Do you have any personal observations via insight which contradict a major philosophical school?" Yes, if you get enough meditative insight you'll transcend the concept of a self. Anything system of philosophy that begins with "I think, therefore I am" is broken at almost the axiomatic level.
When I say it is "difficult to understand", I do not mean that this is difficult to understand like math i.e. because the ideas are fundamentally difficult. I mean that it is difficult to understand because it is written badly. It uses terms like "special" without defining them. Socrates was complaining about this sort of philosophical malpractice over 2,000 years ago. ↩︎
↑ comment by Mitchell_Porter · 2025-01-29T04:16:50.257Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
if you get enough meditative insight you'll transcend the concept of a self
What is the notion of self that you transcend, what does it mean to transcend it, and how does meditation cause this to happen?
Replies from: Gunnar_Zarncke, SpectrumDT↑ comment by Gunnar_Zarncke · 2025-01-29T13:09:59.867Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
What is the notion of self that you transcend
It is the Conventional Intuitive Self-Model [? · GW] that Steven Byrnes describes in detail.
Replies from: lsusr↑ comment by SpectrumDT · 2025-01-29T12:26:57.521Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I speak not from experience here, but according to my limited understanding, the idea is that most or all ideas of the "self" are more-or-less arbitrary abstractions like the Ship of Theseus.
Via western philosophy of mind you can gain some understanding of this idea and convince yourself that it is probably true, but via meditation AFAIU it becomes possible to observe this directly in your own mind.
The benefits of "transcending" the concept of self, I believe, is that you suffer less and become happier.
Replies from: lsusr↑ comment by SpectrumDT · 2025-01-29T12:23:40.599Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Thanks!
You may want to have a look at Aella's survey/interviews of meditators and her writeup of it.
↑ comment by SpectrumDT · 2025-01-29T12:32:01.291Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Neat! Thanks!
I have meditated quite a lot over the last fifteen years. My understanding is that Buddhist meditation practices are intended to reduce suffering and promote equanimity. The main proposed method of action is reducing attachment. They are effective in this regard. They are not useful for doing western philosophy.
I have perhaps 1000-1500 hours of meditation experience and have done a decent amount of psychedelics as well. I don't think meditation has given me any understanding of the hard problem of consciousness. Meditation has helped me to see different possibilities in terms of content, shape, and phenomena within the conscious space, and perhaps helped me to understand the shape of it better, but I don't really see it helping much to bridge the scientific/philosophical gap. Best I can say is that "yeah, it sort of feels like what Epistemic Depth Theory and probably Global Neuronal Workspace Theory would suggest."
To actually get what you're looking for, I think you'd need to do more studies on people who are experiencing different mental states, including those found in meditation, while using scientific instruments to probe the mind (fMRI, or BCIs--ideally much better ones than those that now exist). I think you'd need to do causal experiments specifically, not just correlational ones.
For that, you need those improved scientific instruments as well as people who are trained to interospect and report very fine-grained details of their experiences.
FWIW, I'm confused by the difference between Camp 1 and Camp 2. The crux seems to be the definition of "special." My own views on consciousness are close to physicalism (which might be Camp 2?), but I do think solving the Meta-Problem of Consciousness to sufficient depth has a good chance of leading us to those physical correlates or generators of consciousness.
2 comments
Comments sorted by top scores.
comment by Rafael Harth (sil-ver) · 2025-01-29T16:23:01.216Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Just chiming in to say that I'm also interested in the correlation between camps and meditation. Especially from people who claim to have experienced the jhanas.
comment by sapphire (deluks917) · 2025-01-29T08:37:43.040Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
You meditated for 700 hours and don't feel like you gained any 'insight'! That is a lot of hours. Why did you keep going?