Progress = Fewer Bad Moments
post by Chipmonk · 2025-05-07T17:33:00.055Z · LW · GW · 9 commentsThis is a link post for https://chrislakin.blog/progress
Contents
Progress reduces the FREQUENCY of symptoms, NOT always their intensity Does anxiety behave this way too? None 9 comments
Most of my clients start with a tiny misconception that can wreck their progress.
Whether they’re working on anxiety, insecurity, confidence, etc., they picture progress like this:
They expect progress to feel like getting over a cold: each day the discomfort eases a little more. Sure, there may be some dips, but it never snaps back to first-day intensity. You mostly just keep improving until, one morning, you barely remember being sick.
Not only is this picture wrong, but it can set back your growth. When you believe progress is a climb upward, then a rough day or rough week feels like proof that your efforts haven’t helped at all.
We need a better model of progress, one that possibly looks like this:
Progress reduces the FREQUENCY of symptoms, NOT always their intensity
Normally I’d use self-loathing, social anxiety, etc. as an example, but I’m actually going to start with emotional chronic pain because the pattern is easier to see.
I had chronic neck/back pain for years. Eventually I noticed that my neck was tense in particular emotional situations. I worked on defusing those situations, and once I did it right, I experienced quick relief: “Turning my neck hasn’t been this smooth in years” reads that journal entry.
A few months later, I began to notice moments where my neck was painfully tense…again? I was immediately worried: Is all of my progress fake??? Is it regressing??? Is this all for nothing??? Should I give up????
But before I gave up, I began logging every moment of tension and quickly saw a new pattern. The original trigger—situations where I felt I wasn’t expressing myself socially—was mostly gone, but now I saw the tension triggered in other situations, such as when I thought I wasn’t being “productive enough”, when I was simply walking or talking, and in a few other scenarios. These were probably always triggers—but they were a lot less frequent than the ones I had already defused, so it made sense that I hadn’t noticed until now.
First lesson this showed me: Even though I had defused the most common triggers of my neck tension, that didn’t mean I had defused all of the triggers. The symptom had many triggers, each of which had to be unlearned separately.
The second, more important, lesson: Progress looked vastly differently than I expected. I expected my neck pain would roughly gradually improve over time. So once my neck had been relaxed for a few weeks, I was in the clear. Right?
Wrong. When my neck tension triggers, it often triggers just as painfully.
The progress was NOT that my neck tension became less intense at its peak.
The progress was that my neck tension became LESS FREQUENT.
To decrease the frequency of my neck tension further, I detected and defused additional triggers.
To this day, I continue to detect and defuse more situations that trigger my neck tension.
Does anxiety behave this way too?
It’s not just chronic pain that’s like this. Symptoms like anxiety, social insecurity, self-doubt, validation-seeking behavior, insecurity, etc. all follow this pattern.
For the first 1-2 years of working on my anxiety, it wasn’t that my anxiety became less intense… it’s that it became less common. But I’ve defused enough situations at this point—hundreds—that my anxiety hardly ever triggers anymore. I couldn’t tell you the last time I had it bad.
And it’s not just me: This pattern of decreasing symptom frequency rather than symptom intensity has been true for virtually every person I’ve helped.
In a post soon, I’ll share how I became significantly more secure by defusing ~500 triggers.
9 comments
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comment by Kaj_Sotala · 2025-05-07T19:47:47.813Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
My earlier post saying the same thing [LW · GW]
[EDIT: To be clear, this is not a criticism, this is expressing support for this post! The same point getting communicated in many different ways is good and important. [LW · GW]]
Replies from: Chipmonk, danielechlin↑ comment by danielechlin · 2025-05-08T02:59:36.414Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I think they're saying opposite things.
Chipmonk: progress = bad days become sparse
Kaj: progress = have your first good day
Kaj really doesn't address what progress looks like after that "1%" is achieved. It's "the beginning of the point where you can make it progressively less" with "more time and work." Okay -- so should we look at progress like the sawtooth graph or like Chipmonk's polkadots calendar? Kaj doesn't answer that all so they can't really take credit for Chipmonk's piece.
You can view them as a complement but I think there's other flaws in Kaj's piece.
- all the examples given, e.g. procrastination and anger, are problems people who have them usually have < 100% of the time anyway
- very unclear what all the hard work you're supposed to do is after you get to your 1%. Presumably that's the hard part, or there wouldn't exist people who get angry 99% of the time but not 100% of the time.
- unclear the role of time/frequency -- is the idea to give it 100 days to try to get 1 good day, then commence the rapid personal growth phase immediately? do you give it another 100 days to see if you're growing?
- also like doesn't Kaj's first paragraph invalidate the rest? If you're working better but only because you were sleeping better and now you have to wake up earlier I don't see why we would say we made "1% progress but were yet unaware our true problem was sleep health." The problem won't get easier until you get your root cause.
↑ comment by Kaj_Sotala · 2025-05-08T06:18:49.493Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Okay -- so should we look at progress like the sawtooth graph or like Chipmonk's polkadots calendar? Kaj doesn't answer that all so they can't really take credit for Chipmonk's piece.
That's a weird way of putting it. I was expressing support for Chipmonk's point, not "taking credit for it".
Plus I did say things like, "it comes back, seemingly as bad as before" which implies the polkadots calendar. If I'd said "it comes back, though steadily milder", then that would be the sawtooth graph. Likewise, I mentioned the possibility that you "managed to eliminate one of the triggers for the thing, but it turned out that there were other triggers", which is the same mechanism that Chris discusses and which would have a polkadot-like effect. (I did also mention decreasing the severity, but Chris strictly speaking doesn't say that the severity never decreases either: "For the first 1-2 years of working on my anxiety, it wasn’t that my anxiety became less intense...")
all the examples given, e.g. procrastination and anger, are problems people who have them usually have < 100% of the time anyway
The intended meaning was "100% of the circumstances that would usually trigger the issue". So sure, nobody is always angry, but they might previously get angry 100% of the time that someone criticizes them, or procrastinate 100% of the time when they need to do their laundry, or whatever.
you're working better but only because you were sleeping better
Note that I didn't say the problem got better because you were sleeping better, I said that it got worse because you were sleeping worse. It could be that previously something else was better while sleep remained the same. Many psychological issues are affected by something like "your overall wellbeing" which has multiple inputs.
comment by silentbob · 2025-05-09T19:52:20.332Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
My girlfriend once came across this metaphor of "spiraling upwards". Whatever you're struggling with, you'll have low points again with near certainty, but ideally you have learned something in the meantime that improves some aspect of your situation or your ability to bounce back. I think it's a nice way to look at things when it's true. Generally, dealing with setbacks seems like one of the crucial parts of making progress in any area.
comment by JustisMills · 2025-05-08T02:28:55.962Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Yeah, this is often the shape, and famously so for grief (the ball in a box metaphor captures something similar).
I'm not sure the idea of steady progress is so bad as to be net harmful, though. The mental posture of "oh, nah, I'm way better about that now" can often help prevent a would-be major relapse from getting to that point. And in fact the assertion can be true! Like, lots of people binge drink excessively in their early 20s, get a handle on it, and never get blackout drunk again.
I do think this is a good concept for the toolkit, though. Many forms of mental distress do fit.
Replies from: Chipmonk↑ comment by Chipmonk · 2025-05-08T04:58:09.534Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I'm not sure the idea of steady progress is so bad as to be net harmful, though.
You say this and then I don't understand your explanation. Could you re-explain?
Replies from: JustisMills↑ comment by JustisMills · 2025-05-08T14:38:47.463Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Yep! I see (at least) two cases. I'll give an example of each.
- Person is overwhelmed by grief by the passing of a loved one. The intensity of the grief doesn't really decrease, but the frequency does; at first, they become sad almost all the time, and eventually, only when something really specific reminds them of that loved one. In this case, it's better to think of progress as a matter of reduced frequency over time, and expecting it to hurt less when it does hurt would lead to confusion.
- Person spirals out terribly into certain kinds of anxiety loops, pretty often, including meta-level anxiety about the loops themselves. They learn effective techniques for dealing with this, such that they consistently catch the loops earlier. Part of the social technology they use is "I've gotten better at this, and won't let this escalate into a panic attack". If instead their mantra was more like "I'm going to feel just as bad as before, but that's okay and still progress because it happens less often", the anxiety loop might take that as permission to escalate.
I think addiction-related problems often take the shape of #2, where "ah, it's been a while, it's in my nature to relapse SOMETIMES, I'm still making progress" can be counterproductive. Other things too, where even a single bad relapse are extra bad, like serious anger management cases, it's probably better to just confidently (and truthfully) tell oneself "no, I'm qualitatively better, and am not going back to the lows of x years ago, even temporarily".
That's why I think "progress is THIS and not THAT" isn't quite right. It's more like different tools for different situations.