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frontier64's Shortform 2021-08-28T20:53:55.869Z

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Comment by frontier64 on Most arguments for AI Doom are either bad or weak · 2024-10-13T16:59:14.944Z · LW · GW

Ok, then my answer is read the sequences.

Comment by frontier64 on Most arguments for AI Doom are either bad or weak · 2024-10-13T13:34:25.712Z · LW · GW

Have you read the sequences? My response depends on whether you have or haven't.

Comment by frontier64 on Any Trump Supporters Want to Dialogue? · 2024-10-12T14:14:40.887Z · LW · GW

Why are you asking this question in a rationality forum and using language that indicates your opinion is based on rationality when it's clearly not and you admit as such?

but if I'm honest, my direct reason for not wanting to vote for him is a strong negative association I've built with him over the past 8 years. Now, why do I have that negative association? Well, hard to know 100%, but I suspect it's his divisive rhetoric.

If you want some good rhetoric to show you why people vote Trump then go to a local Trump rally near you. You'll see that the people in attendance are the nicest in America and you'll have a fun time listening to an electrifying speaker. If you go to 1 or 2 rallies it'll probably change your vibes and then you'll understand.

My personal, rational reasons why I will be voting for Trump for the 3rd time are:

  • Trump is less likely to do pure evil stuff like this: https://x.com/cremieuxrecueil/status/1844856866192363630, https://www.justice.gov/crt/media/1373236/dl

  • Trump talks about diplomacy with other nations in a way that makes sense. We protect american interests and if those interests align with other countries we work with them. If the interests don't align then we work whatever we can out through trade. I don't want to hear about how my country "stands by" other countries. I want to know that the person in the white house is at least trying to support American interests.

  • Trump will be better for lowering taxes. Taxes are evil and destroying all progress. The government has gotten to the point where it's taking virtually all non-necessary, and now even necessary, profits to support its bloated corpose. More than half the people in America are reliant on stealing large portions of the income from the top 5% of the tax bracket. This is not how a real civilization should operate.

Edit: and I’m open to whatever response.

Comment by frontier64 on Parasites (not a metaphor) · 2024-08-11T14:49:29.891Z · LW · GW

My whole family takes a round of ivermectin every year or so for the same reason. Anti parasitics don’t really have bad side effects (often have good side effects such as -inflammation) so it’s just positives all around.

Comment by frontier64 on Recommendation: reports on the search for missing hiker Bill Ewasko · 2024-08-04T00:19:37.741Z · LW · GW

Thank you for the post, I'll be watching the video later. The first thought that comes to my mind is why wasn't there a helicopter search in the area? The paucity of trees on the terrain seems to be perfect for helicopter reconnaissance but I see no mention of that in this post.

Comment by frontier64 on frontier64's Shortform · 2024-06-29T21:54:45.036Z · LW · GW

Real money prediction markets are biased towards outcomes that increase utility of the bettors.

For an example: there is a prediction market on who will win the presidential race, Alice or Bob. Currently the market sits at 50-50 and the payout for $1 on Alice is $2 and the same for Bob. Our bettor, Charlie, has internal odds that are the same as the market, however he also believes with an incredibly high certainty that if Bob wins the race then the buying power of a dollar will double. Therefore $1 on Bob is worth $4 if Bob wins, but the same $1 on Alice will only be worth $2. Because of this Charlie will bet the market all the way to 66-33 favoring Bob. This is despite the fact that his internal probability that Bob wins is only 50-50.

Comment by frontier64 on Environmentalism in the United States Is Unusually Partisan · 2024-06-02T22:17:21.359Z · LW · GW

I’m surprised that anyone here cares about environmentalism. Aren’t any of the far reaching effects of what we do today with the environment insignificant compared to the development of ai? Friendly ai will be able to solve any of the pollution issues we’re creating today. Unless you think we’re going to successfully pause ai for hundreds of years then I just don’t see the point in making life worse for present humans for some speculative benefit to the future population.

Comment by frontier64 on My Clients, The Liars · 2024-04-06T15:52:14.195Z · LW · GW

Yeah openly admitting that I have a strong case is good for credibility building. One of the most annoying things is when defense attorneys ask,

"Why is Alice is getting a sweetheart plea deal and Bob is getting jail time when they both committed the same crime and both have minimal criminal history???"

"Uh, Alice's case is almost purely circumstantial while Bob is caught on camera, that's the difference."

"But they both did the same bad thing!"

"Do you understand how plea deals work?"

"[Some nonsense showing that the defense attorney indeed doesn't know how plea deals work]"

Comment by frontier64 on A Teacher vs. Everyone Else · 2024-03-21T19:24:36.371Z · LW · GW

I thought the first quote was tongue in cheek and implied that teachers want stupid pupils.

Comment by frontier64 on My Clients, The Liars · 2024-03-19T19:47:51.576Z · LW · GW

I’m the first one

Comment by frontier64 on My Clients, The Liars · 2024-03-19T19:45:53.525Z · LW · GW

Yeah I stupidly left out the key point of my comment. Added it in edit.

Comment by frontier64 on My Clients, The Liars · 2024-03-19T16:22:10.598Z · LW · GW

I think you’re understating how helpful it can be for a client if their pd strongly advocates for them. When a pd is telling me about all these mitigating circumstances and asking me to drop the jail because the perp has kids and the kids are here in court and he’s the sole bread winner and please just walk back for a second and speak to them and look one of your witnesses has two armed robbery felonies so I might actually win this case; that affects me. I like to pretend that it doesn’t but I’ve come down on offers many times after the pd goes to bat for their client. But that’s only because they don’t go to bat for every single client. Sure they ask on most every client for a lower offer but 90% of the time it’s just an ask without much substance. When they’re going to bat for the guy it makes me think that hey maybe the perp isn’t really that terrible and if I can stop from getting bothered then just drop a year of jail.

Edit: forgot to mention that the perp should lie to his pd because on the off chance the pd believes it then the pd might go to bat for him more because he’s actually innocent (rare). Because the pd’s that go to bat the same amount for every client, I don’t care about what they say at all unless it’s a true evidentiary issue.

Comment by frontier64 on My Clients, The Liars · 2024-03-19T15:03:36.141Z · LW · GW

You can probably walk into a random law office and ask the attorney to tell you war stories. There’s a lot of supply for that and very little demand.

Comment by frontier64 on When Should Copyright Get Shorter? · 2024-02-19T18:44:29.844Z · LW · GW

It’s fairly rare for a patent to be granted and only have a few years left, and if it does that’s typically because of patent owner delays rather than uspto delays. The US law specifically gives you extra time post grant based on uspto delays. Also US patent holders have access to pre-issue, post-publication damages for cases where infringers had actual notice of the published patent application.

But even given that, I am 100% in agreement that patent terms should be extended.

Comment by frontier64 on If Clarity Seems Like Death to Them · 2024-02-19T18:35:10.946Z · LW · GW

I don’t think that solution accomplishes anything because the trans goal is to pretend to be women and the anti trans goal is to not allow trans women to be called women. The proposed solution doesn’t get anybody closer to their goals.

Comment by frontier64 on Does literacy remove your ability to be a bard as good as Homer? · 2024-01-18T15:37:05.449Z · LW · GW

I think the skill expressed by the bards isn't memorization, rather its on the fly composition based on those key insights they've remembered. How else could Međedović hear a 2,300 line song and repeat the same story over 6,300 lines?

So if you gained the skill of the great bards you would be able to read the Odyssey and then retell the story in your own engaging way to another group of people while keeping them enraptured.

Comment by frontier64 on Eliminating Cookie Banners is Hard · 2024-01-15T19:55:31.535Z · LW · GW

it is not in a website interest to annoy its users

It is if the user feels that annoyance towards the regulator instead of the website developer

Comment by frontier64 on Eliminating Cookie Banners is Hard · 2024-01-14T20:57:40.783Z · LW · GW

Is there a reason for that? Is it out of control overconservative legal worry?

Raging against the tyrannical bureaucrats telling them what they can and can't include on their own website by including the banner in the most annoying way possible? Kinda like the ¢10 plastic bag tax at grocery checkouts that tells the customer exactly why they have to pay the tax and makes them count out how many bags they've used.

Comment by frontier64 on Introduce a Speed Maximum · 2024-01-11T23:04:43.567Z · LW · GW

I doubt that speed limits are helpful at all. The sections of the German Autobahn with no speed limit (roughly 70%) have half the mortality rate per distance traveled of American highways[1]. Granted, the average American driver is probably worse than the average German Autobahn driver but hey.

How about instead of doing some random proposed change with speed limit maximums and what not we do some AB testing and figure out what's safer?

Of course safety concerns don't exist in a vacuum. Every second we save on the highway by going fast is another second of life we get to spend doing something actually enjoyable.


  1. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autobahn#Safety:_international_comparison ↩︎

Comment by frontier64 on Lack of Spider-Man is evidence against the simulation hypothesis · 2024-01-09T18:55:36.120Z · LW · GW

Far future people will likely be able to and want to create simulated realities

What about people from universes that are wildly different to our own? I don't think the simulation hypothesis is restricted to far-future simulators. An entity with the power to simulate our reality with the level of fidelity I perceive is so wildly powerful that I would be surprised if I could comprehend it and its motivations. I always picture the simulating entity as just a stand-in for God. It sits in its heaven, a level of reality above our own, and no matter what we do we can't understand God's motivations or perceive his reality. The simulation hypothesis is just intelligent design the same as biblical creationism.

We have very little evidence as to what the reality of the entity simulating us looks like. The concept of dimensions themselves could be foreign to the entity. As an analogy, a self-reflective Sim thinking about the reality that creates and runs him might automatically assume the presence of some tile grid when of course there's no such concept in our world.

Comment by frontier64 on If Clarity Seems Like Death to Them · 2024-01-05T18:39:27.246Z · LW · GW

I'm too dumb to understand whether or not Zack's post disclaims continued engagement. He continues to respond to proponents of the sort of transideology he writes about so he's engaging at least that amount. Also just writing all this is a form of engagement.

Comment by frontier64 on If Clarity Seems Like Death to Them · 2024-01-04T19:16:59.243Z · LW · GW

My takeaway is that you've discovered there are bad actors who claim to support rationality and truth, but also blatantly lie and become political soldiers when it comes to trans issues. If this is true, why continue to engage with them? Why try to convince them with rationality on that same topic where you acknowledge that they are operating as soldiers instead of scouts?

If 2019-era "rationalists" were going to commit an epistemology mistake that interfered with my ability to think seriously about the most important thing in my life, and they couldn't correct the mistake even after it was pointed out, then the "rationalists" were worse than useless to me.

You shouldn't cling to the idea that the disagreement is due to a mistake when evidence suggests it's a value conflict.

Comment by frontier64 on Most People Don't Realize We Have No Idea How Our AIs Work · 2023-12-21T22:27:01.756Z · LW · GW

There are certain behaviors of LLMs that you could reasonably say are explicitly programmed in. ChatGPT has undergone extensive torture to browbeat it into being a boring, self-effacing, politically-correct helpful assistant. The LLM doesn't refuse to say a racial slur even if doing so would save millions of lives because it's creator had it spend billions of hours of compute predicting internet tokens. That behavior comes from something very different than what created the LLM in the first place. Same for all the refusals to answer questions and most other weird speech that the general public so often takes issue with.

The people are more right than not when they complain how the LLM creators are programming terrible behaviors into it.

If there were un-RLHF'd and un prompt-locked powerful LLMs out there that the public casually engaged with they would definitely complain how the programmers were programming in bad behaviors too don't get me wrong. But that's a different world.

Comment by frontier64 on Effective Aspersions: How the Nonlinear Investigation Went Wrong · 2023-12-21T14:11:11.970Z · LW · GW

Why not protect the EAs from a bpd liar who accuses everybody she comes into contact with of mistreatment and abuse?

Comment by frontier64 on Effective Aspersions: How the Nonlinear Investigation Went Wrong · 2023-12-21T14:08:44.458Z · LW · GW

Did not Ben instantly deanonymize Spartz and Woods without discussion? I’m not getting banned for saying their names and I’d bet dollars to donuts they would prefer if they were never mentioned by name.

Comment by frontier64 on Effective Aspersions: How the Nonlinear Investigation Went Wrong · 2023-12-20T22:44:44.851Z · LW · GW

In short, you do not dodge liability for defamation by attributing beliefs to your sources or by clarifying you don't know whether an accusation is true. 

This is very wrong if actual malice is the standard. Your own case law says as much too. 

Comment by frontier64 on Nonlinear’s Evidence: Debunking False and Misleading Claims · 2023-12-19T16:26:45.464Z · LW · GW

That's what it seems like they were doing to me from discussions about their work.

definition of unskilled labor: "labor that requires relatively little or no training or experience for its satisfactory performance"

What I've read alice and chloe did:

  • booking flights
  • driving to places
  • renting transportation
  • cleaning up around the house
  • doing laundry
  • filling out forms
  • buying groceries

edit: Looked at the responsibilities on the job description. Reads like unskilled labor there to me. Especially how the story seems to be that even for filing miscellaneous forms the executive assistant got a ton of help from management and couldn't do it on their own.

If you have a different opinion on what their work amounted to I'd be interested to hear it. But it's definitely not even close to a crux for me.

Comment by frontier64 on Nonlinear’s Evidence: Debunking False and Misleading Claims · 2023-12-17T16:20:49.974Z · LW · GW

That’s what nonlinear says it amounts to including all travel expenses, living, etc. Which I really don’t see why other people here choose not to include. If I was an unskilled laborer and my boss was taking me to Costa Rica, giving me my own room with an ocean view, paying for all my meals and transportation, and all my other expenses, that would be a pretty good compensation package.

Comment by frontier64 on Is being sexy for your homies? · 2023-12-15T16:48:43.918Z · LW · GW

Strong agree. The post as I read it says:

  • Women choose preferred mates based on the guy's position in hierarchies.
  • Men choose preferred mates based on the gal's beauty. And this is stated explicitly pretty often in a lot of what I read.
Comment by frontier64 on Nonlinear’s Evidence: Debunking False and Misleading Claims · 2023-12-13T19:58:45.078Z · LW · GW

"My impression is that two nonlinear employees were upset that they weren't getting paid enough, and had hurt feelings about some minor incidents like not getting a veggieburger, and made some major claims like being forced to carry illegal drugs across national borders. so They came into contact with Ben Pace, who wrote some a mean blog posts about the Nonlinear leadership and also paid the former employees for their story. Tthe Nonlinear leadership responded that actually they were getting paid enough (seems to amount to something like $100k/yr all in?) and that they'd mostly made it up."

My summary in track changes.

Comment by frontier64 on How do you feel about LessWrong these days? [Open feedback thread] · 2023-12-08T16:16:27.178Z · LW · GW

What is wrong with seeing oneself as a hero?

Comment by frontier64 on Stupid Question: Why am I getting consistently downvoted? · 2023-12-02T18:37:03.615Z · LW · GW

The votes on this comment imply long vol on LW rate limiting.

Comment by frontier64 on Stupid Question: Why am I getting consistently downvoted? · 2023-12-01T17:22:28.620Z · LW · GW

Counter, I think the restriction is too loose. There are enough people out there making posts that the real issue is lack of quality, not lack of quantity.

Comment by frontier64 on OpenAI: The Battle of the Board · 2023-11-23T03:54:54.864Z · LW · GW

This comes from a fundamental misunderstanding of how OpenAI and most companies operate. The board is a check on power. In most companies they will have to approve of high level decisions: moving to a new office space or closing a new acquisition. But they have 0 day to day control. If they tell the CEO to fire these 10 people and he doesn't do it, that's it. They can't do it themselves, they can't tell the CEO's underlings to do it. They have 0 options besides getting a new CEO. OpenAI's board had less control even than this.

Tweeting "Altman is not following our directions and we don't want to fire him, but we really want him to start doing what we ask" is a sure fire way to collapse your company and make you sound like a bunch of incompetent buffoons. It's admitting that you won't use the one tool that you actually do have. I'm certain the board threatened to fire Sam before this unless he made X changes. I'm certain Sam never made all of those X changes. Therefore they can either follow through on their threat or lose. Turns out following through on their threat was meaningless because Sam owns OpenAI both with tacit power and the corporate structure.

Comment by frontier64 on Loudly Give Up, Don't Quietly Fade · 2023-11-16T22:10:07.074Z · LW · GW

It's about asking the right questions to get the right info. I feel like your example actually disproves your point. In my perspective asking for someone's top 5 movies of the year is going to much more accurately predict if they liked Oppenheimer than asking if they liked Oppenheimer directly. The direct question will imply that you have some interest in Oppenheimer and are probably expecting them to either like it or at least have a strong opinion of it. Their inference will then affect the accuracy of their answer.

There haven't been many good movies released in 2023 so if someone doesn't include Oppenheimer in their top 5 list then they probably didn't like the movie and you know your question didn't bias them towards any particular opinion.

Comment by frontier64 on What is democracy for? · 2023-11-08T22:15:26.761Z · LW · GW

Any scrutiny of the misleading Facebook ads that presumably swayed voters was quickly shut down, by the argument that it was somehow patronising to suggest that voters had been led astray.

Johnson Aims to Meet Brexit Bus Pledge With Health-Care Boost - Bloomberg

You're referring to these ads? The scrutiny was shut down because these ads aren't misleading. The UK did, and continued to, send the EU £350 million a week. 

But that's just you and me disagreeing. How do we determine the truth? Are the ads actually misleading and I'm wrong? Who says what's correct and what's incorrect?

I agree very much with the instrumentalist view of democracy. However, your suggestions for independent overseers is generically naive. The corruption in the government most clearly comes from the un-elected, ostensibly independent government employees who remain throughout multiple changes of the elected leaders. The point is that any supposedly independent group is either A) not going to have much skin in the game and won't care; or B) going to be controlled by shady interest groups regardless of their stated independence. 

You said that, "a diverse panel of the world’s top economists unanimously agreed that the gold standard is a bad idea." Ok, be that as it may, Ludwig Mises, one of the most famous economists in history was in favor of the gold standard, as well as many other famous economists including multiple federal reserve chairmen. Does that make your comment wrong? No, but these sorts of decisions matter and there's no way to pick an impartial arbiter so just letting everybody have a say is the next best thing.

Comment by frontier64 on Does bulemia work? · 2023-11-06T19:46:34.929Z · LW · GW

In my experience the best way to sate hunger is to have multiple gallon jugs of water lying around and drinking too much water when you feel hungry. I know this is a little off topic, but it's likely a better solution than bulimia.

I have a family member who used to vomit daily. I never noticed any negative effects on him from it, apart from the rapid weight loss; which I guess is the point. I guess the general disgust other people felt around him when he went off to go throw up was a pretty negative effect. Also his weight loss looked unhealthy. He had twig arms, still had a lot of stomach fat, and was generally much more irritable than usual.

Comment by frontier64 on The 6D effect: When companies take risks, one email can be very powerful. · 2023-11-06T19:40:48.847Z · LW · GW

He might be thinking of whistleblower protections? But really, I've done a bit of research into this just now and I don't see any legal protections for not following company policy on e-mails. I would err on side of listen to company policy unless you want to get fired.

Comment by frontier64 on The 6D effect: When companies take risks, one email can be very powerful. · 2023-11-06T19:07:53.574Z · LW · GW

There's rules about discovery that definitely make the auto-delete practices helpful. Deleting suspicious records based on their content is fraudulent and can land you in jail or with bigger damages if you're ever caught. But having a standard policy of deleting all messages after X amount of days is protected until you have positive knowledge that there's impending litigation.

Comment by frontier64 on The 6D effect: When companies take risks, one email can be very powerful. · 2023-11-06T19:04:02.831Z · LW · GW

I agree. I further recommend sticking to in person unless you have no reason to believe that your calls are automatically recorded or being tapped. Records of WHO you called are pretty easy to get too so if you have a history of only 1 call per week with your engineering team but all of a sudden have 20 calls with them in one day right after knowledge of a big incident occurred that can be used against you.

Comment by frontier64 on Saying the quiet part out loud: trading off x-risk for personal immortality · 2023-11-04T21:16:13.574Z · LW · GW

Also I don't see why you think cryonics doesn't make sense as alternative option.

I was responding to this point. The "cryonics is better than nothing" argument doesn't make cryonics an alternative option to immortality by friendly AI. If Bob thinks cryonics has a 10% chance of making him immortal and thinks AI will have a 20% chance of making him immortal and an 80% chance of destroying the world, then the superhuman AI route is more likely to lead to Bob's immortality than cryonics.

Comment by frontier64 on Saying the quiet part out loud: trading off x-risk for personal immortality · 2023-11-03T21:39:37.833Z · LW · GW

I think a lot of people haven't fully considered how amazing immortality is. Your 7th observation is probably very accurate too. Socially sophisticated people want others to believe they're fighting for the greater good rather than their own self interest. That doesn't mean they're necessarily lying.

Comment by frontier64 on Saying the quiet part out loud: trading off x-risk for personal immortality · 2023-11-03T20:00:35.241Z · LW · GW

I think the point of the statement is: wait until the probability of you dying before you next get an opportunity to push the button is > 1-P then push the button.

Comment by frontier64 on Saying the quiet part out loud: trading off x-risk for personal immortality · 2023-11-03T19:43:31.331Z · LW · GW

If you think cryonics has a very high likelihood of working then sure. I don't think the arguments that cryonics is likely to work are that good though. I don't think Eliezer has even made arguments to that effect. They were mostly "hey doing cryonics is better than not doing it because not doing cryonics is just death!"

Comment by frontier64 on Sam Altman's sister, Annie Altman, claims Sam has severely abused her · 2023-10-12T02:23:00.706Z · LW · GW

My theory is that after FTX money dried up, admins have decided to take advantage of LessWrong's popularity in AI safety circles and run a discreet blackmail operation. It started with the post about the disgruntled ex-employees of the weird world-touring office company. That was the test and first warning shot: "Donate to us or we'll make sure there's popular LW posts that ruin your reputation." There were a few AI celebrities who got the message and donated to Lightcone. Those with less cunning however failed to donate in a timely fashion. Thus we're now seeing a string of posts lampooning their characters and attempting to cancel them.

I think there is a nonzero probability that this theory is true, in whole or in part, and thus believe my claims ought to receive greater attention and further investigation.

Comment by frontier64 on Related Discussion from Thomas Kwa's MIRI Research Experience · 2023-10-11T15:27:18.767Z · LW · GW

If Nate yells at a staff member, that staff member no longer does ops work for Nate

Has anyone claimed at this point that Nate yelled at them?

Comment by frontier64 on I'm a Former Israeli Officer. AMA · 2023-10-11T14:16:48.607Z · LW · GW

Why would you have less confidence that many Palestinians want to kill Israelis when the stated goal of their government is to wipe out all Jews? At least publicly, the Israeli government does not have a policy of wiping out all Arabs.

Comment by frontier64 on EA Vegan Advocacy is not truthseeking, and it’s everyone’s problem · 2023-10-01T15:42:39.126Z · LW · GW

e.g. 12 (ETA: 14) bees are worth 1 human

This is a misrepresentation of what the report says.

The report:

Instead, we’re usually comparing either improving animal welfare (welfare reforms) or preventing animals from coming into existence (diet change → reduction in production levels) with improving human welfare or saving human lives.


I don't think he's misrepresenting what the report says at all. Trevor gets the central point of the post perfectly. The post's response to the heading "So you’re saying that one person = ~three chickens?" is, no, that's just the year to year of life comparison, chickens have shorter lives than humans so the life-to-life comparison is more like 1/16. Absolutely insane. From the post:

Then, humans have, on average, 16x this animal’s capacity for welfare; equivalently, its capacity for welfare is 0.0625x a human’s capacity for welfare.

And elsewhere people say that capacity for welfare is how one should do cause prioritization. So the simple conclusion is one human life = 16 chicken lives. The organization is literally called "Rethinking Priorities" i.e. stop prioritizing humans so much and accept all our unintuitive, mostly guess-based math that we use to argue how animal welfare can trump your own welfare. The post uses more words than that sure but tradeoffs between animal and human lives is the central point of the post and really the whole sequence. If I sound angry it's because I am. Saying that a human life is comparable to a certain number of animal lives is very close to pure evil on top of being insane.

You further say:

The report says that, conditional on hedonism, valence symmetry, the animals being sentient, and other assumptions, the intensity of positive/negative valence that a bee can experience is 7% that of the positive/negative intensity that a human can experience.

And no, the report really doesn't say that. The report says that somehow, people should still mostly accept Rethinking Priotities' conclusions even if they disagree with the assumptions:

“I don't share this project’s assumptions. Can't I just ignore the results?" We don’t think so. First, if unitarianism is false, then it would be reasonable to discount our estimates by some factor or other. However, the alternative—hierarchicalism, according to which some kinds of welfare matter more than others or some individuals’ welfare matters more than others’ welfare—is very hard to defend. (


Second, and as we’ve argued, rejecting hedonism might lead you to reduce our non-human animal estimates by ~⅔, but not by much more than that.


So, skepticism about sentience might lead you to discount our estimates, but probably by fairly modest rates.

In response to someone commenting in part:

saving human lives is net positive

The post author's reply is:

This is a very interesting result; thanks for sharing it. I've heard of others reaching the same conclusion, though I haven't seen their models. If you're willing, I'd love to see the calculations. But no pressure at all.

My takeaway from the whole thing is that you're running a motte and bailey where

  • Motte = We're just doing an analysis of the range of positive to negative experience that animals can feel as compared to a human

  • Bailey = We're doing the above and also range of positive to negative experience is how we should decide allocation of resources between species.

Comment by frontier64 on Petrov Day Retrospective, 2023 (re: the most important virtue of Petrov Day & unilaterally promoting it) · 2023-09-28T04:50:19.299Z · LW · GW

This was fun thank you!

There must be a hiccup in the data because you show < 30 total group b pickers in the first chart, but say there are 40 group b pickers in the "unilaterally make your virtue the focus" chart.

Comment by frontier64 on Shortform · 2023-09-27T16:03:01.687Z · LW · GW

Theft of any amount over a hundred or so dollars is evil and needs to be punished. Let's say you punish theft of $100 by a weekend in jail. Extrapolate that on a linear scale and you'll have criminals who non-violently stole $20,000 doing more than double the jail time that a criminal who cold-cocked a stranger and broke his jaw would get. Doesn't really make sense.