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You said: "Well, an embryo develops a mind because it's got the genetic code for it - which, yes, comes from the larger external system that evolved that code. Is that what you meant?"
Our conflict is due two different interpretations of genetic code. You think that biological systems (aka life) evolved a genetic code, so, you think that had no genetic code before life. It is not what is suggesting the results from my different method of investigation. There is no " code" in the sense that are composed by symbols. Each horizontal base-pair of nucleotides is a derivation with some little difference of an ancestor system, the original first galaxies. (you need see the model of this galaxy and how it fits as nucleotide in my website). So, DNA is merely a pile of diversified copies of a unique ancestor astronomical system, which produces diversification and functional biological systems. But, galaxies got their system's configuration from atoms system, and they got from particles as systems, so, the prior causes of this " genetic makeup" seems to be beyond the Big Bang. The informations for building the mind of an embryo came from a system outside his womb; maybe informations for building minds in the whole universe came from a natural system outside the universe. Why not? configuration from atoms system, and they got from particles as systems (Sorry, I need stop now but I will come back. Sheers...)
I can't grasp yours example. Typewriters has the informations. Letters are graphic symbols of sounds that are signals of real things. My world vision started with comparative anatomy between all natural systems and the universal patterns founded here were projected for calculations about universes and first causes. As final result we got the same theory of Hideki Yukawa calculating the nuclear gluon, how protons and neutrons interacts. As result, this universe started with all informations for everything here, like any new origins of any human being started with prior information for creating the embryo and its womb (his entire universe). But these informations for universes are natural. Two groups of vortexes one spin right, other spin left. The interactions between then creates the intermediary movements. Each vortexes has at least seven properties which were the physical brutes forces(tendency to inertia, tendency to movement; tendency to grow, tendency to shorter; etc.). The different intensities of these forces and their interactions produces an infinity of individual types or vortex. Each vortex is one information, like genes. Th ere are genes that begins working later, so, there are universal informations in the air not applied yet. Like those building consciousness here. But, my results from these method is still theoretical. It makes sense and one day will be falsifiable
Thanks, MugaSofer, for yours constructive reply. No, I am not a native English and my brain was hard-wired at the salvage jungle here, so, I think is a good opportunity for me debating our different experiences and world views. I hope that it must be curious for you too.
You said: " Well, our personalities, memories and so on can be affected by interfering with the brain, and it certainly looks like it's doing some sort of information processing (as far as we can tell), so ... seems unlikely, to be honest."
Yes, these things (personality, memories, etc.) composes our " state of being" and they are merely product of brains/nature. But, we have a real phenomena where we watch the emergence of consciousnesses without being product of brains: the embryo. There is no natural architecture able to be conscious of its existence, neither are the brains alone. So, where comes from the conscious state of embryos? From a superior hierarchic system that exists beyond his universe (the womb), and this system is called " human species" . So, it is not zero the probability that human mind is product of a hidden superior natural system whose bits-information are invading our immediate world and being aggregated to our synapses, besides the possibility that it was encrypted into our genes (if my models about Matrix/DNA are right).
You said: "Are you saying evolution will make us irrational? Or that rationality is incompatible with lovecraftian puppetry? Or something completely different?"
No, evolution will make us more suitable to real natural world. But, due the alternation between chaos and order, and due our origins coming from chaos, the flow of order (which is the basis for rationality) is the baby and weak force just now. Chaos is dying, order is growing, but now, chaos still is the strongest, so. irrationality and randomness are the winners, by while.
You said: " You ... realize human's didn't evolve in the Amazon, right?"
I don't understand your question. Being still virgin and untouchable, the elements of Amazon hidden niches are witness of life's origins. And we see chaos here. So, our origins came from terrestrial chaotic state of Nature, which came from ordered state of Cosmos... Cyclic alternations.
You said: " I'm not sure I'd characterize the natural world as "chaotic" as such. Complex, sometimes, sure, but it follows some pretty simple rules, and when we deduce these rules we can manipulate them."
Natural world is the Universe, not this terrestrial biosphere alone. This biosphere is a kind of disturbance, a noise, in relation to the ordered state of Cosmos. Biosphere is product of an entropic process, like the radiation of sun. So, the disturbance is corrected by the ordered Cosmos, from which is coming the emergence of those rules you are talking about. The curious thing is that humans are the carriers of those rules, we are bringing order to our salvage environment.
You said: " The universe is definitely ordered, but don't forget evolution can produce some pretty "designed" looking structures."
The Universe, as a conglomerate of galaxies, seems to be mass with no shape, not a system. We don't know if there is a nucleus, relations among parts, etc. We can't know if it is ordered or chaotic. Evolution is the result of a flow of energy moving inside this Universe. Like any fetus is under evolution due a genetic flow producing more designed looking structures. The source of this "evolution" is a natural system (human species) living beyond the fetus' universe (the womb). This is the unique real natural parameter we have for theories about the universe.
You said: You seem to be treating "order" and "chaos" more like elemental forces or something, and generally sound like you've got problems with magical thinking.
It is not magical thinking, it is the normal natural chain of causes and effects. Every system that reaches an ordered state is attacked by entropy, which produces chaos, from which lift up order again, but each cycle is more complex than the ancestors cycles. At chaotic states, like our biosphere, generations of empty minds are more likely to be winners, while generations of reasonable minds must be losers at short time and the final winner at long time. But, maybe the jungle is teaching me everything wrong. What do you think?
Thanks, Estarilo. I really need to fix my world vision and thoughts.
You said: " More ordered states could prove to be unsustainable whether or not there's some sort of overarching system such as you describe at play."
I think yes, more ordered state must be unsustainable, eternally. But, chaos also must be unsustainable. If so, there are these cycles, when chaos produces order and order produces chaos. The final results is evolution, because each cycle is a little bit more complex. There is hierarchy of systems. Overarching systems can be two types: 1) in relation to complexity and, 2) in relation to size, force. A lion is more strong than a human, but human is more complex. We have two systems modelling evolution at Earth. 1) the astronomical system (biggest size and less evolved), which is our ancestor, but we are inside it, he created us. This system is a perfect machine, but not intelligent, not rational like us. Whatever, he is the agent behind natural selection, because he is the whole environment. 2) The second system is untenable, but he must exists, because here there is mind, consciousnesses and our ancestral astronomic has no mind. I don't accept that this Universe creates things that he has no information for, so, the system that made the emergence of mind here must be superior to the Universe. And if he is ex-machine, makes no sense to talk about ordered or chaotic states. He must be more sustainable than the Universe. I am not talking about supernatural gods, I am suggesting a natural superior system from which this thing called consciousness is coming from..
You said: " there's no specifically supporting evidence"
It is probable because we have a real known parameter. An embryo gets " mind" because it comes from a superior hierarchic system that exists beyond his "Universe" (the womb). The superior system is the human species, his parents. So, it is possible that a natural super-system existing beyond our universe have transmitted before the Big Bang the informations for the mind appears here at the right time.
You said: " Maybe ordered systems lose because magical unicorns..."
In the alternation between cycles, there are the alternations between dominant and recessive. If chaos is dominant here and now, the ordered state is weak and a loser, till the chaos being extinct. And rationality is more relative to order than chaos. But rationality is not the wisdom. Must have a third superior state. What do you think ?
There is an issue never remembered here, about the question that we believe the world is X but it is Y: Are you sure that rationality is pure product of brains... Are you sure that mind is pure product of brains... What if mind is product of a hidden superior natural system whose bits-information are invading our immediate world and being aggregated to our synapses... If so, rationality as pure product of mind will make the most evolved rationalist a loser, by while... Or don t... (sorry, I have no punctuation mark in this keyboard)
Here, in Amazon jungle, lays our real origins. And you see here that this biosphere is product of chaos. We are product of chaos, not order. It seems to me that we are the flow of order lifting up from chaos. So, for long term winning, those that best represents this flow will have bad times because the forces of chaos are the strongest. Then, the winners now, are still representants of chaos, less evolved...
But it seems to me that above the chaotic biosphere I see Cosmos at ordered state. So, I suspect that this Cosmos is the " natural" super-system sending bits-information and modelling this terrestrial chaos into a future state of order. It is acting over the last evolved system here, and I think it is the mind, not the brain. So, if one is being driven for to be rationalist (in relation to Cosmos and ordered state), he,she will be a loser in relation to this biosphere in chaotic state. The intelligent best thing to do should to find a middle alternative, fighting this world at the same time that do it with less sacrifice. What do you think...
What means "allowing "the energy of the universe" to lead her." ? We can make an analogy. Imagine a fetus inside the womb. The mother's womb is the energy of the universe leading the fetus. Normally, fetus have no rationality and free will, they can't do nothing. But adult humans are different, they can drive their destiny, taking decisions. Since that fetus do nothing he will be successful in relation to its mother's state but, if its mother is poor, ugly, living at non-hospitable location, he will be not successful in relation to its destiny. Oprah must had to be a collaborator when molested and learned survivor bias and maybe got something as reward by the molesters. To her, the molesters were the energy of the Universe and one must be submitted to it, dancing this music, for to be rewarded. Then, " give to people what they want".
But...did Oprah the right thing to do? Yes if we are merely animals, and not if we have post-death existence, be it as a soul or genetically imprinted into our offspring. Because the Earth's biosphere is the womb of human beings and it is product of chaos due the fall of our ancestors non-biological astronomical systems (see Matrix/DNA models for understanding it). The biosphere's laws are not the laws of the Universe at ordered state. I think that if I am a fetus with intelligence, knowing that my mother's womb is making me poor, ugly, for to be a slave, I will fight against these " universal energies" and i will be born different than my parents, their immediate world, on which I will be not successful. But I did it right in relation to long term destiny...and if there is long term destiny, Oprah is doing everything wrong...
I am here proposing a new definition of rationality and its new rational behavior. Living at Amazon jungle by seven years, at untouched and virgin territory, Nature has showed to me that our current understand of rationality is wrong. Reason is product of human brain which is product of this biosphere which is product of this solar system, this Milk Way and this Universe. But, the current academic world view has separated this normal chain of evolution into blocks with no evolutionary links between them. The final results is that the gaps between these blocks are being fulfilled with mystic and imaginations, like emergency of new systems as cell system by chance alone. The current dominance of Physics for interpreting the whole Universe, its meanings, etc, is wrong: since the Universe produced our human body composed by skeleton, soft meat and consciousness, it is reasonable to infer that the Universe has informations for doing it, maybe the Universe has equal composition. Since Physics is limited to the study of Universe's skeleton and its mechanics properties, Physics and Math can not reach a theory of everything. It will be necessary applying biology, neurology, etc. for getting a better universal knowledge. That's what I am trying to do with my Theory called " The Universal Matrix/DNA of Natural Systems and Life's Cycles" which reveals a kind of rationality that will be not comprehensive here initially. I don't know who is the most right one, so, I think we must debate this issue. It is about the healthy of our Reason.