Memory, nutrition, motivation, and genes

post by PhilGoetz · 2013-02-26T05:25:02.917Z · LW · GW · Legacy · 12 comments

There are two confusing but potentially important papers in the Jan. 25 2013 Science on long-term memory (LTM) formation in fruit flies:

Pierre-Yves Placais & Thomas Preat. To favor survival under food shortage, the brain disables costly memory. 339:440-441.

Yukinori Hirano et al. Fasting launches CRTC to facilitate long-term memory formation in Drosophila. 339:443-446.

 

These papers categorize long-term memory formation along three axes.

The relationship between these is unclear, particularly as each of these three axes is claimed at various times to determine whether memory can be learned in a single training cycle (appetitive, fLTM, and/or ARM) or not (aversive, spLTM, and/or LTM).  But these things appear to be likely, or at least to be reasonable hypotheses, if these pathways are conserved in humans:

I'd really appreciate it if somebody would do a literature review and a comparison of the pathways involved to those in humans, and summarize their findings.

12 comments

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comment by Elithrion · 2013-02-26T19:23:08.209Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

So, the picture I'm getting from this is that if I start a cult I should have the followers fast for a suitably long time, and then present them with some profound revelation along with a meal. And if they don't want to fast, the second-best thing is to have them repeatedly come to the same place and be told profound revelations that will positively influence their lives.

Replies from: David_Gerard
comment by David_Gerard · 2013-02-26T23:24:39.404Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

You have successfully predicted the past, yes. Many do this.

Replies from: Elithrion
comment by Elithrion · 2013-02-27T00:14:06.575Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Considering that many also predict the past unsuccessfully, I shall take this as a solid, though unexceptional, endorsement.

Replies from: David_Gerard
comment by David_Gerard · 2013-02-27T00:19:19.038Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

That's what I meant it as :-) Sleep deprivation and tricks with food are commonplace. (To the point where the Hare Krishnas being slightly famous for really good food is a bit of a surprise. They're still into the sleep deprivation, though.)

Replies from: PhilGoetz
comment by PhilGoetz · 2013-02-27T17:30:38.190Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Training by the U.S. Army and by Tom Brown Jr. both involve a lot of sleep deprivation. The Army doesn't use it in any systematic way that I can tell; they just think it's good training because they expect sleep deprivation during combat. I think TBJ does it to cause hallucination and general weak-willedness.

comment by Vaniver · 2013-02-26T22:12:36.803Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

How quickly you learn something depends on whether your brain thinks that this knowledge is to avoid something bad (slow learning) or to attain something good (fast learning).

Aversive learning is slower than appetitive learning? That's possible, but not what I would expect from my reading on anxiety and learned aversions, which can often be traced back to a single traumatic incident. Maybe this is just selection bias (EDIT: It was.), or the relative amount of badness is incomparable, but that seems like those results ought to get reconciled somehow.

Replies from: John_Maxwell_IV
comment by John_Maxwell (John_Maxwell_IV) · 2013-02-27T08:17:41.513Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The animal training book Don't Shoot the Dog states that reinforcement-oriented clicker training is substantially faster and more persistent than aversion-based alternatives. Even for cases where you're training an animal not to do something, the author recommends finding a way to make use of reinforcement-based training somehow... e.g. train a behavior incompatible with the one you want to discourage. "[Punishment is] everybody's favorite [method for getting rid of undesired behaviors], in spite of the fact that it almost never really works."

Replies from: Vaniver
comment by Vaniver · 2013-02-27T15:45:44.993Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The animal training book Don't Shoot the Dog states that reinforcement-oriented clicker training is substantially faster and more persistent than aversion-based alternatives.

Oh, of course. Positive reinforcement in general is stronger, which I would have noticed if I hadn't been primed by reading about anxiety recently, which suggests I should institute some sort of debiasing exercise when I recognize the risk of selection bias rather than just announcing it.

comment by John_Maxwell (John_Maxwell_IV) · 2013-02-27T08:13:02.830Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

How quickly you learn something depends on how much you've eaten recently. You learn most quickly immediately after ending a long fast. Your brain thinks you just learned something that saved it from starvation. (But note that a 1-day fast for a fruit fly could be compared to a human fasting for months.)

Wouldn't you want to learn the thing right before breaking your fast?

Replies from: PhilGoetz
comment by PhilGoetz · 2013-02-27T17:27:14.703Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The experimental time resolution isn't that high. They're comparing things learned "when" breaking the fast vs. things learned 4 or 6 hours earlier or later.

comment by Dr_Manhattan · 2013-02-26T13:46:07.012Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It's interesting that the idea of learning influenced by emotional state goes way back. There is Talmudic reinterpretation of "But my wisdom remained with me" to "wisdom that I learned in anger stood with me". I'm not sure if there is epistemic truth to this, but it's an interesting thought, and I wouldn't be surprised if it's not totally wrong; the Talmudists studied pretty damn hard.

Replies from: Vaniver
comment by Vaniver · 2013-02-26T22:13:15.083Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This is a well-established effect.