[SEQ RERUN] To Spread Science, Keep It Secret
post by MinibearRex · 2012-03-17T05:01:15.191Z · LW · GW · Legacy · 14 commentsToday's post, To Spread Science, Keep It Secret was originally published on 28 March 2008. A summary (taken from the LW wiki):
People don't study science, in part, because they perceive it to be public knowledge. In fact, it's not; you have to study a lot before you actually understand it. But because science is thought to be freely available, people ignore it in favor of cults that conceal their secrets, even if those secrets are wrong. In fact, it might be better if scientific knowledge was hidden from anyone who didn't undergo the initiation ritual, and study as an acolyte, and wear robes, and chant, and...
Discuss the post here (rather than in the comments to the original post).
This post is part of the Rerunning the Sequences series, where we'll be going through Eliezer Yudkowsky's old posts in order so that people who are interested can (re-)read and discuss them. The previous post was Scarcity, and you can use the sequence_reruns tag or rss feed to follow the rest of the series.
Sequence reruns are a community-driven effort. You can participate by re-reading the sequence post, discussing it here, posting the next day's sequence reruns post, or summarizing forthcoming articles on the wiki. Go here for more details, or to have meta discussions about the Rerunning the Sequences series.
14 comments
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comment by smk · 2012-03-17T05:52:03.196Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Not one of my favorites. I'm tempted to stick this one in a mental category called "Eliezer's BDSM Posts"--you know, the ones where he says he likes to imagine living in a world where various things are deliberately made difficult/painful/scary and everyone goes around wearing black leather vests (ok, I made up the part about the vests). Also a lot of his fun theory posts would go in this category.
Replies from: Incorrect, wedrifid, Dmytry↑ comment by wedrifid · 2012-03-17T06:06:45.224Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I'd prefer the BDSM stuff than this. His conspiracy ideals are dubious.
"Keep it secret" just will not work this way.
Replies from: Jello_Raptor↑ comment by Jello_Raptor · 2012-03-17T19:50:08.683Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Aye, not that the general idea "hijack the various stupidities of the human mind to spread raltionality/science" is itself bad, but i think this particular implementation is dubious.
Mostly because science is something anyone can do without the support of a central authority. Having a central authority and secrecy just invites people to betray it for the quick cash that one gets from a tell all memoir. Maybe we could hijack scarcity effects by actively changing the culture. Change the message to something like "Science is really hard, and you Mr.RandomPerson can't do it. The only people who can do anything of real scientific import are geniuses". (Yes yes this idea is probably crap) Somehow make science the realm of respectable elites, while turning rationality into something more akin to common sense. (Please don't make a joke about common sense being uncommon, we've all heard it)
Replies from: wedrifid↑ comment by wedrifid · 2012-03-18T01:23:56.175Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Aye, not that the general idea "hijack the various stupidities of the human mind to spread raltionality/science" is itself bad, but i think this particular implementation is dubious.
Exactly. It is an inept attempt to harness a bias - it just wouldn't work in this instance.
Replies from: hairyfigment↑ comment by hairyfigment · 2012-03-18T04:02:20.207Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Seems like MoR is working just fine, and that comes closer to the topic. He's explicitly not arguing here that we should keep science secret.
Maybe he does believe Conspiracy World should exist eventually, but this post by itself seems like extremely weak evidence. Vladimir earlier made an important distinction between the secrecy Eliezer might really practice and that of literal Eighth Level Physicists.
Replies from: wedrifid↑ comment by wedrifid · 2012-03-18T04:10:54.915Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Seems like MoR is working just fine
That seems to be an overt attempt at publicity... that's the opposite of secrecy.
Replies from: hairyfigment↑ comment by hairyfigment · 2012-03-19T01:54:24.042Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Um, how recently did you read the linked post?
And no, I'm not seriously proposing that we try to reverse the last five hundred years of openness and classify all the science secret. At least, not at the moment.
...I'm telling you about this vision of an alternate Earth, so that you give science equal treatment with cults. So that you don't undervalue scientific truth when you learn it, just because it doesn't seem to be protected appropriately to its value. Imagine the robes and masks. Visualize yourself creeping into the vaults and stealing the Lost Knowledge of Newton.
(emphasis in original)
Replies from: wedrifid↑ comment by wedrifid · 2012-03-19T02:10:24.387Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Um, how recently did you read the linked post?
Recently enough that your earlier MoR reference seems equally as flawed now.
Replies from: hairyfigment↑ comment by hairyfigment · 2012-03-19T02:57:47.509Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
...OK, what does the last sentence of the post actually mean? (Shouldn't "I am great" be the default interpretation? ^_^)
↑ comment by Dmytry · 2012-03-17T09:03:52.102Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Well yea, but i think he has a good point. The popularizations really got out of hand lately, dumbing things down to the point where stupid person would want to do science (and a smart won't as much as before; we try to pursue things that we have special talents at; make it look like everyone can do it, and you just decrease the incentive for those few who actually can)
comment by David_Gerard · 2012-03-17T11:05:02.792Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
This idea is a hypothesis that is somewhat plausible on the face of it. Has there been any actual effort to establish just how solid the idea in fact is? The SI seems to have taken it onboard wholesale, apparently just because EY said it - how much thought was put into that first?
Replies from: Vladimir_Nesov↑ comment by Vladimir_Nesov · 2012-03-17T11:47:37.629Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
The SI seems to have taken it onboard wholesale
What are you talking about? Don't confuse secrecy to keep ideas secret with secrecy to spread them.
Replies from: David_Gerard↑ comment by David_Gerard · 2012-03-18T12:15:35.189Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
You're right, of course, I confused it with the secrecy to keep ideas secret.