Quantum Physics Revealed As Non-Mysterious

post by Eliezer Yudkowsky (Eliezer_Yudkowsky) · 2008-06-12T05:20:16.000Z · LW · GW · Legacy · 26 comments

This is one of several shortened indices into the Quantum Physics Sequence.

Hello!  You may have been directed to this page because you said something along the lines of "Quantum physics shows that reality doesn't exist apart from our observation of it," or "Science has disproved the idea of an objective reality," or even just "Quantum physics is one of the great mysteries of modern science; no one understands how it works."

There was a time, roughly the first half-century after quantum physics was invented, when this was more or less true.  Certainly, when quantum physics was just being discovered, scientists were very confused indeed!  But time passed, and science moved on.  If you're confused about a phenomenon, that's a fact about your own state of mind, not a fact about the phenomenon itself - there are mysterious questions, but not mysterious answers.  Science eventually figured out what was going on, and why things looked so strange at first.

The series of posts indexed below will show you - not just tell you - what's really going on down there.  To be honest, you're not going to be able to follow this if algebra scares you.  But there won't be any calculus, either.

Some optional preliminaries you might want to read:

And here's the main sequence:

26 comments

Comments sorted by oldest first, as this post is from before comment nesting was available (around 2009-02-27).

comment by Recovering_irrationalist · 2008-06-12T13:01:17.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
But there won't be any calculus, either.

Hmm... I certainly had to look up calculus to follow you and your second derivatives.

comment by Brian_Miller · 2008-06-12T20:04:22.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

With that kind of introduction, I thought you were going to address the Seed article:

http://www.seedmagazine.com/news/2008/06/the_reality_tests_1.php

on realism.

comment by Eliezer Yudkowsky (Eliezer_Yudkowsky) · 2008-06-12T20:17:11.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Brian Miller: That'd be under Bell's Theorem.

RI: But I didn't actually use the second derivative, I just mentioned that it was being taken, so it doesn't count! Right?

Brian Flanagan: I address all these points in various posts.

comment by Brian_Flanagan · 2008-06-12T20:17:11.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The foregoing is an example of what William James called the philosophy of "nothing but." Its practitioners can be counted upon to reduce any phenomenon, however mysterious, to: "O, that is nothing but (blah blah, quack quack)."

Closer to home, Gell-Mann has recently opined that Bohr & Heisenberg "brainwashed" a generation of physicists into thinking QM was complete.

"The overcoming of naive realism has been relatively simple. In his introduction to his volume, An Inquiry Into Meaning and Truth, Russell has characterized this process in a marvellously pregnant fashion:

'We all start from 'naive realism,' i.e., the doctrine that things are what they seem. We think that grass is green, that stones are hard, and that snow is cold. But physics assures us that the greenness of grass, the hardness of stones, and the coldness of snow, are not the greenness, hardness, and coldness that we know in our own experience, but something very different. The observer, when he seems to himself to be observing a stone, is really, if physics is to be believed, observing the effects of the stone upon himself. Thus science seems to be at war with itself: when it means to be most objective, it finds itself plunged into subjectivity against its will.'

Apart from their masterful formulation these lines say something which had never previously occurred to me." (Einstein)

"If you ask a physicist what is his idea of" yellow light, he will tell you that it is transversal electromagnetic waves of wavelength in the neighborhood of 590 millimicrons. If you ask him: But where does yellow come in? he will say: In my picture not at all, but these kinds of vibrations, when they hit the retina of a healthy eye, give the person whose eye it is the sensation of yellow." (Schrodinger)

"It seems clear that the present quantum mechanics is not in its final form [...] I think it very likely, or at any rate quite possible, that in the long run Einstein will turn out to be correct." (Dirac)

"Anyone dissatisfied with these ideas may feel free to assume that there are additional parameters not yet introduced into the theory which determine the individual event." (Born)

comment by Eliezer Yudkowsky (Eliezer_Yudkowsky) · 2008-06-12T20:44:17.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

To be specific about Flanagan's points:

The foregoing is an example of what William James called the philosophy of "nothing but." Its practitioners can be counted upon to reduce any phenomenon, however mysterious, to: "O, that is nothing but (blah blah, quack quack)."

Discussed in several places on Overcoming Bias. In this sequence, mainly Quantum non-realism. But also Fake Reductionism and Angry Atoms.

Closer to home, Gell-Mann has recently opined that Bohr & Heisenberg "brainwashed" a generation of physicists into thinking QM was complete.

Quantum Non-Realism, If Many-Worlds Had Come First

"But where does yellow come in? he will say: In my picture not at all, but these kinds of vibrations, when they hit the retina of a healthy eye, give the person whose eye it is the sensation of yellow." (Schrodinger)

Where Physics Meets Experience

"It seems clear that the present quantum mechanics is not in its final form [...] I think it very likely, or at any rate quite possible, that in the long run Einstein will turn out to be correct." (Dirac)

Einstein was correct. Spooky Action at a Distance: The No-Communication Theorem

"Anyone dissatisfied with these ideas may feel free to assume that there are additional parameters not yet introduced into the theory which determine the individual event." (Born)

Bell's Theorem: No EPR "Reality".

I realize this is a long series, but in the name of all cute kittens, don't tell me what it doesn't address until you actually read it! For the love of Belldandy, Montressor! This is a medium-sized book we're dealing with, designed specifically to reveal quantum mechanics as non-mysterious! Does it really not occur to you that these points might be, oh, addressed?

comment by balls · 2008-06-12T21:34:55.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

tl;dr

comment by John_Thomas · 2008-06-12T21:36:19.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Hmm, I wonder what Steven Hawkings has to say about this theory.

JT http://www.FireMe.To/udi

comment by Brian_Miller · 2008-06-12T21:48:42.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thanks, Eliezer, and fair enough, but in the context of "Hello! You may have been directed to this page because you said something along the lines of Science has disproved the idea of an objective reality," ...

I'm not sure how the Seed article on Zeilinger's work fits in here:

"But whereas Bell's work could not distinguish between realism and locality, Leggett's did. The two could be tested."

"If quantum mechanics described the data, then the lights' polarizations didn't exist before being measured. Realism in quantum mechanics would be untenable."

"The data defied the predictions of Leggett's model by three orders of magnitude. Though they could never observe it, the polarizations truly did not exist before being measured."

"Leggett agrees with Zeilinger that realism is wrong in quantum mechanics ..."

"Late last year Brukner and Kofler showed that it does not matter how many particles are around, or how large an object is, quantum mechanics always holds true." (Macrorealism)

"It could very well be that the distinction we make between information and reality is wrong. This is not saying that everything is just information. But it is saying that we need a new concept that encompasses or includes both." (Zeilinger)

Just looking for an orientation from a layperson-with-some-physics-background perspective trying to resolve an apparent difference (if not contradiction).

comment by Thomas_Wright · 2008-06-13T00:13:38.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Brilliant post! I kinda think a lot of your general points about science (in the intro) are also highly applicable to a personal interest of mine: Consciousness. I might follow your lead and start to 'curate' a collection of relevant papers books etc that demystify consciousness without belittling it. Once again, great work!

comment by Richard7 · 2008-06-13T05:31:02.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Is it going to be an explanation of Cramer's Transactional Interpretation?

comment by mitchell_porter2 · 2008-06-13T05:50:44.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Brian M: the basic rule is that if a physicist says something which sounds like mysticism, solipsism, or irrationalism, you ignore it. They are occupational hazards for the philosophizing physicist; you are hearing the effects of a "workplace injury" and nothing more.

comment by mitchell_porter2 · 2008-06-13T06:33:29.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

To respond to the SEED article at slightly greater length... We can start by trying to get a grip on what they mean by "realism". Zeilinger himself says "to give up realism about the moon, that's ridiculous". So the so-called rejection of realism doesn't involve anything like the abandonment of belief in reality (whatever that could mean), just an abandonment of belief in the reality of some things. Calling that a rejection of realism may be rhetorical excess; it is as if I believed there was a cake in the cupboard, discovered there wasn't, and as a result proclaimed that realism about the cake had been falsified.

However, Zeilinger says, "on the quantum level we do have to give up realism". So what does that mean? We believe in things made of particles (like the moon), but not the particles themselves? We believe that big things, like the moon, have properties, but that small ones, like particles, do not? In the end, it seems we are to abandon the belief that small things have properties before we look. No, wait, we are to abandon the belief that small things have the properties we see them to have before we looked. Well, what if they had some other property before we looked, and then the act of looking (measuring, more precisely) perturbed them into a new state with new properties? That would seem to be entirely consistent with what they describe, but what does that have to do with the 'falsification of realism'?

Do I sound exasperated? Pardon me. It is just that there is so, so much nonsense propagated by physicists in the name of physics, and then further passed on by credulous people who are in no position to make an independent judgement about what they've been hearing. The situation is something like this: We have quantum mechanics, which works experimentally. Traditionally, the quantum states (wavefunctions) are not regarded as the fundamental reality of things, they're just a quasi-statistical description which happens to work. So, on the one hand, we have a variety of attempts to explain what the fundamental reality might actually be, and on the other hand, we have - complacency, basically. A frame of mind which is content to use QM as it is, apply it, extend it, but not to dig deeper. Returning to the attempts at a deeper explanation, we have, as SEED mentions, Bohm's theory, which is a nonlocal theory. So long as quantum mechanics continues to work experimentally, Bohm's theory will never be falsified, because it makes exactly the same predictions as quantum theory. On the other hand, Leggett apparently produced a nonlocal theory which does make slightly different predictions. Zeilinger's group did the experiments, quantum mechanics was right, Leggett was wrong - and this is trumpeted as a falsification of realism on the quantum level, for absolutely no good reason that I can see. It is, I suppose, a falsification of the particular postulates that Leggett was trying to uphold, but calling this a falsification of realism is like saying that not finding the cake in the cupboard was a falsification of realism.

comment by steve5 · 2008-06-13T07:58:26.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

1st

comment by captbob · 2008-06-13T17:08:02.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Well, that cleared it up for me.

comment by Brian_Flanagan · 2008-06-13T20:30:22.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"...don't tell me what it doesn't address until you actually read it!"

Sorry, but I've heard it all before and remain unimpressed.

"Decoherence," e.g., is often cited as though it's established fact -- and never mind that it might more aptly be called "incoherence."

On the whole, it resembles a steaming pile of what "everybody knows."

comment by Brian_Miller · 2008-06-14T17:35:12.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I had a feeling it would come down to "it depends what you mean by realism" even though (1) realism as "preexisting properties" seems to have been disproved on a quantum level and (2) macrorealism apparently also fails.

So I'm supposed to ignore Leggett and Zeilinger? I did go read Quantum Non-Realism and came away non-enlightened, largely because of the use of the word "consciousness" which seems to be as fuzzy for physicists as quantum reality is for philosophers.

I don't think Zeilinger was "philosophizing" -- they were trying to hire an actual philospher.

comment by Eliezer Yudkowsky (Eliezer_Yudkowsky) · 2008-06-14T20:39:16.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Brian Miller, I referred you to Bell's Theorem, not "Quantum Non-Realism".

comment by jason4 · 2008-06-17T02:22:32.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Just wanted to say thanks for all the time you spent putting this together. Really good stuff.

comment by Schroedinger's_Ghost · 2008-06-25T01:38:26.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I must just say:

Stop talking down on Bohr&Heisenberg when you are doing exactly the same thing. MWI is a joke in the minds of serious physicists. Only David Deutsch (who got the most post-modern crazy ideas in history) claims it's truth, and you jump on the wave.

As Hilary Putnam put it "Because talking about probability in MWI is pointless, the whole hypothesis is incoherent" The bullshit desperate polls people pull up "LOOK HOW MANY BELIEVES IN IT" is a logical fallacy, appeal to authority.

Murray Gell-Man is often presented as a advocate of MWI, but he says he believes in ONE real universe. Hmm? Same with Stephen Hawking. As for Stephen Weinberg, he doesn't even pay attention to interpretations, search for his e-mail exchanges with Shelden Goldstein on the Bohm interpretation.

Bohm pilot wave theory was proposed already in 1926 by de-Broglie but was overlooked because of non locality which has been demonstrated against every loophole. So it really came first, and if it wasn't for Bohr, Heisenberg and Pauli, the quantum mechanics would be bohmian mechanics and solved long time ago. It saves realism, deals with, errrh, predicted non locality, before it was even demonstrated to be a fact of nature. It saves the single universe, energy conservation, the philosophy of SCIENCE and the scientific method and empericism.

Sorry hands down Bohm

MWI can't even be called science, not even pseudo science, pure ficiton.

comment by Tim_Tyler · 2008-06-25T02:08:15.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Re: Bohm saving the (single) universe:

Most of Bohm's adherents do not seem to understand (or even be aware of) Everett's criticism, section VI [1], that the hidden- variable particles are not observable since the wavefunction alone is sufficient to account for all observations and hence a model of reality. The hidden variable particles can be discarded, along with the guiding quantum-potential, yielding a theory isomorphic to many-worlds, without affecting any experimental results.
comment by Bohmian · 2008-07-26T19:33:11.000Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Well, shows how little Everett understood bohm, the particles are not the hidden variables, the particles are our universe. The wavefunction alone is not enough to describe anything, if thts all that exist, nothing exists and we wouldnt have this conversation...but we exist so we do...

MWI also doesnt work with borns probability rule.

comment by Dan_Moore · 2009-07-13T20:48:46.522Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This appears to be an impressive series of articles. Kudos on writing it.

The impression that I get is that the measurement problem is still common to all QM interpretations. Not so much when 'exactly' does decoherence occur, but when, approximately, does decoherence occur. It occurs whenever there is a measurement, and possibly (rarely) at other times, although there is no experimental evidence for the latter.

Replies from: orthonormal
comment by orthonormal · 2009-07-13T21:25:31.261Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Your impression is mistaken when it comes to Many Worlds; decoherence is a continuously occurring process which has nothing to do with any 'observers', but only with the way probability mass stretches itself out into different regions of configuration space according to the Schrödinger equation. It'll make more sense once you've read some of these posts, I promise.

Replies from: Dan_Moore
comment by Dan_Moore · 2009-07-13T22:26:05.346Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

(comment edited): Consider an experiment performed which illustrates the watchdog effect. A radioactive molecule has a half-life of an hour. The molecule is repeatedly measured every second, with a resulting delay in the decay of the molecule, consistent with the hypothesis that the half-life is reset upon each measurement.

This experiment seems to show that upon measurement, something happens, whether it be called collapse of the wave function or XYZ. And, if there is no measurement, that 'something' does not happen.

If you think that all worlds are just as real as our world, then under the MWI interpretation you can say that the multiverse is intact. However, the series of measurements has nudged our world to a part of the multiverse where the molecule decays later than it (probably) would have.

comment by secularmoralist · 2012-10-17T23:36:04.357Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thank you.