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comment by Dagon · 2024-02-07T16:57:41.249Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I'm not sure this can be discussed rationally online, without a LOT of context and trust that's impossible in an open forum.  

I will say that your description doesn't fit my experience or models of people's reactions at all.  It's likely not the same across countries (regardless of WEIRD heritage), nor across families or local cultures.  I've had a few friends and a number of acquaintances kill themselves, and more undertake risky behaviors that could be considered unsuccessful attempts.  In ZERO cases was it compared to murder or murder-victimhood.  They're just different domains of judgement.

From what I experienced (in the Western side of the United States), Level and type of empathy varies WIDELY but is on median positive - generally focused on emotional pain and weakness of faith/character.  There CAN be some adverse judgment about the lifestyle or subculture that led to the pain and failure to find alternatives, but I've never seen it compared to murder or any violent other-victimizing.

Replies from: JBlack, lubinas
comment by JBlack · 2024-02-08T04:45:31.952Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It's definitely not the case in my social circles either. When suicide or attempted suicide has happened within groups of people I know, the reaction has mostly been similar to something terrible having happened to that person, like cancer or a traffic accident. Anger mostly temporary, except sometimes in those closest. Confusion often, like "why did they do it?", but not "what a horrible person for having done it" as I see for killers or attempted killers.

comment by lubinas · 2024-02-07T19:10:04.625Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Yeah, that might be me not factoring my own environment out of it as much as I thought. In my case, there has been a lot of recrimination about failure of character, about taking something from everyone else without enough consideration as to how it would cause them harm, implicitly stating that an offense has been incurred. Its not the main reaction, but definitely more common than I would have expected. As to 

I'm not sure this can be discussed rationally online, without a LOT of context and trust that's impossible in an open forum.  

it might very well be the case, but sufficient context and trust has been reached to meaningfully engage other taboo topics already. I'm not sure It can be reached here, but cant confidently discard it either. 

Lastly, the murder-victim approach I used is just a possible explanation for something I consider a discrepancy. I'm not all that in love with the idea myself, but I didn't mean it as literal arguments people will explicitly consider but rather as hidden euristics that might explain it. I've seen very few cases where it is explicitly talked about in that lense, and only after starting to read into the subject in more depth, so those are more academic/philosophic digestions than actual world observations