A sketch of 'Simulacra Levels and their Interactions'

post by Yoav Ravid · 2020-08-04T09:13:21.781Z · score: 28 (7 votes) · LW · GW · 2 comments

Two sketches i made based on Simulacra Levels and their Interactions [LW · GW]. These are just sketches right now, i intend to make something better looking in the future (this is especially true for the first image). but i'd love to hear ideas and get feedback on these early versions.

The above diagram would look much better if there was symmetry. but the post misses some combos, some of which i also can't see how they're applicable (L1 & L2, for example).

The colors seem too happy for the topic to be honest :)

Here i also made a Venn version. it has my idea for the ideologue [LW(p) · GW(p)], and then the only ones missing are (1, 3 & 4 VS 2) and (1 & 4). for the former i have a hard time thinking of something that would fit there, and for the latter I'm pretty sure there's isn't something that fits there.

2 comments

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comment by SDM · 2020-08-05T10:09:47.712Z · score: 18 (6 votes) · LW(p) · GW(p)

Harry Frankfurt's On Bullshit seems relevant here. I think its worth trying to incorporate Frankfurt's definition as well, as it is quite widely known, see e.g. this video - If you were to do so, I think you would say that on Frankfurt's definition, Level 1 tells the truth, Level 2 lies, Level 3 bullshits about physical facts but will lie or tell the truth about things in the social realm (e.g. others motives, your own affiliation), and Level 4 always bullshits.

Taken this way, Frankfurt's model is a higher-level model that distinguishes the ones who care about reality from the ones that don't - roughly speaking, bullshit characterises levels 3 and 4 as the ones unconcerned with reality.

If you did it on the diagram, the union of 3 and 4 would be bullshitters, but shading more strongly towards the 4 end.

comment by Yoav Ravid · 2020-08-05T10:30:50.660Z · score: 6 (3 votes) · LW(p) · GW(p)

I like this. so instead of having the politician role and the politics 'theme', both for L3+L4, we can have the bullshitter role and the politics theme. 

i think your L1 (honestly telling the truth) and L2 (Lies) are good. and i think i would slightly reword L3 as bullshitting while pretending not to bullshit, and L4 as bullshitting without even pretending.

and oh! that gives me a unifying theme for L1 and L4, not pretending! (or at least not needing to) 
it's not an optimistic one, but alas it's a connection.

Thanks for the video btw. i Also should really read his essay already :D