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comment by Dagon · 2022-05-08T14:45:25.134Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I dropped out. Or maybe failed out - it wasn't a reasoned choice, I just couldn't make myself do it. It was long enough ago that the world is different, and you and I are different, so don't take this too seriously, but I estimate it slowed me down by about a decade in getting really good at software engineering.
I think you're over-generalizing quite a bit. The probabilities of future trajectory are very lumpy, and "optionality" doesn't mean much without specifying the options you're talking about. More importantly, you're using far-mode arguments (general, long-term, non-specific) for pro and near-mode (specific scenarios that you have to actually do) for contra, which is going to be a painful awakening when you have to actually act.
If you actually have that better thing lined up, I think it's a pretty straightforward decision. If you don't, it's a lot tougher to predict whether it exists. The standard advice (which is easy to give and hard to take) is "do both". Absolutely you should pass the classes you're in now. Simply no question. And see how far you get at lining up the specific thing you'd do if you didn't re-enroll. You may find you can do a lot during school. You may find that you WANT to drop out to do this other thing. You may find that the other thing doesn't exist (or can't be found).
What you DON'T want to do is cross a random bridge, burn it to avoid retreat, and then find out that it was the wrong bridge.
Replies from: dkirmani, Aidan O'Gara↑ comment by dkirmani · 2022-05-08T15:14:01.736Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
More importantly, you're using far-mode arguments (general, long-term, non-specific) for pro and near-mode (specific scenarios that you have to actually do) for contra, which is going to be a painful awakening when you have to actually act.
This is a very, very important point. Thank you. I intended to talk about concrete non-college plans under "opportunity costs", but never got there.
- No matter what, my cofounders and I will spend at least the summer developing Poetic. If Poetic takes off, wonderful, but the default outcome is that it will die.
- If Poetic does die, I can use its corpse for cover during the job hunt. To quote lsusr, who's quoting Paul Graham:
When I was 24 I had a hard time getting a job as a software developer. As an self-taught engineer, I had no credentials.
To make sure I asked some friends who work for big companies. I asked managers at Yahoo, Google, Amazon, Cisco and Microsoft how they'd feel about two candidates, both 24, with equal ability, one who'd tried to start a startup that tanked, and another who'd spent the two years since college working as a developer at a big company. Every one responded that they'd prefer the guy who'd tried to start his own company. So there you have it. Want to get hired by Yahoo? Start your own company.
"Hey," I thought, "I'm 24. I can game the system! If I start a startup with the deliberate intention to fail after a few months then I can get hired as a software developer."
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I am 90% certain I can get hired at Introspective Systems, as my internship there was pretty transparently part of a talent recruitment pipeline, and the CTO told me college was a scam and tried to talk me out of going.
- The uncertainty arises from the fact that that CTO has since passed away. However, the current CEO was her wife, and she was nice to me too.
- I could resolve this uncertainty by calling them and asking for a job, but that would imply that I wouldn't be working on Poetic full-time, and I don't want to cut off my exposure to right-tail risk and/or throw my cofounders under the bus.
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I also have a pipe-dream where I convince an EA institution to pay me money to feed mice lamivudine in my backyard, and record its effect upon the aging process. Worth pursuing, but not a secure career path by any means.
↑ comment by aogara (Aidan O'Gara) · 2022-05-08T19:50:03.407Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
“If you actually have that better thing lined up, I think it's a pretty straightforward decision. If you don't, it's a lot tougher to predict whether it exists.”
Great point. If you can support yourself with a full-time paid job at Poetic or another organization, you can feel confident and secure leaving school for a while. Also, you don’t have to “drop out” — you can take a semester or two or four off, and your university is very likely to readmit you if you decide to go back to school.
I dropped out of college after my freshman year to work at a startup. It was a great experience and I’m glad I did it. After about two years, I realized I needed more formal training in CS and ML in order to move from industry data science to AI safety and other more difficult career paths. I transferred to a new school that is much better socially and academically than my first school, with a much better sense of my academic goals.
You can find a stable, respectable option for leaving school and preserving optionality to return. Introspective Systems already sounds like that option (send them an email!). Other startups would probably hire you, you can send emails to YC founders to find out. EA orgs and funding are more difficult in my experience, but you might have better luck. Finally, with all the respect in the world for attempting ambitious work in an important field, I would caution against pinning too much on Poetic. Undergraduates very rarely found successful startups, even less so in research-intensive industries dominated by PhDs such as NLP. If you find somebody older and more experienced who’s doing something you’d like to do, you can put school on hold while safely preserving optionality to return.
comment by Dave5 · 2022-05-08T21:03:27.165Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
As someone who evaluates and mentors young software engineers as part of his living and has for about thirty years now, "dropped out of UIUC to found an interesting startup" would strike me as being good a resume' on average as "fresh CS grad from UIUC". What I would be worried about is the variance. I would grill very hard during the interview cycle, and skip no steps. The upside of the first candidate is at least as high as the second (probably higher), but the downside risks (e.g, that they are just a bullshit artist or a prima donna) are higher. Hiring young software engineers is very much a matter of expected value calculations ("moneyball", in the trade), and negative-EV engineers are very real possibilities.
That said, I very much wish you well. I've counseled three young engineers in my career to go pro without finishing college. None of them took the advice, but I'm pretty sure two of them would have had better outcomes if they did. In my experience, UIUC is a uniquely horrible environment, so much so that flight from there should always be a consideration.
Replies from: dkirmani↑ comment by dkirmani · 2022-05-08T21:18:47.196Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
As someone who evaluates and mentors young software engineers as part of his living and has for about thirty years now, "dropped out of UIUC to found an interesting startup" would strike me as being good a resume' on average as "fresh CS grad from UIUC". What I would be worried about is the variance.
This information is absolutely priceless to me. Thank you so much! One way or another, your comment will be instrumental to my career decision(s).
In my experience, UIUC is a uniquely horrible environment, so much so that flight from there should always be a consideration.
This rings true to me. I know a guy majoring in data science at Carnegie Mellon that says it's pretty glum there as well.
Replies from: Dave5↑ comment by Dave5 · 2022-05-08T21:42:16.970Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
>This information is absolutely priceless to me. Thank you so much!
Don't hesitate to ask me anything.
>I know a guy majoring in data science at Carnegie Mellon that says it's pretty glum there as well.
On an hour-by-hour basis my time at UIUC was about as enjoyable as my time in jail, but that's admittedly a question of four years vs. twenty hours. My best friend went to CMU, and he concurs. I mentored him straight out of college, was best man at his wedding, and he's now a CTO at a 120-person startup where I work for him.
Replies from: dkirmani↑ comment by dkirmani · 2022-05-08T22:15:38.263Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
On an hour-by-hour basis my time at UIUC was about as enjoyable as my time in jail, but that's admittedly a question of four years vs. twenty hours. My best friend went to CMU, and he concurs.
Wow. That bad, huh?
Don't hesitate to ask me anything.
I'll probably update significantly on most things you have to say on mentoring and evaluation, simply because it directly impacts my future, and you seem both capable and credible. What I really want to know, though, is this:
In your value estimation, a UIUC CS dropout-turned-founder has about the same EV as a UIUC CS grad, but with significantly higher variance. To what extent is this view the consensus among those responsible for evaluating software talent? Would many of your colleagues instead see the dropout-turned-founder as lower-EV (or maybe even higher-EV), but don't give much consideration to variance?
To someone who knows that universities operate upon selection effects, getting into a selective college is almost as impressive as graduating from it, but most people subscribe to the mythos that the degree is what matters (as illustrated by the sheepskin effect), which might mean that talent evaluators that read LW favor the dropout more than those who don't.
Replies from: Dave5↑ comment by Dave5 · 2022-05-08T23:49:00.536Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
In your value estimation, a UIUC CS dropout-turned-founder has about the same EV as a UIUC CS grad, but with significantly higher variance. To what extent is this view the consensus among those responsible for evaluating software talent? Would many of your colleagues instead see the dropout-turned-founder as lower-EV (or maybe even higher-EV), but don't give much consideration to variance?
You've got it backwards. You want hiring folk thinking deeply on variance, because variance means there is a sizable upside tail. Finding overlooked young developers in the upside tail is How We Win. Admittedly, the variance also means we also end up looking at folk in the downside tail, and your circumstances mean that we have to be even more careful than usual about those risks. These risks include beauties like "has he ever coded at all?" (Yes, we get applications for 100K junior developer jobs from people who have never opened a text editor), "Does she think this job is beneath her?" (good lord, you'd be surprised how often that happens, particularly from new grads "from Boston"), "Have they ever shown any capacity to ship production software?" (This one can catch academics, who may very well be geniuses but have trouble shipping at tempo and with quality.), and "Is there any chance they will stay for two years?" (That's about the break-even point for new-fledged junior developers. It's also where I would personally be most concerned about you, given your dialog above.) People looking to hire junior software developers have to start by filtering downside tails, with the knowledge that if they miss one that's a six-figure mistake. But, if your hiring process is good enough to filter those downside risks, then you really want variance, because it gives you a chance to find overlooked alpha in the form of excellent young'uns. If you do represent overlooked alpha, trust me when I say we are very primed (and very often incented) to notice it. We call it "moneyball" for a reason.
To someone who knows that universities operate upon selection effects, getting into a selective college is almost as impressive as graduating from it, but most people subscribe to the mythos that the degree is what matters (as illustrated by the sheepskin effect), which might mean that talent evaluators that read LW favor the dropout more than those who don't
I'm a fan of this community, but they haven't cornered the market on seeing past the common wisdom. My fallback way back when I was in your position was to go start coding in the bond pits on LaSalle Street. You talk about Immoral Mazes at FAANG, but that ain't nothing. Those traders were about one step more pleasant than mafioso, and I wasn't doing anything but making some numbers bigger for them. That said, they were extremely good at seeing talent and paying it exactly as much as necessary to keep it. Good software startup folk (not just developers and managers but HR as well) know this as well. If they don't see "two-year UIUC dropout + founder" as someone they might be interested in, then you really don't want to work for them.
(Disclosure: at no point in this have I indicated that I am not interested in recruiting you. I may read as weird-but-benign-and-maybe-even-wise greybeard, but do not assume complete altruism on my part.)
Replies from: dkirmani↑ comment by dkirmani · 2022-05-09T01:15:33.458Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
More good stuff, thank you again.
"Is there any chance they will stay for two years?"
Ahh, so that's why companies want you to be "aligned with their mission" so badly.
My fallback way back when I was in your position was to go start coding in the bond pits on LaSalle Street. Those traders were about one step more pleasant than mafioso, and I wasn't doing anything but making some numbers bigger for them. That said, they were extremely good at seeing talent and paying it exactly as much as necessary to keep it.
I like making positive impact, and I like making money. Both would be optimal, but either one is leagues better than neither, so under my value system, I would count your move as a very positive one.
If they don't see "two-year UIUC dropout + founder" as someone they might be interested in, then you really don't want to work for them.
I've heard this sentiment on Hacker News often, and always chalked it up to sour grapes. Glad to hear that there's some truth to it. Also, I'd be a one-year dropout, not a two-year one, if that changes your evaluation significantly. However, I'm technically a junior, since I took a bunch of classes at UMaine during high school (including DS&A, Linear Algebra, and "ML").
(Disclosure: at no point in this have I indicated that I am not interested in recruiting you. I may read as weird-but-benign-and-maybe-even-wise greybeard, but do not assume complete altruism on my part.)
That's perfectly fine by me. If you see me as a potential source of alpha, I'd be willing to help you test that hypothesis :)
Replies from: Dave5↑ comment by Dave5 · 2022-05-09T17:11:28.814Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Ahh, so that's why companies want you to be "aligned with their mission" so badly.
Right. Between search costs, orientation time on the codebase and business, mentor/team lead time spent teaching, inevitable moderate fuck-ups, and general odds and sods, a good junior developer at a pure software company is accruing negative value their first year, and is net negative until nearly their second. A bad junior developer is negative EV until you can figure that out and fire him, which can easily take over a year. Additionally, junior developers will, more often than not, leave around year four, due to desire to learn something best learned elsewhere, vesting cliffs, or just life's inevitable changes. If this sounds like a horrible investment, the upside is senior developers. In the right business they're pure money-spinning machines, and they need junior developers around. The most valuable thing a junior developer can produce is their future selves as a senior.
The difference between a one-year and a two-year dropout is material (decreasing the flight risk), but diligent and productive time spent as founder will certainly fix that. Don't half-ass that. Even if your startup fails (which as you note is likely), you need to end up with connections, skills, and stories.
Do ace your Calculus III, though. If the pandemic has taught us anything it's that most of humanity fundamentally doesn't get differential equations and as such can barely think about a large range of situations. You certainly don't want to be one of those folk.
Replies from: Dagon↑ comment by Dagon · 2022-05-09T17:34:03.454Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Do ace your Calculus III, though. If the pandemic has taught us anything it's that most of humanity fundamentally doesn't get differential equations and as such can barely think about a large range of situations.
I want to highlight this extremely good object-level advice. There are a number of topics that are much easier to learn with the structure of college-level classes than on your own. I don't know current curricula well enough to know if "ace the class" is a good proxy for "internalize the topic", but make sure you do the latter. As long as you're there, get the best value you can from it.
comment by Sable · 2022-05-09T14:45:05.778Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
My two cents as someone who burned out with a full depressive episode in their junior year of an electrical engineering degree and managed to limp all the way to graduation:
- Don't underestimate the magnitude of what can go wrong in your head. I've got some genetic factors and some childhood stuff that likely contributed, but anxiety and depression can and will cripple you for years if you let them.
- Get a blood test at your earliest convenience; make sure that you're not low on vitamin B12 or D, or have anything else obviously wrong. I've heard enough stories about things like this (and had deficiencies myself) that indicate this is high-value. It's also not hard to do or expensive (just ask your family doctor or the University Health Center; make sure to specify that you're curious about those deficiencies in particular).
- Don't fall for false dichotomies. You're clearly smart enough to get creative.
- One suggestion I've seen in this thread is taking a semester/year off to go work, which your University should be fine with.
- Another suggestion, if you believe there is inherent value in a degree, is to Goodhart the degree itself. Read this - you can consciously engage in half-assing your degree with everything you've got. In other words, diplomas don't include grades. In other other words, Cs get degrees. Feel free to put in the absolute minimum that has you passing, take the easiest electives, etc., and spend the time you get back on other things.
- Once you've had your first job, no one cares where you got your degree from. Spending 55k per year is absurd - transfer to a cheaper college, or take a look at your local community college. Most community colleges will have an agreement with four-year colleges for credits to transfer. Drop out and enroll there, get the freshman/sophomore/core credits over with, then transition to a cheaper/online college for the degree. You can also take this slowly - one community college class a semester can be done simultaneously with a full-time job, if you're so inclined, and most four-year colleges will have something for people with jobs.
- Reframe the question: if you've got three years left, each costing 55k, then would you willingly take 165k right now to walk away? Would that 165k be worth more to you than an additional three years of education at college?
- I honestly don't believe that student loan debt is ever worth it, especially not for programmers. Doctors maybe, but that's about it. Whatever you do, plan out how you're going to wind up debt-free at the end. Scholarships are great. So is working. Debt isn't.
- Isn't MIT's entire curriculum online? Is there anything you can realistically gain from your current university that you can't get yourself in other ways? Is the alumni network super valuable? Is there an incubator you could take advantage of?
And a couple of general decision-helpers I like to use:
- It's twenty years later, and you're looking back on your life. What will you regret not having done more, finishing your degree or striking out on your own?
- Take out a fair coin. Heads you get the degree, tails you walk away. Flip the coin, and pay attention to how you feel. Are you hoping for a specific result? Will you be disappointed with a different result? The face the coin lands on is irrelevant. In the moment it was in the air, spinning, what did you want it to land on?
- You are considering Deviating from The Path. Deviating from The Path invites risk, not only of failure, but of scorn. Look at the dropout, they'll whisper as you pass. I guess he didn't know better than us after all. Too bad, really. He had a good thing and lost it. Can you endure that? Do you care? Does it matter to you, if that's what people think? Remember that dissent feels like wearing a clown suit [LW · GW].
- Humans are loss-averse. Tip the scales slightly in favor of the riskier option, knowing that you're in a profession where the worst you'll do is still better than most of the people who have ever lived.
- Do a pre-mortem: you drop out, do your startup, and fail. You apply to the company you mentioned and are rejected. You've left college and you've got no job, no startup, no hope. What went wrong? What can you do now to lower the probability that it will go wrong, or to soften the blow when it does?
- Sleep on it.
- Sleep on it again.
- Read better advice than mine.
Good luck.
Replies from: ViktoriaMalyasova, mruwnik↑ comment by ViktoriaMalyasova · 2022-05-10T17:07:21.732Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Cs get degrees
True. But if you ever decide to go for a PhD, you'll need good grades to get in. If you'll want to do research (you mentioned alignment research there?), you'll need a publication track record. For some career paths, pushing through depression is no better than dropping out.
Replies from: Sable↑ comment by Sable · 2022-05-10T19:10:42.585Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Also true.
I suspect (without any real evidence) that the publication track record is more important than the grades, if graduate school or a doctorate is the goal. A C average undergrad with last authorship on a couple of great papers seems to me to look better than a straight-A student without any authorship, although I've no idea if it works that way in practice.
↑ comment by mruwnik · 2022-05-10T16:37:02.767Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
if you believe there is inherent value in a degree, is to Goodhart the degree itself
This (and the whole false dichotomy point). There is a large difference between an education and a diploma. A piece of paper saying you had a higher education can often be useful, so it's worth having (e.g. a work visa in many countries), but is pretty much fungible in most cases. Unless you value the defense contractor job and/or don't have any other experience...
The current programming market seems to value practical skills a lot more than where you went to university - pretty much what Dave5 said. I also agree with Pro in that if this suddenly changes because of AI, you'll probably have much bigger problems.
An education, though - that's valuable. I have the impression that the better people that I worked with tend to have gotten at least an undergraduate level and usually more. Most subjects aren't that useful, but they give you an overview of the whole field, which is valuable when encountering new problems.
comment by Sam Marks (samuel-marks) · 2022-05-08T21:16:24.730Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Relevant: Mark Xu's recent (short) EA forum post 'Dropping out isn't a plan [EA · GW].
comment by cata · 2022-05-09T02:32:50.048Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I skipped college and became a programmer. About 15 years later, I have yet to ever see one single piece of evidence that any employer or recruiter has, at any point, ever had the thought, "I would think better of this candidate if they had a degree." I have had offers from Google, Facebook, and Microsoft (none of which I accepted, so they don't show up on my resume), and recruiters spam me constantly, so this isn't just a tiny eccentric startup thing. Maybe IBM cares. Do you specifically want to work for IBM that bad?
Presuming you can do the usual other stuff to demonstrate your competence and find jobs, which I think is likely if you are hanging out posting dialogues on LW (e.g. you are really good at programming, sharp sounding, publicly visible work, charismatic, willing to approach people) I think you should assume the degree is a totally worthless piece of paper and work from there.
(Obvious caveats: Maybe this doesn't work outside of Silicon Valley culture, or maybe it doesn't work well until you have one job on your resume, or maybe it doesn't work if you don't look like a stereotypical hacker type, or something. I can mostly only speak to my own experience.)
comment by Shmi (shminux) · 2022-05-08T20:16:42.131Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Kudos for writing the internal dialog down! Mine wooshes by so fast, I can never do it.
I'd point out that your decisions should not be based on "what if AGI..." as the Contra part says. Also, if you are super low to the point of burnout and suicidal ideation, something has to change sooner rather than later. Maybe this particular school or a program is not for you, maybe you are not doing it right, or maybe doing it full time is a problem, or maybe there is something else you have overlooked. It's not a dichotomy stay/leave, there are almost always more options. Consider some creative ones.
comment by Viliam · 2022-05-09T20:10:07.268Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
It seems to me that the actual problem here is depression. And an important question is whether your model (school will make you depressed, anything else will make you happy) is correct. If it is, then obviously you should drop out, because no diploma is better than diploma+suicide.
But it seems to me that you ignore the possibility of addressing the depression while staying at school, by doing something differently. For example, virtual classes suck, because you spend a lot of time alone. But maybe some of your classmates have the same problem, and some of them might be willing to meet in person, either after the classes, or maybe even some form of "coworking" where you would sit next to each other and watch the same lesson together.
If you think that school is mindless obedience training, wait until you experience JIRA tickets and daily "agile" meetings. Spending 8.5 hours at job, plus an hour or two of commute, means that you leave your home in the morning and return in the evening... how many days of vacation do you get in USA each year? anyway, the latest trend is "unlimited PTO" which in practice means even less... now keep doing this 5 days a week, for 50 years. On the other hand, it's not like you can actually avoid this by staying at school...
Would it make sense to start working on your big project while staying at school? That way, you could get some experience and a diploma, too. If the school doesn't leave you enough time and energy for your own projects, I would guess it will only get worse at a job. Maybe you could start some project together with your classmates.
No matter how you decide, whether you stay or leave -- stay in contact with your current classmates. It is called "networking" and it is how many people get their best jobs.
comment by Annabelle · 2022-05-12T23:31:16.324Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
To me, and I'm not a medical/social work professional, this looks like regular Depression. You allude to your diagnosis, but not your treatment. Are you getting treatment? If not, you should. Like any chronic illness, if left untreated, it could get worse.
So many questions: Are you meeting with a therapist regularly for talk therapy? Have you tried CBT? Are you on medication? Have you changed meds or doses recently? (You seem like someone who would read the fine print: suicidal ideation is a side effect of many psychiatric medications.) And there are activities that have been proven to help light to moderate depression: socializing, excercise (specifically playing soccer), sun exposure, gardening and knitting. (Google them). All of these are worth a shot.
As for the larger picture and preserving your options: take a leave of absence from UIUC, one that will allow you to return if you want later. Don't burn that bridge, which you admit you worked so hard to build. Try an exchange program for the fall, if you can (doing a geographical, that could help with depression, too.) Maybe you'll like studying in a different college, university, or country. Keep working at your startup, but not with the idea that it will fail, but with the idea that it will succeed. And look for that ideal software position that would be the professional choice. Get that lined up, work at it at least for the summer or a semester or two off and see if it is all you dream it to be. Then you'll know whether you want to go back and finish your degree or not.
You do mention outside pressures as reasons for staying in university. You mention family pressure - what is behind that? Is it because they think it's the best for you, or is it for their own prestige? Do they know it's making you depressed and suicidal? Likely they want the best for you, and they might not want you to stay if they know the toll it's taking on your mental health. If it's because it's their dream, not yours, you need to reject it. You can't live another's dream; it's your life.
Then there is also societal pressure to finish university. It's not just hiring managers, today and in the future it's more likely an HR algorithm that will eliminate you before anyone even sees your credentials. Therefore, your career path will be dependent on getting jobs through connections. If you're outgoing and great at self-promotion and networking, this might be realistic. (And you might still be able to use the UIUC alumni network even if you don't graduate, but beware those who are into alumni stuff are usually passionate about their alma mater in a good way.) There are also others in society that will judge you based on your university degree or lack thereof, but those considerations seem less important to you, at least now.
Lastly there is the question of education and experience, which are often gained from attending university, but not exclusively. Another mentions MIT's MOOC -- take a difficult class just to prove you can do it outside the regimen of a professor's timeline. Do you have the skills you need for the career/job you want? As mentioned above, get the job and find out.
I wish you well. I would say, first get help for your depression and then take it from there.
comment by Stephen McAleese (stephen-mcaleese) · 2022-05-10T18:33:42.086Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
You mention that the benefits of college would be credentials and connections. I don't think it was mentioned in the post that you can also expect to learn a lot during the degree about the fundamentals of Computer Science. Therefore, dropping out involves the opportunity cost of the information not learned in college.
In my opinion, the decision of whether or not to stick with college largely involves a decision to minimize opportunity cost involving a comparison of the opportunities college affords and the opportunities available outside of college. The ratio to be measured is the ratio of opportunities in college to those outside of college. The lower this ratio is, the more reasonable it is to drop out of college and vice versa.