Superstimuli, setpoints, and obesity

almost any "traditional" food seems to taste better than almost any "modern" food.

First, it is bad form to generate a new theory on the basis of your own personal taste. Second, where are you getting your information about what "traditional" food tasted like? Is it from nice restaurants that serve traditional food? Do you think such menus are reflective of what the average person ate 150 years ago? Big Macs are way better tasting than bread crust and mash.

almost any "traditional" food seems to taste better than almost any "modern" food.

How did you come by this notion? What are you counting as "traditional" food and what are you counting as "modern"?

My experience is that certain foods make me want to eat even when I'm full, while other foods don't.

I can stuff my face with highly nutritious foods (non-starchy vegetables) as well as not-so-nutritious foods (ground beef) without feeling out of control. When I decide I'm full, I stop eating, and can sit with leftovers in front of me while I chat with friends without a single desire to eat more.

On the other hand, there are nutritious foods (some fruits) as well as nutritionally empty foods (bread, pasta) that I will gladly eat even as my stomach feels like bursting. The only way for me to stop eating is to physically separate myself from the food.

The most likely theory, in my mind, is that carbs stimulate appetite, whereas protein and fiber don't. The only thing that doesn't fit that theory, in my experience, is nuts. When I have a bag of nuts in front of me I'll usually eat them until I'm sick, despite a low carb profile.

The main proximate cause of increase in human weight over the last few decades is over-eating

This seems to be (trivially?) true, but your post appears to be about obesity and your graph doesn't necessarily show anything about that. The increased food energy consumption could be due to reduced malnutrition / starvation or changed age structure (adolescents and working adults eating more than children and seniors).

I'm also not sure the super-stimulus theory is the dominant one. Evolutionary adaption to Malthusian circumstances seems at least as common to me, but I must admit I haven't read much about the topic.

Talking about diets and weight in terms of psychology is wrong, because the brain doesn't regulate appetite directly. A true explanation would be phrased in terms of biochemistry.

Just a bit of personal experience:

I looked into the Atkins/Paleo diet after Yudkowsky mentioned it, and the arguments were convincing enough for me to give it a try; I've switched to eating mainly vegetables and meat for the past couple months, with the occasional high-fibre bready thing thrown in (the fibre allegedly prevents the blood-sugar spike you get from carbs).

I am now back to my Summertime working-out waistline, despite pigging out on bacon-cheese rolls and being lazy as all hell. I feel healthy and fine - though I do miss carbs - and my muscle-mass is easier to generate, and has greater longevity.

I'm unable to locate the original post, but what Yudkowsky argued was that lack of rationality could lead to mortal effects, such as the politically-founded 'recommended diet' we've all been raised with; the history behind the food pyramid is more than a little suspect. I'd heartily recommend this diet for the rest of you (also, this diet should be a major consideration for present obesity levels).

The most common accepted answer is some sort of superstimulus theory - modern food is so tasty people find it irresistible. This seems backwards to me in its basic assumption - almost any "traditional" food seems to taste better than almost any "modern" food.

I do tend to enjoy traditional foods more when I eat them, I just don't crave them. For example, I enjoy the taste of homemade Hungarian paprikas more than anything else I eat, but it doesn't instill the cravings I used to get for a Big Mac, coke, and fries. The more we eat certain high calorie foods, the more powerful our cravings seem to become.

I suspect the superstimulus is more from the spike in blood sugar we get from calorically dense processed foods, rather than the super good taste.

The most common accepted answer is some sort of superstimulus theory - modern food is so tasty people find it irresistible.

Why modern food? Doesn't the answer work when modern is replaced by any? Modern food doesn't have to be tastier, it is enough if it is more easily obtained.

almost any "traditional" food seems to taste better than almost any "modern" food

As others have said, this is a very weak argument. First, you have to specify what you mean by modern and traditional food. I suspect that you may subconsciously conflate "traditional" and "tasty", so a specification would be helpful. Then you have to show that your preferences in eating generalise to other people. Finally, explain why modern food was ever invented when it is less tasty than the traditional one. I don't think that people change their eating habits towards less tasty food.

almost any "traditional" food seems to taste better than almost any "modern" food

As has been pointed out, modern "traditional" foods are of a quality that was available only to the very rich, if even them. Moreover, that perception is easily biased by social norms; it's fairly likely you have been predisposed to dislike foods more associated with low social class and poor health.

Also, "nutritious" does not mean what you think it means. People have a taste for nutrient rich foods, not nutrient dense foods, and the main nutrient scarcity in the ancestral environment was likely (if not almost invariably) macro-nutritional, i.e. people didn't get enough calories, rather than people didn't get enough vitamins (people might also have not gotten enough vitamins, but this is somewhat less urgent). If you're eating whatever natural food you can find, and you're getting a fair amount of calories, you're not terribly likely to be severely malnourished.

The result of this is that taste now directs people to nutrient rich foods, like red meat and refined grains, and they consume them in volumes that exceed what the body can properly process. Nutrient dense foods (like spinach), on the other hand, don't taste very good, because our ancestors were so busy trying to get enough to eat that if they found nutrient-dense foods tasty, they'd starve to death.

I'd throw out an exception to the micronutrient point: sodium. We're suckers for sodium. I'm not aware of any other micronutrients that we can really taste directly.

superstimulus theory says rich should be more obese, setpoint theory says poor should be more obese.

Controlling for inteligence and education.

Biggish typo in the graph title, you want "Energy" not "Enegery".

The "traditional" foods we like are, generally speaking, the high-calorie foods that the wealthy ate, not the diet of the typical person. (Practically anything with meat, or spices, or a sweet sauce, or fried in oil, etc, is a luxury food for any time period before ours.) There's no conflict here.

I think part of the issue is that food has gotten relatively cheaper and more convenient. Throw some mozzarella sticks in the microwave and they are ready in two minutes.

The general point of noticing when arguments are starting from backwards assumptions is a good one. This particular hypothesis also seems solid.

I would not ignore the impact of an internal stimulus other than tastiness in driving over-eating.

In the case of chocolate, for example, I have often continued to eat well passed the point at which both my common sense and even my taste have begun to object to satisfy a craving.

Here the craving is clearly visualised in the form of direct sugar and chocolate stimulating the pleasure senses. Knowing the impact allows me to focus will-power towards avoiding it and yet I still give in on occasion.

Now consider the stimulus hidden more deeply. MSG subtly adding to the flavour of a ready meal. It is well know that this can induce cravings in the same way (although perhaps not to the same extent, i don't have any data on this) as other drugs with more commonly understood addictive properties.

Could the same cravings not still be present driving the desire to continue eating beyond otherwise sensible levels? Without the clear visualisation of the problem, as it is hidden behind food that we have otherwise been trained to consider healthy, there is no internal defence.

Once you pop, you can't stop - wasn't just a rhyme.