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comment by [deactivated] (Yarrow Bouchard) · 2023-11-12T20:24:51.082Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Wish I knew why this post is getting downvoted to karma hell! :( 

Replies from: harfe, Mitchell_Porter, rsaarelm
comment by harfe · 2023-11-13T13:12:42.771Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Some of the downvotes were probably because of the unironic use of the term TESCREAL. This term mixes a bunch of different things together, which makes your writing less clear.

Replies from: Yarrow Bouchard
comment by [deactivated] (Yarrow Bouchard) · 2023-11-14T21:54:19.347Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

There is a strong argument that the term is bad and misleading. I will concede that.

comment by Mitchell_Porter · 2023-11-13T02:48:40.386Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I can't say why the downvotes. But regarding the topic itself...

The synthesis you want is intellectually possible, but I think it is unlikely to become popular. 

It's unlikely to be popular, first because the philosophies bundled disparagingly under the title "TESCREAL" seem to appeal only to a minority of people, and second for reasons specific to social justice. 

In support of the first point, note that indefinite life extension, reversing the aging process, etc, have never become a public priority in any polity. There is a fundamental resistance to such ideas, that transcends differences of ideology and culture. 

The flip side is that the people who do become transhumanists, etc, in theory can come from any background. 

In support of the second point, that there are factors specific to social justice which harden the resistance: it's simply the leveling impulse. One motivation of the left is to lift up ordinary people, but another motivation is to bring down the privileged. The second motivation is the one that easily turns against projects for transcending the human condition. 

Having said all that, progressivism is not luddism, and there may be corners of it where the synthesis you want, can take hold.  

Replies from: Yarrow Bouchard
comment by [deactivated] (Yarrow Bouchard) · 2023-11-13T03:35:28.349Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thanks for your comment.

...note that indefinite life extension, reversing the aging process, etc, have never become a public priority in any polity.

Is this really strong evidence for anything? For example, the Methuselah Foundation was founded in 2001 and the SENS Research Foundation was founded in 2009. Calico was founded in 2013. Altos Labs was founded in 2021. All this to say, the science of radical life extension is extremely new. There hasn't been much time for life extension to become a political cause.

One motivation of the left is to lift up ordinary people, but another motivation is to bring down the privileged. The second motivation is the one that easily turns against projects for transcending the human condition.

Is your argument that, in the same way leftists oppose the rich and powerful, they also oppose transhumans? I think they oppose the idea of only the rich and powerful getting to become transhuman. To the extent they oppose a world in which anyone can become transhuman, I think it has to do with fears related to eugenics, rather than considerations of wealth, power, or privilege.

Replies from: Mitchell_Porter
comment by Mitchell_Porter · 2023-11-14T08:25:49.772Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

the science of radical life extension is extremely new. There hasn't been much time for life extension to become a political cause.

The idea has been around for a long time. 

Winwood Reade, 1872: "Disease will be extirpated; the causes of decay will be removed; immortality will be invented."

George Bernard Shaw, 1921: "Our program is only that the term of human life shall be extended to three hundred years."

F.M. Esfandiary, 1970: "The real revolutionaries of today fight a different battle. They want to be alive in the year 2050 and in the year 20,000 and the year 2,000,000."

A religion can make unfulfilled promises, and still be believed after a thousand years. If the human race thought differently, radical life extension could have been adopted as an ideal and a goal at any time in the history of medicine, and upheld as a goal for however many centuries it took to achieve. But for whatever reasons, the idea did not take hold, and continues to not take hold. 

I certainly think that the scientific and cultural zeitgeist is more promising than ever before, but we're still talking about a minority opinion. The majority of adults are just not interested, and a significant minority will actively oppose a longevity movement. 

In my own opinion, the rise of AI changes everything anyway, because it foreshadows changes far more profound than human longevity. The pre-AI world was one of untold human generations repeating the same cycle of birth and death. It made some sense to say, why settle for lives being cut off in this way? Can we break out of these limits? 

The rise of AI means we now share the world with mercurial nonhuman intelligence, that can certainly assist a human or transhuman agenda if it leans that way, but which will also be capable of replacing us completely. And if the normal response to longevity activism is indifference because the ordinary lifespan is natural and OK, the normal response to AI takeover is going to be, fight the machines, turn them off, so that ordinary human life can go on. 

My prediction is, any movement to stop AI completely and indefinitely will fail, because elites want AI. They want the power it promises, they don't want to lose power to their competitors, and so they will keep pushing ahead, fateful thresholds will be crossed, and AI will be in charge. 

To the extent [leftists, progressives, etc] oppose a world in which anyone can become transhuman, I think it has to do with fears related to eugenics, rather than considerations of wealth, power, or privilege.

To a lot of people, "anyone can become transhuman" will sound like "anyone can become rich". The response to rich people aiming for space colonization or rejuvenation or mind uploading is usually, they should be spending their money on public health or education or infrastructure; not, how can we make outer space or transhumanity available to everyone and not just an elite. 

Again, social-justice transhumanism is a logically possible doctrine, and the more technological daily life becomes, the more it may organically take shape. But in my opinion, it is more likely to be a niche belief, like being a tankie or an anarchist. 

comment by rsaarelm · 2023-11-13T15:13:32.933Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Blithely adopting a term that seems to have been coined just for the purposes of doing a smear job makes you look like either a useful idiot or an enemy agent.

Replies from: Yarrow Bouchard
comment by [deactivated] (Yarrow Bouchard) · 2023-11-13T18:09:04.306Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I don’t think there’s anything inherently disparaging about the acronym.

Replies from: rsaarelm
comment by rsaarelm · 2023-11-13T18:21:21.555Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

There might not be, but it's not a thing in vacuum, it was coined with political intent and it's tangled with that intent.

Replies from: Yarrow Bouchard
comment by [deactivated] (Yarrow Bouchard) · 2023-11-13T18:55:09.095Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I guess sort of the point of this post is that, in the broadest sense, the political critique of so-called “TESCREAL” lacks imagination — about the possible connections between these -isms and social justice.