Harry Sue and The Methods of Rationality

Voted down on grounds of not wanting to see similar content as a top-level post here. This has a tenuous connection with advancing human rationality even by the standards of the discussion section; it would meet a more receptive audience among Methods of Rationality's ff.net reviews, or in the MoR discussion threads here or on tvtropes if ff.net has some arcane policy against less-than-gushing feedback or if you're trying to shame Eliezer among his peers.

In any case, I'm starting to suspect that accusations of Mary Sueishness, among people predisposed to care, produce biased discussion about as reliably as bringing up any of the canonical mind-killers. Let's keep that rotting carcass out of this well, shall we?

I decided to downvote this. Not because you're saying you dislike something that I love, but because you're attacking something period rather than trying to start an interesting discussion based off something like:

"So as we all know a lot of people really like HPatMoR, but for me personally it feels like a prime example of Politics and Awful Art. Does anyone else feel like this? Might there be any interesting patterns in how your attitude towards HPatMoR correlates with other things, like the way you feel about various other fictional works, for instance?"

And started the discussion by sharing some other potentially interesting personal observations.

Why didn't you write that instead? And I don't mean, "what the hell is wrong with you man", I actually do mean, "Why didn't you write that instead?"

Did you just not think of it at the time, and in retrospect you do agree that would have been a cooler way to do it? Or did you have a specific reason for taking the more, uh, 'vitriolic' route in the first place that you would still stand by?

I think this post does not deserve the downvotes it's getting - they appear to be downvotes for simple disagreement. It's a discussion, in the discussion section, of one of the major advertising methods for LessWrong, one which regulars on the site are typically expected to be familiar with.

I like HP:MoR myself. But being an aspiring rationalist does not require liking HP:MoR.

I think you should have left this as a review on FanFiction.net, or in one of the HPMOR threads. By the way, you spelt "Yudkowsky" wrong (easy mistake to make). [Edit: fixed]

What is the point saying "yes" or "no"?

Do as Eliezer suggests in the intro "If you still don't like it after Chapter 10, give up."

As for my own opinion on the work, I'd say it's very very good in some respects, and quite bad in some others.

I don't think an artistic critique of HP:MOR should be a discussion-level post. Critiquing the message (or whether it is good for the cause of promoting rationality) would be fine.

Eliezer addressed it here

If you saw a character talking like that in a published SF novel, you would know that he was an alien or genetically engineered or that the author meant you to know something was funny about him. In fanfiction they assume that it's either the author's conceit or, more probable yet, you're just a terrible author who can't write realistic eleven-year-olds. I thought it was so blatantly lampshaded that nobody could possibly mistake it for an accident, but no, fanfiction readers just don't think like that - they don't look for clues and they do assume lousy authors.

I think you failed to notice that harry is ENTIRELY wrong and massively overreacting in this situation. He's specifically being the opposite of a mary sue in that his big brain is actively backfiring on him.

To an extent, I agree; however, two quasi-defenses:

1: It does actually get less Mary Sue-ish as time goes on; a large part of the purpose of the starting chapters is to establish Harry as a rationalist badass, and once that's been established that element of his character becomes less prominent- see, eg chapters 10, 18, 30-31, the whole Azkaban story arc, and probably a few more.

2: A major purpose of the story is to be awesome/to show a rationalist being awesome. (Also, it's explicitly influenced by another story often accused of Mary Sue-ish ness, Shinji and WH40K.) If it didn't skirt close enough to the edge of Mary Suedom to be perceived as an outright Mary Sue by some, it wouldn't achieve its goals.

So, having thought about it today, I realized that I did overreact. Some of the justifications offered made sense. But I still find McGonnagal's reactions odd. Yes, a kid genius has special needs. But that doesn't mean he should be able to treat others like imbecils. It might've been just shock, but at some point it should have occured to her: I'm letting a prepubescent kid run circles around me. Even if he keeps being right, he's gonna get himself in trouble running his mouth all the time.

I know that she's supposed to be special, that most adults Harry knows DO put him in his place, but I see no reason to think that she is THAT special. She is not used to dealing with such situations (she can't even describe the one she had), and of all the teachers in the books, she's probably the one who values discipline the most.

Also, she never said: "Can you repeat what you just said? And this time, in English?" Sometimes, the situation seemed to call for a Point of View Gun from the Hitchhiker's Guide.

And there is REALLY no excuse for the temper tantrum.

And that's what a Black Hole Sue is: people act strange around her, so she might be happy.

Given its popularity on FF.net, you should be able to empirically state that whatever it is about Mary-Sue-ishness that people dislike he has avoided including. Isn't that really enough? Most of the people reading it are doing so for fun, after all. You might feel differently personally, or perhaps you wandered into a trigger without realizing it, but people are enjoying it.

I don't downvote for anything, so I won't downvote this.

Edit - please disregard this post

Downvoted because "Yudkowski", will upvote if fixed.