Cost, Not Sacrifice
post by Joe Rogero · 2024-11-20T21:32:26.281Z · LW · GW · 13 commentsThis is a link post for https://subatomicarticles.com/cost-not-sacrifice/
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comment by clone of saturn · 2024-11-21T07:27:59.196Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Buying something more valuable with something less valuable should never feel like a terrible deal. If it does, something is wrong.
It's completely normal to feel terrible about being forced to choose only one of two things you value very highly. Human emotions don't map onto utility comparisons in the way you're suggesting.
Replies from: Joe Rogero↑ comment by Joe Rogero · 2024-11-21T20:04:30.135Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
True, it can always hurt. I note, however, that's not quite the same thing as feeling like you made a terrible deal, and also that feeling pain at the loss of a treasured thing is not the same as feeling guilty about the choice.
Replies from: Jozdien↑ comment by Jozdien · 2024-11-21T21:20:04.751Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Many deals in the real world have a lot of positive surplus. Most deals I would like to make have positive surplus. I would still make a deal to get something more valuable with something less valuable, but if the margins are very thin (or approaching zero), then I wouldn't like the deal even as I make it. I can feel like it's a terrible deal because the deals I want would have a lot more surplus to them, ideally involving a less painful cost.
comment by dr_s · 2024-11-21T10:39:53.808Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I think there's one fundamental problem here IMO, which is that not everything is fungible, and thus not everything manages to actually comfortably exist on the same axis of values. Fingers are not fungible. At the current state of technology, once severed, they're gone. In some sense, you could say, that's a limited loss. But for you, as a human being, it may as well be infinite. You just lost something you'll never ever have back. All the trillions and quadrillion dollars in the world wouldn't be enough to buy it back if you regretted your choice. And thus, while in some sense its value must be limited (it's just the fingers of one single human being after all, no? How many of those get lost every day simply because it would have been a bit more expensive to equip the workshop with a circular saw that has a proper safety stop?), in some other sense the value of your fingers to you is infinite, completely beyond money.
Bit of an aside - but I think this is part of what causes such a visceral reaction in some people to the idea of sex reassignment surgery, which then feeds into transphobic rationalizations and ideologies. The concept of genuinely wanting to get rid of a part of your body that you can't possibly get back feels so fundamentally wrong on some level to many people, it pretty much alone for them seals the deal that you must either be insane or having been manipulated by some kind of evil outside force.
Replies from: Joe Rogero, Dumbledore's Army↑ comment by Joe Rogero · 2024-11-21T20:09:29.072Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Lots of things have a value that we might call "infinite" according to this argument. Everything from a human life to reading a book spoiler counts as "something you cannot buy back if you regret it later."
Even if we choose to label some things as "non-fungible", we must often weigh them against each other nevertheless. I claim, not that the choice never hurts, but that there is no need to feel guilty about it.
Replies from: dr_s↑ comment by dr_s · 2024-11-22T17:42:09.868Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Well, yes, it's true, and obviously those things do not necessarily all have genuine infinite value. I think what this really means in practice is not that all non-fungible things have infinite value, but that because they are non-fungible, most judgements involving them are not as easy or straightforward as simple numerical comparisons. Preferences end up being expressed anyway, but just because practical needs force a square peg in a round hole doesn't make it fit any better. I think this in practice manifests in high rates of hesitation or regret for decisions involving such things, and the general difficulty of really squaring decisions like these We can agree in one sense that several trillion dollars in charity are a much greater good than someone not having their fingers cut off, and yet we generally wouldn't call that person "evil" for picking the latter option because we understand perfectly how to someone their own fingers might feel more valuable. If we were talking about fungible goods we'd feel very differently. Replace cutting one's fingers with e.g. demolishing their house.
Replies from: Joe Rogero↑ comment by Joe Rogero · 2024-11-22T19:57:44.685Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I think the whole concept of labeling goods as "fungible" or "non-fungible" is a category error. Everything trades off against something.
Either you value your fingers more than what [some specific amount of money] will buy you or you don't. If you value your fingers more, then keeping them is the right call for you.
↑ comment by Dumbledore's Army · 2024-11-22T18:42:18.396Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I agree with your first paragraph. I think the second is off-topic in a way that encourages readers, and possibly you yourself, to get mind-killed. Couldn’t you use a less controversial topic as an example? (Very nearly any topic is less controversial.) And did you really need to compound the problem by assigning motivations to other people whom you disagree with? That’s a really good way to start a flame war.
Replies from: dr_s↑ comment by dr_s · 2024-11-25T10:46:39.338Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I think it's a very visible example that right now is particularly often brought up. I'm not saying it's all there is to it but I think the fundamental visceral reaction to the very idea of self-mutilation is an important and often overlooked element of why some people would be put off by the concept. I actually think it's something that makes the whole thing a lot more understandable in what it comes from than the generic "well they're just bigoted and evil" stuff people come up with in extremely partisan arguments on the topics. These sort of psychological processes - the fact that we may first have a gut-level reaction, and only later rationalize it by constructing an ideological framework to justify why the things that repulses us are evil - are very well documented, and happen all over the place. Does not mean everyone who disagrees with me does so because of it (nor that everyone who agrees doesn't do it!) but it would be foolish to just pretend this never happens because it sounds a bit offensive to bring up in a debate. The entire concept of rationality is based around the awareness that yeah, we're constantly affected by cognitive biases like these, and separating the wheat from the chaff is hard work.
And by the way it's an excellent example of the reverse too. Just like people who are not dysphoric are put off by mutilation, people who are are put off by the feeling of having something grafted onto their bodies that doesn't belong. Which is sort of the flip side of it. Essentially we tend to have a mental image of our bodies and a strong aversion to that shape being altered or disturbed in some way (which makes all kinds of sense evolutionarily, really). Ironically enough, it's probably via the mechanism of empathy that someone can see someone else do something to their body that feels "wrong" and cringe/be grossed out on their behalf (if you think trans issues are controversial, consider the reactions some people can have even to things like piercings in particularly sensitive places).
comment by df fd (df-fd) · 2024-11-21T01:50:13.713Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I think another problem with the hypothetical is scope insensitive. I mean I read 10 trillions usd and feel no difference from 10 millions usd or less. And it is unclear whether 10 millions is worth 10 of my fingers, while intellectually I think 10 trillions supposed to be worth it. Hence the discomfort.
Replies from: going-durden↑ comment by Going Durden (going-durden) · 2024-11-22T10:24:46.231Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I think money is relatively neat value-holder here, because we can map people, and their options on it.
I don't intuitively know how much money 1 mln USD is, but I know a guy who is a millionaire, and more or less know what he is capable of buying for himself or spending on charity.
I don't intuitively grasp how much 1 billion USD is, but we have examples of billionaires and their actions to guesstimate what that means.
Similarly, I never lost a finger, but can practice using one hand, of just a few fingers of one hand to do everyday tasks, and see how much worse it is. I know several people with 1-2 fingers missing, and they do not seem particularly inconvenienced, some even play guitar! I know a guy with just one hand (which I think is much worse than just missing all fingers on one hand) and he is limited in some things but does fine. So it seems even missing half of your fingers is not that bad if you have a decent middle class career and wealth, and would probably be less of a problem for a millionaire.
Even based on that imprecise financial intuition, I can guess it would not be worth it to sacrifice fingers for 1 mln (because its not that much money in the end), worth it for 10 mln (because it would set you for life), and if Im going for 1 billion I might just go all the way to 10s of trillions.
comment by andrew sauer (andrew-sauer) · 2024-11-25T23:12:39.665Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
No idea whether I'd really sacrifice all 10 of my fingers to improve the world by that much, especially if we add the stipulation that I can't use any of the $10,000,000,000,000 to pay someone to do all of the things I use my fingers for( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°). For me I am quite well divided on it, and it is an example of a pretty clean, crisp distinction between selfish and selfless values. If I kept my fingers, I would feel guilty, because I would be giving up the altruism I value a lot (not just because people tell me to), and the emotion that would result from that loss of value would be guilt, even though I self-consistenly value my fingers more. Conversely, if I did give up my fingers for the $10,000,000,000,000, I would feel terrible for different reasons( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°), even though I valued the altruism more.
Of course, given this decision I would not keep all of my fingers in any case, as long as I could choose which ones to lose. $100,000,000 is well worth the five fingers on my right (nondominant) hand. My life would be better purely selfishly, given that I would never have to work again, and could still write, type, and ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°).