Passing the Recursive Buck

"When was the last time you heard postulated an infinite hierarchy of Gods, none of which create themselves, as the answer to the First Cause?"

Fairly recently, as a matter of fact. Although the LDS church does not officially emphasize this doctrine, I know multiple Mormons that hold that exact view.

It's an easy conclusion to reach if you take either Joseph Smith's statement that "God himself was once as we are now, and is an exalted man, and sits enthroned in yonder heavens!" or Lorenzo Snow's that "As man is, God once was; as God is, man may become" seriously. Conversely, according to my Mormon acquaintances, there will be lots of additional gods in the future.

Anyhow, wonderful post. Sometimes I wonder where you are going with a topic, but then posts like this one make everything come into focus.

If you agree that objective attribution is just an strong hypothesis to explain subjective experience in the first place, then trying to explain consciousness as a subjective experience based on that hypothesis is redicules, it's like trying to explain cause of a cause by it's effect. Now we can call it looking into the bucket of subjective experience and avoiding it, but in the end it's the only existential cause for objective explanation of the bucket at the first place. I agree that loopiness! seems to be a characteristic of such phenomenon if it's looked upon from outside, but does it imply the conclusion that you are making?

"But ultimately, each black box is its own scientific problem. There is no easy, comforting, safe procedure you follow to "look inside". They aren't all as straightforward as free will. My main meta-advice has to do with subtasks like recognizing the black box, not failing in standard ways, not running away screaming into the night, and not stopping on a fake explanation."

Interesting post, and good meta-advice, in my opinion.

Objects are more than just their attributes, they are their actions also. Both are aspects of the whole that is the object. OO programmers recognize this with the concept of a "method" in which an function is part of an object instead of something somewhere else in the program.

Therefore a hand is more than just fingers, palm and thumb. Attribute-wise, that's all it is, but action wise, the hand has a new ability ("grasping") that the component objects don't have. So reductionism is wrong - a thing can be more than the sum of it's parts (since "thing" includes action). And a man made of predictable little atoms does not necessarily have no free will.

So there's need to go recursively back in to the atoms. You go back far enough until you see something that exists. Until you witness yourself making a choice or you don't.

Sorry, that should be "no need." No need because if you keep going back you won't find it, it only exists at the higher level, like the ability to grasp only exists at a higher level.

"So reductionism is wrong - a thing can be more than the sum of it's parts (since "thing" includes action)."

The problem with this statement is that you don't define what you mean by sum. I for one cannot imagine what the term 'fingers + palm + thumb' is supposed to mean. Apparently by sum you don't mean arithmetic sum, but something different. Perhaps by 'sum' you mean something like 'put those ingredients into a beaker, shake it a little and then see what you get'.

And of course, if you defined 'sum', you'll need to define 'more' (and 'less') in this context. Perhaps you'll see that it's about the language and how we use it. We overload many words to mean different things and too often we use the special meaning of a word in a context where it doesn't belong.

"The problem with this statement is that you don't define what you mean by sum."

I mean if you list all the actions that it's parts can do alone, the combined thing can have actions that aren't in that list.

Ian, there's nothing wrong with reductionism.

Overly simplistic reductionism is wrong, e.g., if you divide a computer into individual bits, each of which can be in one of two states, then you can't explain the operation of the computer in just the states of its bits. However, that reduction omitted an important part, the interconnections of the bits--how each affects the others. When you reduce a computer to individual bits and their immediate relationships with other bits, you can indeed explain the whole computer's operation, completely. (It just becomes unwieldy to do so.)

"I mean if you list all the actions that it's parts can do alone, the combined thing can have actions that aren't in that list."

What are these "actions that aren't in that list"? They are still aggregations of interactions that take place at a lower level, but we assign meaning to them. The extra "actions" are in our interpretations of the whole, not in the parts or the whole itself.

"Therefore a hand is more than just fingers, palm and thumb. Attribute-wise, that's all it is, but action wise, the hand has a new ability ("grasping") that the component objects don't have."

But "grasping" is itself composed of actions and abilities already contained in the parts of the hand. Sorting into objects and actions, there's an analogy: the hand is the sum of fingers, palm, and thumb, and grasping is the sum of particular muscles contracting to pull tendons in (each of) the fingers, palm, and thumb. Saying that a new ability ("grasping") arose from the addition is just like saying that a new attribute ("hand-ness") arose as well.

In other words, the algorithm is,

explain_box(box) { if(|box.boxes| > 1) print(boxes) else explain_box(box.boxes[0]) }

which works for most real-world concepts, but gets into an infinite loop if the concept is irreducible.

Rarely is any one thing decisive. Most decisions we make are over-determined, meaning that there are multiple reasons to do or not do most of the actions we choose. What motivates a particular choice is the sum of the weights of the reasons in our mind at the time we choose. Availability bias, confirmation bias, framing, and many other biases affect our choices, which is a good reason for learning about them. Lately, this blog has put more emphasis into agreement and disagreement and the biases affecting that, but the biases affecting your thinking without any interaction with others are at least as important, but can be more easily rooted out given the time and knowledge and effort.

I think that decisions like this are different from individual to individual. I think that different aspects of our personality, our upbringing, and a myriad of other factors make up our decisions. Free will ultimately decide the outcome because we always have a choice to go against our nature. But not everyone can overcome their own nature.

Excellent post - and excellent advice.

I'm fairly new here, and very definitely not an AI 'insider'. But it sems to me that the approach to rationality promulgated here is strongly influenced by experience in thinking about what and how AI might be.

As someone who aspires to rationality, I find much of interest, and much to chew on, as I look around.

This post has crystallised a feeling I was getting that the approach taken here is perhaps fixated on a certain sort of mechanistic rationalism - of the type assumed in many game/economics theoretical approaches.

The example that launches the post is fatally undermined by the philosophically and experientally obvious point (and luckily for me, a point which is increasingly based in the science that comes from using fMRI) that the decision taken was NOT a rational decision. It was largely taken by the unconscious (I prefer pre-conscious, for the same reasons that you dislike the word 'emergent' - unconscious has come to be a mystical term - and that is not what I intend).

Rational behaviour is a mode of behaviour - one of many. The reason that increased rationality among humans is desirable is that it is a mode that is almost never practiced. We are - like it or not - creatures with an only lately evolved capacity for rational thought of any kind. Almost everything that we can be or do, can be achieved without rational thought (if I ever get the nerve to write a post in this forbiddingly precise atmosphere, I may be able to make this seem less tendentious).

Thus the impact of rational thinking has been out of all proportion to its prevalence. Rational behaviour is like the one-eyed man who is king in the nation of the blind. But for the one eyed man to declare that anything not encompassed by sight is irrelevant or dangerous would not be optimal for his subjects.

So I end up thinking, with regard to progress in artificial intelligence (without the slightest expectation of originality), that if research is focussed on 'artificial rationality', then any recognisable 'intelligence' is unlikely to result.

"Of course it is happening inside your head, Harry, but why on earth should that mean that it is not real?" -Albus Dumbledore

Surely there is a more concise more up to date book other than GEB?