Ascetic hedonism

post by dkl9 · 2025-02-17T15:56:30.267Z · LW · GW · 9 comments

This is a link post for https://dkl9.net/essays/ascetic_hedonism.html

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9 comments

In being ascetic, you abandon the usual sources of material pleasure, guided by the benefits of the lifestyle: you use less money and effort on avoidable pleasures, you can better focus your mind on the spiritual and the creative, and you make yourself resilient to potentially losing these pleasures.

In being a hedonist, you proportionally focus your lifestyle around the pursuit of pleasure. Pleasure is appealing — perhaps an outright moral good — by very intuitive appeal.

The types of products you consume and activities in which you partake affect the pleasure you get. I have often taken those things thought of as less pleasurable than the majority's preferences. Sometimes I would opt for things less pleasurable than my personal norms. Such pursuits revealed that Pareto's asymmetry applies: 80% of the pleasure comes from the first 20% of variance along the scale of "quality". People stretch out the high-end differences into 80% of an imagined, discussion-implied scale of pleasurability.

As an efficient-minded hedonist, I get almost as happy with much less effort. Other people struggle to reach the maximum, out of naivete or naturally-different experiences of pleasure, and so see me as an ascetic.

Candy, cookies, and their high-sugar ilk taste delightful, if eaten without guilt. Adults tend to replace them with processed, professionally-designed "snacks", which taste about as good and harm the body about as much. I tend to replace them with, say, a mere baked potato. It tastes less good, but the difference is small. From there to lettuce is a change about as large, i.e. about as small.

This may sound like boasting of a great, disciplined, and/or mind-hacking accomplishment, but the methods I recall were trivial. Just eat some boring, average food. Notice how deliciously foodish it tastes: except where it tastes actively bad, the experienced difference between eating at all and the default overwhelms differences between foods. Get used to that.

Likewise, scrollable feeds of short video — TikTok, Instagram Reels, or whatever has replaced them when you read this — look to have struck an anomalous new level of enjoyment, or so you might conclude from how many people stare at them regularly. Their increase to enjoyment is probably real, but small. They became common out of their addictive properties, orthogonal to happiness. Get your entertainment another way, and you stay almost as happy — typically happier, accounting for the feeds' costs you thus avoid.

For years, I amused myself with longer infotaining videos. Later I found that, as reading is easy, almost as exciting are blogs of mere text, taken for the same role. They're also easier to access, working on a limited phone browser, or in places that need me to listen to what happens beyond my device.

When I finished the switch, videos felt like a superstimulus, and blogs felt more fun than I needed. So I switched again to books, dropping a similarly-small level of pleasure and the need for electricity.

I used to look at internet memes: short, formulaic, visually-appealing jokes. They, too, are an overly-enhanced artifact of modernity. Serving as humour, their milder equivalents — less fun by maybe 15 percentage points — are the quips and surprises of everyday in-person banter. Exposing myself to more of the latter as society recovered from CoViD-19, memes became redundant, even a disgusting excess.

Listening to music makes me happier, as it would for most people. Many people see it as essential. Ignoring it for years made it feel gratuitous when I started again, and I can still tell that the change from silence to music is small enough that "quality" differences between types of music must be tiny. Thus precludes any "favourite" genre, artist, or track, even beyond the usual difficulty of favourites for less emotional domains.

In enabling ascetic hedonism, perhaps stronger than Pareto's asymmetry is hedonic adaptation. After getting used to any one level of pleasurability, a small increase from there saturates your happiness in that domain. Hence the downside of ascetic hedonism: you go blind to nuances in the levels above.

Moderately lowering your standards of fun is a tradeoff, making life cheap, flexible, and mindful, while destroying any complex or strong sense of quality.

9 comments

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comment by AnthonyC · 2025-02-18T02:11:14.751Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I agree with many of the parts of this post. I think xkcd was largely right, our brains have one scale and resize our experiences to fit. I think for a lot of people the hardest step is to just notice what things they actually like, and how much, and in what quantities before they habituate. 

However, the specific substitutions, ascetic choices, etc. are very much going to vary between people, because we have different preferences. You can often get a lot of economic-efficiency-of-pleasure benefit by embracing the places where you prefer things society doesn't, and vice versa. When I look at the places where I have expended time/effort/money on things that provided me little happiness/pleasure/etc., it's usually because they're in some sense status goods, or because I didn't realize I could treat them as optional, or I just hadn't taken the time to actually ask myself what I want.

And I know this isn't the main point, but I would say that while candies and unhealthy snacks are engineered to be as addictive as law and buyers will allow, they're not actually engineered to be maximally tasty. They have intensity of flavor, but generally lack the depth of "real food." It's unfortunate that many of the "healthier" foods that are easily available are less good than this, because it's very feasible to make that baked potato taste better than most store-bought snacks, while still being much healthier. I would estimate that for many of the people don't believe this, it is due to a skill issue - cooking. Sure, sometimes I really want potato chips or french fries. But most of the time, I'd prefer a potato, microwaved, cut in half, and topped with some high-quality butter and a sprinkle of the same seasonings you'd use for the chips and fries.

comment by cousin_it · 2025-02-17T20:46:18.788Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Yeah, I stumbled on this idea a long time ago as well. I never drink sugary drinks, my laptop is permanently in grayscale mode and so on. And it doesn't feel like missing out on fun; on the contrary, it allows me to not miss out. When I "mute" some big, addictive, one-dimensional thing, I start noticing all the smaller things that were being drowned out by it. Like, as you say, noticing the deliciousness of baked potatoes when you're not eating sugar every day, or noticing all the colors in my home and neighborhood when my screen is on grayscale.

comment by Milan W (weibac) · 2025-02-17T22:07:31.710Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I strongly agree with this post, and feel like most people would benefit from directionally applying its advice. Additional examples from my own life:

  • One time, a close friend complained about the expense and effort required to acquire and prepare good coffee, and about the suffering incurred whenever he drank bad coffee. I have since purposefully avoided developing a taste in coffee. I conceive of it as a social facilitator, or as a medium to simultaneously ingest caffeine, water and heat.
  • Back during my teenage years, one day I decided I would drink just water from then on. I have since dropped the fanaticism, and occasionally partake in other beverages. Soda now tastes obscenely strong, if not outright gross. I am healthier and wealthier than the counterfactual, since water is healthier and cheaper than all alternatives.
Replies from: weibac
comment by Milan W (weibac) · 2025-02-17T22:24:45.787Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Upon reflection, I think I want to go further in this direction, and I have not done so due to akratic / trivial inconveniences reasons. Here is a list of examples:

  • I used to take only cold showers, unless I needed to wash my hair. May be a good idea to restart that.
  • I've wanted to center my workflow around CLI / TUI programs (as opposed to GUI) programs for a while now. It is currently in a somewhat awkward hybrid state.
  • I used to use Anki and enjoy it. I dropped it during a crisis period in my life. The crisis has abated. It is imperative that I return.
Replies from: meedstrom
comment by meedstrom · 2025-02-20T14:32:14.727Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It is currently in a somewhat awkward hybrid state.

And you may see it that way for the rest of your life. Using CLI is like having a taste in coffee, there's always new frontiers. I'd advise embracing the "hybrid state" you've got at any given time as Your System, rather than always be enduring an awkward state of transition.

comment by Said Achmiz (SaidAchmiz) · 2025-02-18T07:48:35.286Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Candy, cookies, and their high-sugar ilk taste delightful, if eaten without guilt. Adults tend to replace them with processed, professionally-designed “snacks”, which taste about as good and harm the body about as much. I tend to replace them with, say, a mere baked potato. It tastes less good, but the difference is small. From there to lettuce is a change about as large, i.e. about as small.

Are you claiming that there’s not much difference, in experiential terms, between a cookie and lettuce? If so, then (a) you’re very obviously wrong, and (b) given that you claim this, I don’t believe anything you say about food.

If this is not what you’re claiming, then please clarify.

(Cookies and baked potatoes are, of course, both great; but it is foolishness to try to rank them, on some sort of unidimensional scale. That’s not how enjoyment of food works! For one thing, there are multiple dimensions of experiential variation; for another thing, the experienced “deliciousness”, and enjoyment along various dimensions, of any given food item, is not fixed, but varies dynamically, in response to a number of factors—including what other foods you’ve been eating.)

P.S.: The “radical cure for sugar enjoyment” described in your linked post (taking emetic drugs when you consume sugar) is a really bad idea.

Replies from: meedstrom
comment by meedstrom · 2025-02-20T14:41:04.617Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

P.S.: The “radical cure for sugar enjoyment” described in your linked post (taking emetic drugs when you consume sugar) is a really bad idea.

Not disagreeing, but what's your reason? Loss of gut flora?

Replies from: SaidAchmiz
comment by Said Achmiz (SaidAchmiz) · 2025-02-20T20:37:39.716Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Many reasons, including that vomiting repeatedly is bad for your esophagus.

Replies from: meedstrom
comment by meedstrom · 2025-02-21T11:02:28.466Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

True, if you were gonna vomit repeatedly. I suspect the association might be forged after only one or two times. Maybe it fades after one week, so you do it again, then it fades after one month, then a year... like it's an Anki card.