Comment by ztzuliios on On the Proposed California SB 1047 · 2024-02-13T16:53:11.519Z · LW · GW

California is not capable of extracting tax revenue from companies like Google in any meaningful way, so we shouldn't expect them to be capable of taking stronger, less directly self-benefiting action. If they can't get Google to pay them, they can't get Google to stop AI. 

What is California's great track record in this space? They have caused "May cause cancer in California" to be printed many times. We shouldn't expect them to save us.

Comment by ztzuliios on EA Vegan Advocacy is not truthseeking, and it’s everyone’s problem · 2023-10-02T20:36:18.103Z · LW · GW

In general, committing to any stance as a personal constant (making it a "part of your identity") is antithetical to truthseeking. It certainly imposes a constraint on truthseeking that makes the problem harder. 

But, if you share that stance with someone else, you won't tend to see it. You'll just see the correctness of your own stance. Being able to correctly reason around this is a hard-mode problem. 

While you can speak about specific spectra of stances (vegan-carnist, and others), in reality, there are multiple spectra in play at any given time (the one I see the most is liberal-radical but there are also others). This leads to truthseeking constraints or in a word biases in cross-cutting ways. This seems to play out in the interplay of all the different people committing all the different sins called out in the OP. I think this is not unique to veganism at all and in fact plays out in virtually all similar spaces and contests. You always have to average out the ideological bias from a community. 

There is no such thing as an epistemic environment that has not declared war on you. There can be no peace. This is hard mode and I consider the OP here to be another restatement of the generally accepted principle that this kind of discussion is hard mode / mindkilling.

This is why I'm highly skeptical of claims like the comment-grandparent. Everyone is lying, and it doesn't matter much whether the lying is intentional or implicit. There is no such thing as a political ideology that is fully truth-seeking. That is a contradiction in terms. There is also no such thing as a fully neutral political ideology or political/ethical stance; everyone has a point of view. I'm not sure whether the vegans are in fact worse than the carnists on this. One side certainly has a significant amount of status-quo bias behind it. The same can be said about many other things. 

Just to be explicitly, my point of view as it relates to these issues is vegan/radical, I became vegan roughly at the same time I became aware of rationalism but for other reasons, and when I went vegan the requirement for b12 supplementation was commonly discussed (outside the rationalist community, which was not very widely vegan at the time) mostly because "you get it from supplements that get it from dirt" was the stock counterargument to "but no b12 when vegan."

Comment by ztzuliios on Sexual Abuse attitudes might be infohazardous · 2023-09-25T16:49:06.525Z · LW · GW

I think the critical difference is that while marital rape might not be a legal crime, and might not be seen as wrong by people who aren't subjected to it, it's obviously wrong for the person suffering it, and obviously identifiable as coercive and abusive even to the perpetrator. 

The spectrum then becomes (recognized as wrong x feels wrong) -> (not recognized as wrong -> feels wrong) -> (recognized as wrong x doesn't feel wrong) -> (not recognized as wrong x doesn't feel wrong). 

I think people are only talking about quadrant 3 when saying "sexual abuse attitudes could be [bad]." And that is, like you point out, something that people experience differently, and depends on the specifics of the case rather than the category. It's a near certainty that some of the cases described in this comment are in fact nonconsensual and traumatic, for example. But if someone who did not experience trauma from that practice emigrated to the West and was told over and over again that something deeply traumatic happened to them, this seems like an instance where the problem could be "created out of thin air" as you put it. 

Overall, though, the question is whether quadrant 2 or quadrant 3 is bigger, and I think it's very likely that quadrant 3, while existent, is not as large as quadrant 2. Thanks for pointing this out.

Comment by ztzuliios on The Kids are Not Okay · 2023-03-13T03:39:25.439Z · LW · GW

The firearm use is a weird thing to point out. The usual explanation I see here is that social programming directed towards women drives them to value appearance more highly and use methods that are not as disfiguring, which means no firearms, but also no trains, bridges, high buildings, and so on.

Comment by ztzuliios on The Kids are Not Okay · 2023-03-13T03:32:38.908Z · LW · GW

Control is not a constant, and ability to effectively control depends on the social context. The state itself has acted as a counterweight to parental control for hundreds of years, and capital also acts as a counterweight -- if you don't want to live the way your parents want you to live or marry who they want you to marry, you can run away to the city and live free, which is easier if there are strong laws preventing you from being hunted down and honor-killed and jobs waiting for you in the urban center. Control was arguably at all-time lows in the late 60s and 70s. But the 80s are a period of reaction against these excesses, and safetyism can be argued to have started in the 80s. The first law mandating car seats is passed in 1979 and the first law mandating seat belts in 1984. More tellingly, the satanic ritual abuse panic kicks off hard in 1983 with the McMartin trial and the next year satanic ritual abuse panic advocates testify before Congress. Stranger danger spreads as a meme, reducing the ability of young people to travel freely via hitchhiking, even though the actual risk remains low.

The Internet disrupts this control process by creating a new space where young people are more able to navigate than parents. I'd argue this is the cause of the decline through the 90s: increased freedom from the nascent Internet. Gradually, this is curtailed as BBSs become forums, and forums become social media. At the same time, censorship is productized and sold to parents, and as early as 2008 schools were having extracurricular brainwashing sessions designed to scare children away from using the Internet as a vehicle of expression because "what's on the Internet is forever." I do not understand how parental and state oversight could be said to be minimal on social media. Schools install spyware on their own devices and recommend parents do the same. "Parental control features" are ubiquitous and you can't crack your mom's password with a l0phtcrack CD because Windows Vista didn't use NTLM hashes. The endpoints are controlled. You live in a panopticon. Even Kindles have parental controls, but paper books don't.

2011 is arguably the death rattle of free speech on the Internet. Wikileaks goes from being the place where you download the Scientology PDFs to being a terrorist group in the eyes of the US government and I think promotes a lot more walling-off of the gardens of the Internet. Reddit shuts down several subreddits in 2011, going from being a free speech social media website to what it is now. SOPA is introduced in October. If the Internet gave young people hope in the 90s, 2011 is the year that hope started dying, amidst the Arab Spring, the Eurozone collapse, and the Occupy movement. The high school first years in the fall of 2011 would graduate the spring of 2016, just in time to see Trump elected. 

And finally, conservatives live in the country. The country is inherently less conducive to control than the city. Insurgents hide in the countryside. People go to parties in the fields. You can light huge bonfires and get drunk next to them and nobody will see or hear you. People in cities have to have better coordinating to create spaces like this, which is limited by a censored and surveilled Internet. Conservativism as an ideology is less conducive to paternalistic control. But I think the urban/rural divide is the main driver here.

We have been going through a societal cycle of increasing control since the 80s that was disrupted by the computer and the Internet, but since 2011, smartphones, and social media, the Internet has become another vehicle of control, rather than the liberatory technology it once was that made life literally worth living for so many young people. To me, this explains all of the holes much more parsimoniously than "Socrates was wrong about books, but I'm right about network television tiktok." The falsification for this is if there are any similar studies showing that abstaining from forums or BBS's or other pre-social-media Internet coordination systems improves mental health. I don't expect to see that. I remember the free Internet. 

Comment by ztzuliios on Fighting without hope · 2023-03-04T01:00:01.325Z · LW · GW

You're quite welcome.

Comment by ztzuliios on Fighting without hope · 2023-03-02T21:55:02.871Z · LW · GW

I honestly have no idea. It might be in Expect Resistance somewhere, which if not directly about this topic, is generally about it. 

I may have been (edit: was probably) thinking about The Promise of Defeat, by Moxie Marlinspike, anarchist cyrptographer sailor extraordinaire and the author of the Signal protocol (and the original Signal app, though he's no longer with the project).

Comment by ztzuliios on Beginning to feel like a conspiracy theorist · 2023-03-02T21:25:31.189Z · LW · GW

Imagine what it was like for those of us who were talking about transhumanism, AI alignment, morphological freedom, cryonics, nootropics, keto diets, kettlebells, etc., in 2010, not 2023. 

Welcome to the bleeding edge. It's not an easy life. 

The most important thing to do is to learn to trust your research and the truth over what the tribe says. This can be very hard. I eventually sold most of my bitcoin after all my friends and family spent the summer of 2012 or so screaming at me that it was a bubble, a scam, etc., which seemed confirmed when the price crashed from $35 down to $5 -- don't make that mistake. 

Learn to isolate yourself from people that are reliably harmful. Don't be a crab in the bucket. Get out of the bucket. Deal with helping out the people you care about later.

Comment by ztzuliios on Fighting without hope · 2023-03-02T07:19:24.906Z · LW · GW

Read anarchists. Anarchists have had no hope since 1936 and still have never stopped fighting. I'm pretty sure there's a CrimethInc. essay on exactly this topic.

Comment by ztzuliios on Here's the exit. · 2022-12-03T21:30:15.607Z · LW · GW

I'm not saying it's bad to do these things.

I'm saying that if you're doing them as a distraction from inner pain, you're basically drunk.

How is this falsifiable?

Can you point to five people who have done this, but still have a different orientation from you?

Comment by ztzuliios on Here's the exit. · 2022-12-02T17:57:04.630Z · LW · GW

The problem isn't that access to emotion is ableist. I think that suggestion is itself ableist, neurodiverse people have complete access to their emotions, their emotional reactions to certain things might simply be different. 

The problem is that no matter what you do, if you come to a conclusion different from OP, you are simply still "disembodied." You just need to "do more work." This is a way of counting the hits and excusing the misses. "Embodiment" is not "being in touch with your emotions," it is acting in the manner prescribed. 

What is ableist is saying that there is a single state, "embodiment," which coincidentally overlaps entirely with several other things prescribed, and if you are not in that state, there is a psychological problem with you. This is neurotypical supremacy. 

As I said in the other post in this thread to which you replied, there are other ways to deal with this. You do not have to do breathwork. You do not have to meditate. You do not have to "listen to your body." These are ideological prescriptions. They poorly emulate cognitive-behavioral therapy, which is a much more effective way to process emotions and resolve maladaptive behavior patterns.

This is why the comment parent and myself think that this post is manipulative. It presents a real problem, but frames it in terms such that the only possible solution is the wholesale adoption of the author's ideology. The honest post on this topic would have mentioned other solutions, which maybe the author did not personally experience but understands, through systematizing and integrating their own experiences and the experiences of others, to be also solutions to the same problem. 

Comment by ztzuliios on Here's the exit. · 2022-12-02T15:59:30.671Z · LW · GW

Lots of ink, but lots to think about. I'm thankful for this post fwiw.

The "no technical meaning" could maybe be an indicator of sarcasm. But you're right that there was no way for you to know I wasn't just misapplying the term in the same way as the OP.

I don't think this relates to group polarization per se but I take your point.

I didn't mean "triggered" to mean extremely so, someone can be mildly triggered and again, I apologize for (in my perception, based on your comment) doing that. I think you did the right thing.

Comment by ztzuliios on Here's the exit. · 2022-11-30T19:34:28.544Z · LW · GW

It does strike me as a rather fully general counterargument, written in a deliberately obfuscatory/"woo" style.  The focus on "listening to your body" seems like an obfuscation, it's an appeal to something deliberately put beyond measurement.  This does seem like it could apply to anything anyone cares about (you're a Red Sox fan? You're addicted to the suffering, your body is telling you to stop, land on Earth and get sober!).  If you have any reasons to disagree, that's coming from a place of addiction and you need to stop caring and presumably follow a similar life-path to OP because that is the only thing that works, everything else is a death-cult. 

I don't buy it, to say the least, and I think it's only the social connections that people have to the OP that make anyone treat it charitably.  People have been saying this since the earliest days of the discussion of this topic on the Internet; this fully general counterargument predates Eliezer Yudkowsky being appropriately pessimistic about AI.

I also think that the characterization that all rationalism comes from "disembodiment" is essentially an ableist slur.  Using ableist slurs and appealing to the hierarchy of ableism is always manipulative and is never appropriate.  Unfortunately as people have come to the rationalist community more with the intention of using it as a springboard for their own careers, we've had to deal with more and more overt and covert ableism as a rather underhanded way of putting a thumb on the scales.  If we're to truly abandon the supremacy of the neurotypical, and truly embrace neurodiversity, we also have to embrace a diversity of "embodiment" (to the extent that is a valid and real concept, which I doubt), which the OP thoroughly does not.

Comment by ztzuliios on Here's the exit. · 2022-11-30T19:31:14.125Z · LW · GW

I completely agree and I think that levying the charges "disembodied" against anything on the opposite side of the mental dichotomy of "woo" is a weasel-word for the ableist slur of "autistic." I'm sorry this wasn't more clear, but I thought that sentence was fairly dripping as is.  I've written about this before as it applies to this topic, which is not to excuse the harm I've done if I've triggered you, but to show that I've precommitted to this stance on this issue.

Comment by ztzuliios on Here's the exit. · 2022-11-30T17:05:34.785Z · LW · GW

It was always a Cthulhu LARP.  Remember that one thing?

Groups polarize over time. One of the ways to signal group membership is to react explosively to the things you're supposed to react explosively to. This is why as politics in the US have polarized, everyone has grown more breathless and everything is ${OUTGROUP}ist.  You gain ${KARMA} by being more breathless and emotional.  You can only stop this with explicit effort, but if you do that, you look dissociated, disembodied, autistic, and the social pressure against that is stronger than the social pressure against letting (totally normal, status-quo) group polarization get to the point of literally mindkilling people. 

The military also has techniques to avoid this, but there are similar social pressures against them from both sides of the equation, because the military is low-status both to the postrationalist types (like OP) and to actual rationalists (like the people setting social norms at CFAR). So you don't see those being used. 

It's completely possible to have the alignment research you want, you'll just have to set the group norms, which is a completely orthogonal problem that involves a lot of things besides alignment research. Personally I think this would be a very good thing to do and I encourage you to try for the experience of it if nothing else.

Comment by ztzuliios on Calibration of a thousand predictions · 2022-10-13T21:03:01.334Z · LW · GW

I don’t know what’s up with the 80% category

Interestingly I've had the same issue, though I'm also not as well calibrated at the lower levels as you are, I also have a noticable calibration dip at around 80%.

Comment by ztzuliios on EA, Veganism and Negative Animal Utilitarianism · 2022-09-08T00:28:06.218Z · LW · GW

Wolves don't seem to have any capability to morally introspect. Do you agree with this?

If you do, it seems silly to expect them to behave morally. Humans, on the other hand, can behave morally, at least on average. 

There is no such thing as "well-treated livestock." If you think this is incorrect, devise a livestock method behind the veil of ignorance and share it here. But generally murder is not well-treatment. Rape is not well-treatment. If you were a farmed animal, you would have been murdered at the age of seven, extrapolating from the average age of farmed animal murder as a percentage of lifespan. Do you think it is okay to murder a seven-year-old assuming it is painless? If you were murdered at seven, would you consider it a life well-lived? Would you prefer to be slaughtered "painlessly" at age seven, or perhaps live longer and be killed by wolves?

Not to be inflammatory, but I don't believe that the reasons for your abandoning veganism actually were these. It is far too convenient. You probably just wanted to taste meat again. If you have some health excuse, I recommend blending your meat into a tasteless, drinkable slurry to avoid these arguments -- and if you really did abandon veganism simply because you're hopeless about the wild animal's suffering, you should be happy to do this! If it isn't about your ability to eat meat, that is. If it is, you should be honest and say you abandoned veganism because you enjoy the taste of blood in your mouth.

Are you a wolf? Come on

Comment by ztzuliios on EA, Veganism and Negative Animal Utilitarianism · 2022-09-08T00:21:33.608Z · LW · GW

You're ignoring an important aspect. Humans directly cause the suffering of farmed animals. It could be more important to eliminate the rape and murder humans directly inflict on farmed animals prior to optimizing the wild ecosystem. For example, there could be other negative utility from social technologies/institutions around industrialized animal rape and murder. I see the Holocaust as one such example of what those who rape and murder nonhumans will eventually (and inevitably) do to humans.

Comment by ztzuliios on How do I use caffeine optimally? · 2022-06-24T22:36:45.742Z · LW · GW

This is my personal experience. I maintained this schedule all throughout grad school. Eventually, though, I just got a prescription for Adderall and that worked much better.

Caffeine has a steep tolerance curve, and you will rapidly experience diminishing returns if you exclusively use caffeine. This means you are using caffeine to address your caffeine dependency and get you to baseline, rather than to push yourself above baseline. For this reason, you must cycle caffeine with other stimulants (or tolerance breaks) for it to remain effective. You also must have accurate dosage tracking in order to understand the long-term effects. You should also, in my opinion, match caffeine with a 1:2 ratio of caffeine to l-theanine (this is the inverse of the green tea ratio, which has 2:1 caffeine:l-theanine). All of this means coffee is an inadequate source of caffeine. Do not get your caffeine from coffee. Take caffeine pills, starting with a low dose like 25mg caffeine/50mg l-theanine. Track your dosage and dose times in a spreadsheet and also try to rate how effective it was; this self-report is not objective but is better than nothing in the long run. The smallest Starbucks coffee is about 125mg caffeine; on hard days when I was struggling to meet a deadline I might take 200mg (with 400mg l-theanine) twice in a day. While high doses of caffeine paired with 2x l-theanine is the closest you can legally get to adderall, I don't really recommend it outside of making desperate efforts.

The best secondary stimulant I ever found was nicotine. As a non-smoker and non-secondhand smoker with a negligible nicotine tolerance, I needed about 1-2mg sublingually to match the effect of 100mg caffeine. Nicotine has a shorter effect than caffeine and you'll need to redose multiple times in a day for the same effect. It also has a steep curve, and I usually found myself taking up to 5mg by the end of my nicotine weeks. I tried many forms of nicotine, but the most reliably effective with the least side effects was sublingual liquid nicotine at a 1mg/ml concentration. Patches were the worst, gum never really worked, lozenges worked but are kind of high risk high reward.

My schedule was to spend one week on caffeine, one week on nicotine, and one week on adrafinil. Adrafinil never really worked right and eventually I would use this week as a break week. I think it would also have worked fine if I did just caffeine/nicotine, but I never tried that extensively. 

Comment by ztzuliios on Should I buy roofies from the darknet? · 2022-04-26T20:45:49.458Z · LW · GW

There are really no drugs that work the way you describe. Rohypnol or any other benzo will just knock you out, GHB gets you high, etc.. 

As long as you get the dosage right, there is very little risk in consuming drugs. You can also order testing kits that will verify that the substance you expect is in the mixture you've ordered. However, the economics of online drug marketplaces strongly disincentivize and harshly punish anyone "stomping" on the product, so they tend to be very safe.

It is also safe to order from them. In the best case, your drugs are shipped, the dealer deletes all information that could link you to them, and you're done. In the absolute worst case, the whole market is a honeytrap, but as far as I'm aware this has never happened, even though several LEAs have seized working markets that they could have used for this. In the average worst case, the dealer does not delete your information, but it's extremely unlikely that they could use this for any bargaining, and it's extremely unlikely that you would get any attention from it.

This assumes you're in the US, where you have a constitutional right to be secure against the search and seizure of your packages without a warrant signed by a judge. YMMV if you are in a less free country like the UK or Australia, but you will probably still be fine. Generally, the demand-side of the drug industry is not prosecuted, unless there's some other aggravating factor like getting into a car accident or beating someone up.

Comment by ztzuliios on Russia has Invaded Ukraine · 2022-03-01T15:02:09.379Z · LW · GW

There are depressingly many Washington think tanks who produce whitepapers on "winnable" nuclear exchanges with Russia and China. It does indeed depend on what you mean by surviving. That doesn't mean it's impossible.

The problem is not what the enemy will do, it's what the enemy can do. 

Comment by ztzuliios on Russia has Invaded Ukraine · 2022-02-25T17:50:27.967Z · LW · GW

Why? He has nukes. The end. No one is ever invading Russia. It is just impossible. NATO is not going to invade Russia. 

Russia has nukes with aging delivery mechanisms that are outpaced more and more each year.  If NATO missile defense can change the calculus such that retaliation from a first strike seems survivable, MAD is gone and Russia is vulnerable.  If NATO cyber capabilities could Stuxnet the Russian arsenal, MAD is gone and Russia is vulnerable. 

It isn't as simple as "He has nukes, the end." 

Comment by ztzuliios on Russia has Invaded Ukraine · 2022-02-25T15:43:59.399Z · LW · GW

He has said that he will keep on trying to recreate the Russian empire, which now includes several NATO states.


Where has he said this? How directly? 

Comment by ztzuliios on Russia has Invaded Ukraine · 2022-02-24T22:22:19.522Z · LW · GW

Well, then it's reasonable to assume that Putin's desired end state is not complete annexation of Ukraine. However, even if Ukraine is an Austria/Finland-type neutral party, outside the Russian bloc but also outside of the American bloc, Putin's security goals are achieved. The minimum criteria for Putin's ideological goals being achieved seems like internal autonomy for Donetsk and Lugansk, the maximum would be the annexation of those areas to Russia in the style of Crimea. So annexation is unnecessary ideologically and strategically, and seems unlikely as a goal. 

Comment by ztzuliios on Twitter thread on postrationalists · 2022-02-24T22:12:03.711Z · LW · GW

What is the appropriate way to relate to emotions? How could the sequences have avoided disembodiment? The person who originally used that term seems to think that anything like the sequences would be similarly "disembodied," which makes me think that this issue is less about the inappropriate way the sequences relate to emotion, and more about the hubris of attempting to self-improve in ways other than those described in The Tao of Fully Feeling.

Comment by ztzuliios on Twitter thread on postrationalists · 2022-02-24T22:01:01.259Z · LW · GW

I'm already familiar, at least at that level, with dissociation, derealization, and depersonalization. That said, the claim made in the OP, and in the article Kaj Sota links echoing the same viewpoint, seems to be less that there are emotions dealt with in unhealthy ways within the sequences, and more that there are no emotions at all in the sequences, that rationalism is a project to replace all intuitive/automatic/uncontrolled processing with explicit/intentional/controlled processing.

Personally I think the construct actually being discussed seems more like avoidance than "embodiment" or dissociation. Clinically, dissociation tends to be very severe; when clinicians talk about PTSD survivors feeling "disembodied," they're referring to tactile hallucinations representing a noticeable disruption of one or more senses. I think your post is similarly a much more expansive reading of the clinical definitions, though IANApsychiatrist. 

Comment by ztzuliios on Russia has Invaded Ukraine · 2022-02-24T19:45:07.942Z · LW · GW

I've been trying to think of this too. It seemed like Putin already had everything he could have wanted with a frozen conflict in Ukraine, preventing it from joining NATO. This is what I've come up with:

  • Ukraine might have still been able to join the EU, which would mean an attack on Ukraine would activate the EU defensive alliance, which would in turn activate NATO. I'm not sure how realistic this was.
  • Ukraine might have been admitted to NATO anyway, with the ongoing conflict. This seems unlikely.
  • Ukraine might have been able to defeat the Russian army in a conventional war over just the DPR/LPR, likely in a blitz that would leave it without the breakaway republics. If Ukraine accepts the loss of Crimea, this would allow it to join NATO. Picture the Armenian-Azerbaijani war, but between Ukraine and Russia, with Ukraine using Western technology and drones. I find this somewhat more plausible, but it's not clear why Putin couldn't have simply recognized the DPR and LPR and stationed Russian soldiers there as a "tripwire" similar to NATO in the Baltics. 

I think the overarching reason is exactly what Putin says it is: having Ukraine join NATO is unacceptable for both the Russian national image and for Russian national security. Putin's issue in Ukraine has always been EU/NATO membership and the departure of Ukraine from the Russian sphere. 

Comment by ztzuliios on Twitter thread on postrationalists · 2022-02-20T17:32:41.464Z · LW · GW

So if the sequences are unemotional, they're disembodied, but if they are emotional, they're also disembodied?

Edit: In hindsight I'm conflating the article Kaj Sota links and the OP's tweets about the sequences keeping emotion "at an arm's length." I don't really agree that the sequences keep emotions at an arm's length, but sure, if this is not the same thing as being "disembodied," they might still be emotional and disembodied.

That said, what is the test that tells us something is not disembodied? Is any attempt to improve one's life through reason on its own evidence for disembodiment? What does the alternate-universe "embodied" version of the sequences look like? 

Comment by ztzuliios on Twitter thread on postrationalists · 2022-02-17T23:32:19.694Z · LW · GW

I think the problem is less in the "vibes" and more in the kind of person that is attracted to rationalism for rationalism's sake.  Ironically, this is also something discussed in the sequences. I once introduced the sequences to the anarchists I did activism with in college, and while some of them rejected most of it out of hand because it seemed politically unorthodox, some found real value in it and were able to use it to improve their lives or work in various ways. I've met many people since who were not "rationalists" or part of the "rationalist community" but certainly also did the same thing.  

Maybe I am just too traumatized and autistic, but I find it hard to read the sequences without seeing a very hard, emotional overtone.  The tone of the early sequences seems almost desperate.  It seems hard to read "if the hot iron approaches your face, it is rational to feel fear" as something disembodied.  It seems impossible to read "shut up and multiply!" as something unemotional.  But "disembodied" has become a very trendy accusation in the last few years, and I'm not surprised to see it standing in as the more obviously ableist slur "autistic."

Comment by ztzuliios on Risk and Safety in the age of COVID · 2022-01-22T21:58:39.805Z · LW · GW

I think you're on-target both about covid and in general, about risk analysis vs. a safety heuristic. There are even degrees of this; even a motorcyclist who drove safely and practiced all reasonable safety precautions would be heckled by someone if they were to crash through no fault of their own, die, and leave behind their family behind. "What did they think would happen?" You could even say that the common victim-blaming tropes are reinforcing a norm that puts safety permanently out of reach, so that they are always "morally blameworthy" or in other words, responsible, for what's happened. 

I think the "qualitative difference" you're describing is just the safety/risk dichotomy. Risk is irrelevant to safety, and safety is not a way of comparing risks.

Comment by ztzuliios on Covid 12/16: On Your Marks · 2021-12-22T21:38:17.040Z · LW · GW

This is the relevant data; what conclusions do you draw from that?

Comment by ztzuliios on Covid 12/2: But Aside From That · 2021-12-03T21:23:28.410Z · LW · GW

Maybe Zvi thinks people think:

>In addition, any mention of them, or any encouragement, would lead people to be less eager to get vaccinated or take other preventative measures, and we can’t have that.

This is very similar to the Faucian notion of saying whatever, true or untrue, leads the public to take the actions he wants them to take, as was the case with masks, and we could find out is the case with something else in the future; we can't know when we're being lied to in order for the greater good to be served.

But personally, I think you can explain such an outlook entirely by association with earlier treatments. Treatments have generally been well-received by one of the major American political tribes, while vaccines have been not well received. It's natural for the opposing tribe to invert this, and it seems like they have, to the point where vaccines are the only acceptable solution and treatments are evil. 

This situation reminds me of the very beginning of the pandemic, when de Blasio was tweeting "New York is still open, go out" and Twitter was screaming for a lockdown. The silence about Paxlovid is rather deafening in comparison.