Ideological Bayesians

post by Kevin Dorst · 2024-02-25T14:17:25.070Z · LW · GW · 4 comments

This is a link post for https://kevindorst.substack.com/p/ideological-bayesians

Contents

  Limited-Attention Bayesians
  Ideological Bayesians
  What happens?
  What to make of this?
      Why does this matter?
    What next?
None
4 comments

TLDR: It’s often said that Bayesian updating is unbiased and converges to the truth—and, therefore, that biases must emerge from non-Bayesian sources. That's not quite right. The convergence results require updating on your total evidence—but for agents at all like us, that's impossible—instead, we must selectively attend to certain questions, ignoring others. Yet correlations between what we see and what questions we ask—“ideological” Bayesian updating—can lead to predictable biases and polarization.

Professor Polder is a polarizing figure.

His fans praise him for his insight; his critics denounce him for his aggression.

Ask his fans, and they’ll supply you with a bunch of instances when he made an insightful comment during discussions. They’ll admit that he’s sometimes aggressive, but they can’t remember too many cases—he certainly doesn’t seem any more aggressive than the average professor.

Ask his critics, and they’ll supply you with a bunch of instances when he made an aggressive comment during discussions. They’ll admit that he’s sometimes insightful, but they can’t remember too many cases—he certainly doesn’t seem any more insightful than the average professor.

This sort of polarization is, I assume, familiar.

But let me tell you a secret: Professor Polder is, in fact, perfectly average—he has an unremarkably average number of both insightful and aggressive comments.

So what’s going on?

His fans are better at noticing his insights, while his critics are better at noticing his aggression. As a result, their estimates are off: his fans think he’s more insightful than he is, and his critics think he’s more aggressive than he is. Each are correct about individual bits of the picture—when they notice aggression or insight, he is being aggressive or insightful. But none are correct about the overall picture.

This source of polarization is also, I assume, familiar. It’s widely appreciated that background beliefs and ideology—habits of mind, patterns of salience, and default forms of explanation—can lead to bias, disagreement, and polarization. In this broad sense of “ideology”, we’re familiar with the observation that real people—especially fans and critics—are often ideological.[1]

But let me tell you another secret: Polder’s fans and critics are all Bayesians. More carefully: they all maintain precise probability distributions over the relevant possibilities, and they always update their opinions by conditioning their priors on the (unambiguous) true answer to a partitional question.

How is that possible? Don’t Bayesians, in such contexts, update in unbiased[2] ways, always converge to the truth, and therefore avoid persistent disagreement?

Not necessarily. The trick is that which question they update on is correlated with what they see—they have different patterns of salience. For example, when Polder makes a comment that is both insightful and aggressive, his fans are more likely to notice (just) the insight, while his critics are more likely to notice (just) the aggression. This can lead to predictable polarization.

I’m going to give a model of how such correlations—between what you see, and what questions you ask about it—can lead otherwise rational Bayesians to diverge from both each other and the truth. Though simplified, I think it sheds light on how ideology might work.

Limited-Attention Bayesians

Standard Bayesian epistemology says you must update on your total evidence.

That’s nuts. To see just how infeasible that is, take a look at the following video. Consider the question: what happens to the exercise ball?

I assume you noticed that the exercise ball disappeared. Did you also notice that the Christmas tree gained lights, the bowl changed colors, the blanket became a sweatshirt, and about a dozen other things changed too? I doubt it.

In some sense, of course, the entire visual scene was part of your evidence—for any particular question about it (“Is there an exercise ball? Christmas tree? Bowl?”), you could answer that question. But—even in a static visual scene—there are far too many such questions to answer them all. Only a small fraction of the answers can be explicitly noticed and encoded in memory.

This is an instance of the epistemological point that we need to classify our experiences: we need concepts and habits of mind to make sense of the “blooming, buzzing confusion” that constantly confronts our senses.

Let’s put this into a simple model.

Bayesians usually say that evidence comes in as the true cell of a partition—a set of mutually exclusive, collectively exhaustive ways the world could be. Intuitively, we can often think of this as the complete answer to a question. For example: “How did the coin land?” has the answer-set {Heads, Tails}. For another: “How much charge does your phone have?” has the answer-set {100%, 99%, …, 1%, 0%}.

Bayesians then model the incorporation of evidence as follows. First, you begin with a probability distribution over all relevant possibilities. Then the true answer to the question comes in—Heads or Tails, as the case may be—and in each relevant possibility you update by conditioning on that true answer. What the true answer is depends on what possibility you’re in, of course—if the coin lands heads, you condition on Heads; if the coin lands tails, you condition on Tails.

Though often overlooked, models like this imply that your always going to answer the same question. It’s as if you’ve specified exactly what you’re going to pay attention beforehand—how the coin landed, in this case—and then only ever pay attention to that.

The above video shows how unrealistic this is. We can’t possibly specify exactly the question we’re going to pay attention to beforehand—there are too many things we might see, and too many questions we might ask about it. Instead, we have to reconstruct a (set of) question(s) to answer about our experience after we have the experience.

For example, I’m guessing you didn’t think beforehand “There might or might not be a Christmas tree, and I’m going to figure that out”. But of course, as soon as you saw the scene, you formulated the question and answered it in the affirmative.

Yet there were plenty more questions that you could have formulated but didn’t. For example, once you’d seen the Christmas tree you could’ve asked “Will the decorations on it change?”. If you had, you would’ve noticed that they did change—but you didn’t; instead you were only disposed to formulate that question if you spotted something odd about the Christmas tree.

Upshot: Unlike normal Bayesian models, limited agents need to formulate the questions to answer about their evidence post hoc, after it comes in. That opens up the possibility that which questions they answer might be correlated with what they see. What happens if they are?

Ideological Bayesians

Turn to Professor Polder.

To keep the model tractable, suppose there are just two possible questions you could ask about each comment he makes:

So there are four possibilities for each comment: it’s aggressive and not-insightful (A¬I) it’s aggressive and insightful (AI), it’s not-aggressive and insightful (¬AI), or it’s not-aggressive and not-insightful (¬A¬I).

Let’s suppose, objectively, he’s 50%-likely to be aggressive and 50%-likely to be insightful in any given comment, and the two features are independent of each other. Thus, for each comment, the distribution among the four possibilities is uniform. Assume both fans and critics have priors for each comment that start like this:

This says, for instance, that they’re initially 25%-confident that the comment will be aggressive-and-not-insightful (A¬I), 25%-confident it’ll be aggressive-and-insightful (AI), and therefore 0.25+0.25 = 50%-confident it’ll be aggressive (A¬I or AI).

To ask a question is to notice which side of the partition you’re on. For example:

Given this, let’s start with a simple illustration of how selective attention to questions can lead to disagreement.

How do the fans and critics update from their prior to their posteriors? That depends on what happens—they learn different things in different worlds. Suppose his critics and fans have reliable, simple dispositions:

Given these simple dispositions, we can explicitly write what posteriors they end up with as a function of whether the comment is insightful and/or aggressive.

We can do this with a matrix: the first row says what their posterior is if the comment is aggressive-and-not-insightful (A¬I), the second says what it is if it’s aggressive-and-insightful (AI), etc.

Here’s the formalization of the critics’ dispositions:

What does this diagram mean? Here’s how to read it.

The critics are always conditioning on a truth, but which truth they condition on—what they notice—depends on what happens.

As a result—despite being Bayesians—their posteriors are biased. They start 50%-confident that a given comment is aggressive. But if it is aggressive, they’ll jump to 100% (since they’ll ask Qa), and if it’s not aggressive, they’ll remain at 50% (since they’ll ask a different question, Qi, instead). Thus their average posterior confidence in the comment being aggressive is 0.5*1 + 0.5*0.5 = 75%—since this is higher than their prior of 50%, they tend, on average, to become more confident it’s aggressive.

(Meanwhile, their average posterior in the comment being insightful is unbiased: 0.5*0.5 + 0.25*1 + 0.25*0 = 50%.)

We can do the same exercise with Polder’s fans. The difference is that when he’s insightful, they always notice that, whereas when he’s not-insightful, they instead pay attention to whether he was aggressive. Here’s the matrix representing their posteriors:

Again:

As a result, they’re biased in favor of insight: their average posterior that it’s insightful is 0.25*0.5 + 0.5*1 + 0.25*0.5 = 75%. Meanwhile, their average posterior that it’s aggressive is unbiased: 0.25*1 + 0.5*0.5 + 0.25*0 = 50%.

What happens?

As a result of these differing biases, our ideological Bayesians will polarize.

We can see this in a variety of ways. Suppose both fans and critics see 100 comments from Professor Polder, each independent and having the same (uniform) prior probability of being aggressive and/or insightful.

How do their estimates of the proportion of these 100 comments that were aggressive and were insightful evolve, as they observe more and more of them?

Here’s a graph of how—on average—their estimates of the proportion of aggressive comments out of 100 will evolve (thin lines are individuals; thick lines are averages):

Estimates of proportion of comments (out of 100) that are aggressive

After seeing all 100 comments, the average critic estimates that around 75% of them were aggressive, and the average fan estimates that around 50% of them were.

Similarly, here are the trajectories of estimates for the proportion of insightful comments:

Estimates of proportion of comments (out of 100) that are insightful

After seeing all 100 comments, the average fan estimates that around 75% of them were insightful, and the average critic estimates that around 50% of them were.

This divergences in estimates results in sharp disagreement in the probabilities they assign to particular claims. For example, let’s stipulate that Polder is “rather aggressive” if more than 55% of his comments are aggressive. Taking one representative fan and critic, here’s how their probabilities about whether he’s “rather aggressive” evolve as they see more comments:

Subjective probabilities that he’s “rather aggressive” (>55% aggressive comments)

After seeing the same 100 comments, the Critic is over 99%-confident that Polder is rather aggressive, while the the fan is around 10%-confident of that.

Likewise, stipulate that Polder’s “rather insightful” is more than 55% of his comments are insightful. Here’s how their probabilities in that evolve:

Subjective probabilities that he’s “rather insightful” (>55% insightful comments)

Upshot: When Bayesians are ideological in the simple-minded way described above, they can fall into polarization. The errors are systematic and predictable: the critics over-estimate the number of aggressive comments by 50% (75 rather than 50), and the fans over-estimate the number of insightful comments by 50% (75 rather than 50).

Of course, that simple-minded model was unrealistic: there was a perfect correlation between whether Polder was aggressive and/or insightful, and what questions his fans and critics paid attention to.

But nothing hinges on that—similar results emerge from imperfect correlations between what happens and what questions they ask. Call this stochastic updating.

For example, suppose his critics are simply a bit more likely to ask Qa if he is aggressive than to ask Qa if he’s not aggressive—meaning they’re a bit more likely to notice aggression than non-aggression. For instance: when he’s aggressive, they’re 90%-likely to ask Qa and 10%-likely to ask Qi; meanwhile, when he’s not-aggressive, they randomize: half the time they ask Qa, and the other half Qi.

Similarly, suppose his fans are a bit more likely to notice insight than non-insight. When he’s insightful, they ask Qi 90% of the time and Qa 10% of the time; but when he’s not-insightful, they randomize: half the time they ask Qi and the other half Qa.

These imperfect correlations lead to similar results. For example, here are their estimates for the proportion of aggressive and insightful comments, as they observe more comments:

Estimates of proportion aggressive (out of 100) under stochastic updating
Estimates of the proportion insightful (out of 100) under stochastic updating

And again—picking a representative fan and critic—here’s how their opinions on “rather aggressive” and “rather insightful” evolve:

Probabilities that ‘rather aggressive’ (>55% aggressive) under stochastic updating
Probabilities that ‘rather insightful’ (>55% insightful) under stochastic updating

What to make of this?

Upshot: Bayesians who always condition on truths but are “ideological”—in the sense that which questions they ask is correlated with what the truth is—can exhibit biases and fall into predictable polarization. They needn’t converge to each other, or to the truth. In fact, they’ll sometimes predictably go off the rails.

How robust are these results? 

I’m not sure—this is work in progress. But my conjecture is that introducing virtually any correlation between which questions you ask and what the truth is can be used to get similar results.

If that’s right, then the mere fact that we can’t specify all our questions about our evidence beforehand—but instead must do so post hoc, depending on what we see—seems enough to lead otherwise rational people into bias and polarization.

Crucial question: Will the disagreements persist, once ideological Bayesians find out about them? That depends heavily on what our they know about their own and others’ biases. Under ideal conditions, Bayesians can’t agree to disagree—but those ideal conditions require updating on the true cell of a constant partition, thereby ruling out the sort of correlations between truth and questions we’re studying here.

Of course, if our ideological Bayesians had perfect access to their own biases, they could (in principle) correct for them. But two points.

First, real people don’t have access to the details of their own habits of mind and attentional biases—such things are largely subpersonal and hard to detect.

Second, we’re modeling agents who aren’t able to update on their total evidence, so it’s no surprise that they don’t notice the patterns in their own biases—that would require them asking a different question about (their own responses to) their evidence.

So—though I don’t have anything like a proof of this, yet—I think on natural ways of expanding the model, the polarization that’s emerged will persist even once our ideological Bayesians learn of their disagreement.

Why does this matter?

First: my hunch is that this sort of mechanism helps explain why otherwise smart, diligent, and well-intentioned people so often fail to converge to the truth—even after extended exposure to similar evidence. We see this everywhere—among scientists, economists, political pundits, (AI) forecasters[3], and (obviously) philosophers. Perhaps such disagreements are driven, in part, by the fact that they are systematically asking different questions about their (shared) evidence.

Second: the importance of selective attention for polarization is something “non-ideal” epistemologists, working on ideology, have been telling us for some time. The fact that this is demonstrably correct in a simple Bayesian setting suggests—to me, at least—that formal and non-ideal approaches to epistemology have more to learn from each other than is often thought.

What next?

  1. ^

    The idea that ideology' manifests as habits of mind and patterns of salience (among other things) comes from many authors in the feminist- and critical-epistemology tradition, especially authors like Mills (2007), Haslanger (2008, 2011, 2019, 2021), Siegel (2013), Munton (2023)—and goes back to at least DuBois (1903). Haslanger (2021) distinguishes between the sociological and critical uses of the term ‘ideology’: the former is understood descriptively, capturing the patterns that govern individuals’ perceptions and interactions; the latter is understood normatively, as the patterns that explain why individuals perpetuate oppression. (See also Geuss 1981.) I’m here using ‘ideology’ in a pared-down version of the descriptive sense, focusing on just the attentional—not necessarily normatively-loaded—effects of being “ideological”. This is for simplicity. What is the relationship between my model, and the broader debates about the notion of ideology? I don’t know. What do you think?

  2. ^

    It’s sometimes said that Bayesian posteriors are “biased estimators” because they are biased toward the prior. Still, they are unbiased in at least two other important senses: (1) the average posterior equals the prior [? · GW], and (2) conditional on the posterior estimate of X equalling t, the current best estimate for X is t.

  3. ^

    For an extended discussion, see the recent existential risk persuasion tournament which found that superforecasters and AI experts failed to converge on estimates of AI risk, even after extended discussion and incentives for persuasion.

4 comments

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comment by cousin_it · 2024-02-26T12:23:50.352Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Amazing post. I already knew that filtered evidence can lead people astray, and that many disagreements are about relative importance of things, but your post really made everything "click" for me. Yes, of course if what people look at is correlated with what they see, that will lead to polarization. And even if people start out equally likely to look at X or Y, but seeing X makes them marginally more likely to look at X in the future rather than Y, then some people will randomly polarize toward X and others toward Y.

comment by JenniferRM · 2024-02-26T21:37:18.571Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The video you linked to was really interesting! I got TWO big lessons from it!

First, I learned something about ambiguity of design intent in designed environments from going "from my subjective framing to the objective claims about the scene" (where I misunderstood the prompt and got a large list of wrong things and didn't notice a single change, and later realized that almost all the changes preserved the feature of misdesign that had been salient for me).

Second, I learned a lot from "trying to use the video's frame to create a subjectivity that could represent what really happened in a subjectively coherent trace" by watching over and over while doing gestalt awareness meditation... and failing at the meditation's aims... until I stopped to reverse engineer a "theory of what happened" into a "method of observation".

I shall unpack both of these a bit more.

Initially, the instructions were

...spot the items in the room that are a little "out of place".

On my very first watch through I was proud of having noticed all the things not in parentheses: (1) the desk in the left corner (where the ball disappears, it turns out) is horribly designed and had a bent leg, (2) the ugly ceiling tiles (where two tiles entirely disappearance) violate symmetry because one of the four lights has a broken cover with the reflectors showing, (3) the couch is untidy with cloth laying over the edge (what was hanging over changed), (4) the desk is messy (but the mess lost a wine bottle), (5) the coffee table has objects VERY CLOSE to the edge, where they will be very easy to bump off and cause a tragedy if someone bumps them while moving with normal lack of caution (though the cup changed from black to white and the candle changed into a bowl).

As a proud autist, I'm happy to report that these are all flaws. I followed the instructions reasonably and collected a set of things that I could have been instructed to have collected! <3

All the flaws I found persisted from the beginning to the end, and they basically count as "things out of place" in the normal reading of that concept (like to an ergonomic engineer, or a housekeeper, or whatever).

It would be interesting to design another stimuli like this video, and have the room be absolutely tidy, with flawless design and a recent cleaning and proper maintenance of the ceiling, and see if it replicates "as much" despite there being no "latent conceptual distraction" of a reasonable set of "room flaws" to find that had been paired with ambiguity about "what counts as a flaw" in the instructions.

On my second and third watches, I knew what changes to look for but I had not yet read the video title to understand that gradual change blindness was the key concept.

So I just queued up the set of things to be "sensitive to motion about" in my subjective attentiveness filters and waited for "the feeling of something in jerky motion, for me to resist doing an eye saccade towards" to hit my gestalt scene sense... and I got a couple of those!

However, the place they triggered was in the frame-to-frame jumps in the dithering of the "greyscale" of boring parts of the scene that weren't even "officially changing"!

Like dithering is, in some sense, a cryptographic hash of a scene and so my treating "something jumps as something worthy of salience" was only detecting jumps in places that were not carefully controlled by the stimuli designers!

Ultimately, the second thing I learned was how to apply a top-down expectation of change into my observing loop. 

The thing that finally got me to this place was starting with a list of things that I knew had changed, and then running a rough branch and bound algorithm running a mousing-over along the timeline, and looking at the thumbnail, seeking ANY of the changes showing up as a "jerky pop" as they changed from one thing to the next thing.

This is what proved visually to me no such pops existed. Logically then: the changes were nearly continuous.

The only "pop(!) that looks like a change" that I could then find was scrubbing very fast, so the sped up video finally gave me things that looked like a fade.

What I realized is that to get a subjective sense of what was really happening in real time, I had to buy into the idea that "motion detection will fail me" and I had to make an explicit list of features of "where the scene started" and "what the designers of the scene's shift planned to happen over the course of the shift" and keep both concepts in mind actively during all perceptual acts.

Then, moment to moment, I could flick my attention around to extract, with each saccade of my eyes, a momentary impression like:

  1. "the dithering flickered and the cup on the edge of coffee table is 10% of the way from white to black (which is part of the plan)"...
  2. "the dithering flicked and the exercise ball is 20% disappeared (which is part of the plan)"...
  3. "more flickering and now the candle/bowl on the coffee table is 30% shapeshifted (which is part of the plan)"...
  4. "the portraits on the shelves are 40% moved from low to high (which is part of the plan)"... and so on.

Like here's "the untidy couch object at a fade of ~60% white, ~40% blue" which can be seen and fitted into the expectation of the overall shift that is being consciously perpetrated against your perceptual systems by the stimuli designers:

In the frames before and after it is slightly more or less faded and your visual motion detectors will never see it POP(!) with a feeling of "its like a frog jumped, or a cat's tail writhed, or a bird flew by".

It will always just seem like a locally invalid way for things to be [LW · GW], because it isn't something your inner mental physics simulator could ever generate as a thing that physics does... but also over time the video effect will have one plausible thing slowly be more and more ghostly until it is gone. From valid, to invalid but seemingly static, to valid again.

I think it was critical for this effect that the whole video was 53 seconds long. Auditory working memory is often about 4 seconds long, and I bet video working memory is similar.

The critical thing to make these kinds of "change-blindness mechanism proving stimuli" is probably to make the change "feel invisible" by maintaining a simple and reasonable "invariant over time".

You would want no frame-to-frame visual deltas that are (1) easily perceptible in a side by side comparison (due to low level logarithmic sensitivity processes that science has known about since ~1860) and (2) closer than 5 seconds in time such that the brain could keep lots of detail about any two images (a before and after that are distinct) because the brain will have had more images in between (such as to cause our visual change buffer to overflow before any detector-of-change-classifier actually fires and triggers a new "temporary subjective consensus block" in the brain's overall gestalt consensus summary of "the scene").

...

So that's really interesting! I can instantly imagine ways to transpose this tactic into PR, and management, and politics, and finance, and other domains where the goal is explicitly to gain benefits from hurting people who might have naively and implicitly trusted you to not hurt them through deception.

I bet it will also help with the design of wildly more effective slow missiles.

...

Humans are so fucked. The future is probably going to feel like Blindsight unless our AI overlords love us and want our subjective reality to make sense despite our limitations. "Daily experience as an empathically designed UI for the disabled"?

...

Defensively speaking, (like if there even is any possible defense and we're not just totally doomed) maybe the key principle for the design of systems of defense against the likely attacks would involve archiving obsessively and running offline change detectors on exponentially larger timescales?

It reminds me a bit of Dune "shield fighting": slow on the offense, fast on the defense... but for sense-making?

comment by James Camacho (james-camacho) · 2024-02-27T18:22:22.130Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I've been thinking about something similar, and might write a longer post about it. However, the solution to both is to anneal on your beliefs. Rather than looking at the direct probabilities, look at the logits. You can then raise the temperature, let the population kind of randomize their beliefs, and cool it back down.

See "Solving Multiobjective Game in Multiconflict Situation Based on Adaptive Differential Evolution Algorithm with Simulated Annealing" by Li et. al.