"What if we could redesign society from scratch? The promise of charter cities." [Rational Animations video]
post by Jackson Wagner · 2024-02-18T00:57:50.444Z · LW · GW · 7 commentsThis is a link post for https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v-A1i2g9riU
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7 comments
7 comments
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comment by cousin_it · 2024-02-18T16:09:24.651Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Unfortunately, the game of power is about ruling a territory, not improving it. It took me many years to internalize this idea. "Surely the elite would want to improve things?" No. Putin could improve Russia in many ways, but these ways would weaken his rule, so he didn't. That's why projects like Georgism or charter cities keep failing: they weaken the relative position of the elite, even if they plausibly make life better for everyone. Such projects can only succeed if implemented by a whole country, which requires a revolution or at least a popular movement. It's possible - it's how democracy was achieved - but let's be clear on what it takes.
Replies from: Jackson Wagner↑ comment by Jackson Wagner · 2024-02-18T18:28:49.073Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Yup, there are definitely a lot of places (like 99+% of places, 99+% of the time!) which aren't interested in a given reform -- especially one as uniqely big and experimental as charter cities. This is why in our video we tried to focus on political tractability as one of the biggest difficulties -- hopefully we don't come across as saying that the world will instantly be tiled over with charter cities tomorrow! But some charter cities are happening sometimes in some places -- in addition to the examples in the video, Zambia is pretty friendly towards the idea, and is supportive of the new-city project Nkwashi. (I think Charter Cities Institute considers Nkwashi to be their biggest current partnership?) Democracy was achieved, after all, even if it still hasn't won a total victory even after 250+ years.
comment by the gears to ascension (lahwran) · 2024-02-18T09:12:35.420Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
The comments are almost nothing but great takedowns of the idea. Eg:
In practice a lot of charter cities end up being tax havens for rich people. If you get common goods from one country/community but then as soon as you reap the fruits of those common goods you remove yourself from the redistributive programs that make the common goods possible, you can essentially be freerider, which undermines the common goods that generated the social welfare.
or,
I feel like your argument at 9:04 is exactly why Charter Cities cannot work within an existing polity. It's not just a government that would be threatened by a rival internal entity, but the broader demos would also feel unfairly excluded, and also subject to extortion by the Charter City (ultra-low wages for menial work to boost profits of those within the city). Singapore used to be part of Malaysia, it was only when it was fully separate that the new Nation-City of Singapore could embark on its radical reforms. The government and the demos were part of the one state. South Korea did not need to pilot good governance in a city to progress, the country moved away from military dictatorship and both the people and the institutions embraced democracy & economic development. I think moving a whole country is plausible (and agreeably difficult) - though that country can also be a breakaway city / province (as per Singapore, Monaco, Hong Kong, East Timor), but it has to be a whole country.
or,
This entire idea seems extremely vulnerable to colonialism/external interests/comedically high levels of corrupt abuse that look like “company towns”. I’m sure that there is a genuine, noble ambition here, but I don’t see it working out in the majority of cases.
or,
The problem with Charter cities, much like Charter schools, is that those who pay the taxes and work in the region do not get the benefit from the elitist status
or
Maybe im missing something, but I dont see how charter cities would avoid fallong into the same traps of corruption and incompetence that we already see in so many governments. Only without a constitution or political checks and balances to keep the worst offenders in check.
This doesn't work because it doesn't actually solve the incentive alignment issues that cause multinational corporations to be misaligned optimizers. If there was a version that did, it might be promising - but it would need to be specifically designed to prevent big interests from benefiting, and would therefore likely get attacked by them. the biggest problem with starting your own thing is that you either get big from toxic funding - or you don't get enough funding.
comment by the gears to ascension (lahwran) · 2024-02-18T09:26:09.201Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Some things that might be components of a version that actually has some shot at working:
- https://www.grassrootseconomics.org/ is a currency system specifically designed to be hyper-local and not connected long distance, unlike typical alternate currency systems like global cryptocurrencies, because this disconnection limits international interests' incentive to manipulate the currency for their own powerseeking. interesting videos about the motivation and design on https://www.youtube.com/@WillRuddick/videos - importantly it's intended to be a secondary currency used in small groups where another currency is also in use.
- https://www.actu-environnement.com/media/pdf/ostrom_1990.pdf or https://wiki.p2pfoundation.net/Governing_the_Commons or https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=ostrom+governing+the+commons - there's solid research on designs for organizations that do not rely on the typical libertarian individualist approach and could use something more peer to peer and cooperative. I have a high opinion of many libertarian principles, but the "everyone is completely separated and nothing is managed through resource sharing systems of any kind, it's all assumed to be one-gatekeeper-per-resource" seems like a recipe to get all the resource holders hodling at the expense of non-resource-holders, which is the core issue anticipated by commenters.
if you want to defend this idea further, I'd suggest integrating some of this into the next video on the topic, so that it can head off criticisms from many perspectives, not just criticisms from liberal and libertarian perspectives, which seem to be all that the current one has discussion of. I'd suggest you watch most of the videos from https://www.youtube.com/@unlearningeconomics9021 to get a sense of what another perspective might look like that you'd need to defend against, because almost all the comments seem to be people who understand the left's criticisms and the video doesn't seem to be made with those criticisms in mind. (Note that I do not generally believe the old fashioned left have solutions, just good criticisms. Only specific slices of the modern left have actual ideas for how to implement stuff that might actually work. and for clarity, left != liberal. left here is anything left of liberal.)
In general, the idea that "faster growth" is in any way good for the common person is considered propaganda for corporations at this point. If you want to change that, you'd have to show a mechanism for it to be different.
Replies from: Jackson Wagner↑ comment by Jackson Wagner · 2024-02-18T19:14:29.466Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I will definitely check out that youtube channel! I'm pretty interested in mechanism design and public-goods stuff, and I agree there are a lot of good ideas there. For instance, I am a huge fan of Georgism, so I definitely recognize that going all-in on the "libertarian individualist approach" is often not the right fit for the situation! Honestly, even though charter cities are somewhat an intrinsically libertarian concept, part of the reason I like the charter city idea is indeed the potential for experimenting with new ways to manage the commons and provide public goods -- Telosa is explicitly georgist, for example, and even hyper-libertarian Prospera has some pretty interesting concepts around things like crime liability insurance, which in the USA is considered a pretty left-wing (or maybe "far-liberal"? idk...) idea for trying to reduce gun violence.
But yeah, a lot of common leftist critiques of society/capitalism/etc can feel kind of... shallow, or overly-formulaic, or confused about the incentives of a given situation, to me? So I'd like to get a better understanding of the best versions of the leftist worldview, in order to better appreciate what the common critiques are getting at.
comment by M. Y. Zuo · 2024-02-18T03:57:33.703Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
They’ll still need to follow their mother country’s constitution, criminal code, and international treaties, but should otherwise be given the freedom to design their own legal code to encourage the growth of new industries
This seems to be a show stopper.
Couldn't the country's Supreme Court just decide anyways one day that the existing 'legal code' apply regardless of what the original intentions of the founders are or what the founding documents say?
It would need a constitutional amendment to credibly enshrine its special status. But why would a supermajority of the politicians and citizens from existing political boundaries ratify that?
In China's case it was clear, they had nothing left to lose in 1978 after hitting rock bottom, but I highly doubt most countries would even exist after 120+ years of the deepest misery and suffering, in order to reach rock bottom.