post by [deleted] · · ? · GW · 0 comments

This is a link post for

0 comments

Comments sorted by top scores.

comment by gjm · 2023-03-06T13:29:56.102Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I did not downvote your original post, but it did not make a positive impression on me. I'll explain some reasons why, in case they are helpful.

  • It presents as new something that's not new at all. (Maybe your specific take on the idea of multiple universes and the like is new, but you don't say anything about what that specific take is.) E.g., there's the "string theory landscape" (example book by famous author with major publisher for popular audience: Leonard Susskind's "The cosmic landscape") and "eternal inflation" (example book by famous author with major publisher for popular audience: Michio Kaku's "Parallel worlds", though I admit much of the book is about other things) and Tegmark's "mathematical universe" (example book by famous author with major publisher for popular audience: Tegmark's own "Our mathematical universe").
  • Its complaints seem exaggerated. "Theocracy", really? You complain here that you only said some scientists are "theocratic" and everyone wrongly assumed you meant science as a whole. But what "theocratic" (as opposed to, say, "religious") means is that the people in charge, specifically, are driven by religion and probably suppressing all dissent. It makes no sense at all to say "these few people, a subset of a subset, are theocratic". So of course you were taken to be making a claim about The Scientific Establishment more generally. Anyway, it seems very untrue that there's anything like a theocratic prohibition on multiverse theories; the nearest thing to a theocracy in fundamental physics at present is the priesthood of string theory, and I think on the whole string theorists are for multiverses.
  • Calling the "shut up and calculate" approach "theocratic" seems to me to be simply a misunderstanding of what that phrase means. (Possibly also relevant: the person who first used it did so to criticize the Copenhagen interpretation's supposedly dismissive attitude towards more philosophical questions, and furthermore has since then come to think that the criticism wasn't really fair.) Physicists of the SUAC school don't, so far as I can tell, generally hold that talk of philosophical issues should be suppressed; they just don't themselves find it helpful and think physicists can make more progress by focusing on other things.
  • The focus on "moderators of the physics subreddits" seems weird. Who cares about the moderators of the physics subreddits? (And why would Less Wrong be a suitable place to discuss their alleged deficiencies?)
  • In fact, that focus strongly suggests a specific scenario: you have some theory of physics, you've been trying to promote it on Reddit, it hasn't gone down well, and you're annoyed about that. And, unfortunately for you, in the great majority of such cases the problem is not primarily with the Reddit moderators. Of course you might be the exception! But the expectation you're setting up is not a good one.
  • Taking a look at e.g. /r/physics, there is discussion of philosophy, multiverses, etc., from time to time. So if the Evil Theocratic Moderators are suppressing such discussion, they aren't doing it very carefully.

Also:

  • I don't think shminux's assumption that you could stand to learn some fundamental physics rather than handwaving about it was unreasonable, whether or not it was correct. Your original post doesn't read like it's written by someone with substantial expertise.
  • Having self-published books about relativity is not strong evidence about whether a person has expertise in fundamental physics. (I actually suspect it may be evidence against.) Again, I am not claiming that you are a crank; I'm not in a position to judge. But the evidence we have available at present doesn't give us much grounds for confidence that you're not.

[EDITED to add:] Oh, one other thing: your profile gives a URL for your web page, but it is the wrong URL. The real one has .org on the end, not .com.

Replies from: 314159
comment by amelia (314159) · 2023-03-06T18:22:51.553Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thanks for the feedback on why my post did not make a good impression on you*. I’ll respond to each of your points individually. My responses are in bold. 

 

  • It presents as new something that's not new at all. (Maybe your specific take on the idea of multiple universes and the like is new, but you don't say anything about what that specific take is.) E.g., there's the "string theory landscape" (example book by famous author with major publisher for popular audience: Leonard Susskind's "The cosmic landscape") and "eternal inflation" (example book by famous author with major publisher for popular audience: Michio Kaku's "Parallel worlds", though I admit much of the book is about other things) and Tegmark's "mathematical universe" (example book by famous author with major publisher for popular audience: Tegmark's own "Our mathematical universe").

You said my post did not make a good impression on you* because “It presents as new something that’s not new at all.” My original point was that we don’t need to artificially limit ourselves to non-philosophical, universe-centric thinking, and there is some risk involved with censorship by the self-described “shut up and calculate” school of thought. (Yes, the term was initially coined by a critic, but many people now describe themselves as being in this group, like a sort of "badge of honor.") I’ve read the books you suggested. I agree they are excellent. If my point was redundant with these books or other posts on LW, I apologize. It seems there is also some redundancy on LW when it comes to posts on AGI risk, and the problems that could result from closed or censored discussions on AGI risk. Yet I feel this redundancy has been handled somewhat differently than my own apparent redundancy. 

 

  • Its complaints seem exaggerated. "Theocracy", really? You complain here that you only said some scientists are "theocratic" and everyone wrongly assumed you meant science as a whole. But what "theocratic" (as opposed to, say, "religious") means is that the people in charge, specifically, are driven by religion and probably suppressing all dissent. It makes no sense at all to say "these few people, a subset of a subset, are theocratic". So of course you were taken to be making a claim about The Scientific Establishment more generally. Anyway, it seems very untrue that there's anything like a theocratic prohibition on multiverse theories; the nearest thing to a theocracy in fundamental physics at present is the priesthood of string theory, and I think on the whole string theorists are for multiverses.

You describe my writing as “complaining,” and my discussion of risks as “complaints.” These words have an obvious negative connotation. Do you consider discussions about AGI risk to be full of “complaints,” or are they “valid concerns”? Why do you choose to use demeaning words to describe my concerns, but not the concerns of others? Also you say “...it seems very untrue that there's anything like a theocratic prohibition on multiverse theories.” I don’t feel there’s a “theocratic prohibition” on multiverse theories, but I do feel there is a bias against, and some censorship of, multiverse theories and other philosophical outlooks on physics. I described this bias as being “theocratic” in the way physicists with this bias criticize and sometimes suppress the physicists who discuss “why” quantum phenomena might happen. I would encourage you to ask any multiverse theorist if they’ve ever encountered this bias. (And yes, string theory is one particular multiverse theory. I don’t think I said otherwise.) 

      

  • The focus on "moderators of the physics subreddits" seems weird. Who cares about the moderators of the physics subreddits? (And why would Less Wrong be a suitable place to discuss their alleged deficiencies?)

 

My original post had only one sentence about reddit. Granted, reddit is not exactly a bastion of intellectual thought. However, it can be used to get a real-time impression of sentiment among a certain portion of society. I referred to “moderators of the physics subreddits” as an example of the bias against philosophical physics in action. I thought Less Wrong would be an appropriate place to discuss the bias against philosophical physics. The moderators were just a real-time example. I have no more desire to focus on reddit than you do. I didn't know I would have to elaborate on that one sentence repeatedly in these follow-up posts/replies. 

 

  • In fact, that focus strongly suggests a specific scenario: you have some theory of physics, you've been trying to promote it on Reddit, it hasn't gone down well, and you're annoyed about that. And, unfortunately for you, in the great majority of such cases the problem is not primarily with the Reddit moderators. Of course you might be the exception! But the expectation you're setting up is not a good one.

 

Again, the word “annoyed,” is like the word “complained.” And again, would you describe people worried about AGI risk as being “annoyed” by it? Or would you choose words like “concerned” and "worried"? And there was indeed a specific scenario or reddit that disturbed me recently, but it didn’t have to do with me “promoting” an idea. It was a post in which someone asked if Brian Greene’s perspectives were “BS” and there was pile-on of people criticizing Brian’s ideas. Obviously, he doesn’t need me to defend him. Still, the scenario represents the problem I’m talking about. The issue is not a personal grudge, but rather it’s a broader issue of a bias against larger, philosophical outlooks in physics. 

 

  • Taking a look at e.g. /r/physics, there is discussion of philosophy, multiverses, etc., from time to time. So if the Evil Theocratic Moderators are suppressing such discussion, they aren't doing it very carefully.

 

I don’t think moderators are “evil.” Again, “evil” is an extreme and loaded word. Why not “biased”? Furthermore, your choice of capitalization in "Evil Theocratic Moderators" seems like an attempt to make me seem like I subscribe to something crazy and extreme. I imagine that it's easier to paint me as extreme, and then criticize me for the alleged extremism, than it is to criticize any of my actual points. However, I would agree that this is just a bias I’m talking about, and not an all-out total censorship of all philosophical physics theories. There are indeed philosophical theories that make it through "from time to time," as you noted. 

 

 

Also:

  • I don't think shminux's assumption that you could stand to learn some fundamental physics rather than handwaving about it was unreasonable, whether or not it was correct. Your original post doesn't read like it's written by someone with substantial expertise.

As far as the advice to learn fundamental physics goes, I only mentioned my books on special and general relativity to convey that I do have an understanding of “some fundamental physics.” I would agree though that a person can always think more and more deeply about the basics. (For example, concepts like mass-energy and spacetime are almost infinitely interesting.)  Also, I didn’t intend for my post to be like an academic physics paper. LW doesn’t seem like the right forum for that. I was only trying to discuss the idea of a supra-universal, philosophical approach to some physics phenomena, and the bias that exists against that approach. 

 

  • Having self-published books about relativity is not strong evidence about whether a person has expertise in fundamental physics. (I actually suspect it may be evidence against.) Again, I am not claiming that you are a crank; I'm not in a position to judge. But the evidence we have available at present doesn't give us much grounds for confidence that you're not.

 

This is getting tiresome, but as before, your choice of wording seems a little passive aggressive when you say “I am not claiming that you are a crank; I’m not in a position to judge. But the evidence we have available at present doesn't give us much grounds for confidence that you're not.” Words like “crank, annoyed, complained” seem slightly disrespectful. However, you’re right that, in my original post, I also was disrespectful when I said “I’ve noticed a universe-centric perspective among some scientists that seems to almost amount to a sort of theocracy. For example, there is a subset of the quantum physics community who refer to themselves as the “shut up and calculate” faction. They dissuade people from asking “why” certain phenomena occur.”  I agree that “theocracy” is a loaded word, like "crank, annoyed, complained" and "evil." 

As far as my books and evidence are concerned, DM me if you’d like a free PDF copy of one of the books, and I’ll send it to you. Then you can have more evidence to judge my knowledge of “fundamental physics” for yourself. 

 

[EDITED to add:] Oh, one other thing: your profile gives a URL for your web page, but it is the wrong URL. The real one has .org on the end, not .com.

Nice catch.... thanks! I make that mistake all the time. 

Finally, I’m not going to engage further, so please try to refrain from saying anything else that misrepresents or exaggerates my positions, as I won’t respond. If people want to know what I actually said in the original post, the follow up post, or this reply, all they need to do is look.  In any case, I appreciated the discussion. 

 

[EDITED:
 *I edited my original reply. Originally, I had written about why "you downvoted my post" when you (gjm) actually said you did not downvote my post. Sorry for the mistake. I was working on too many projects and replies at once, all while copying and pasting from a separate document. In order to fix the mistake, I have since changed "you downvoted my post" wording to "my post did not make a good impression on you" wording. I'm not familiar enough with LW to know if the platform will show the inline edits when I submit this edit. I hope it does, but if not, please know that I initially was incorrect on the downvoting versus "not a good impression" issue. I think the rest of my comments still stand though.]     

Replies from: gjm, interstice
comment by gjm · 2023-03-06T20:18:46.118Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thanks for the feedback on your original downvote.

I was not offering "feedback on [my] original downvote"; there was no original downvote; as I already said, I did not downvote your earlier post. (Nor this one, nor any of your comments.)

You said you downvoted the original post because "It presents as new something that's not new at all".

No, I neither downvoted that post nor said I had. But I do think that that post presents as new something that isn't new, and I stand by that.

My original point was that we don't need to artificially limit ourselves to non-philosophical, universe-centric thinking

Sure. But when you post something saying "Isn't it a mistake to think X?", the implication even if you don't say it explicitly is that people generally think X. No one is posting articles saying "Isn't it a mistake to think that the sky is green?".

You describe my writing as “complaining,” and my discussion of risks as “complaints.” These words have an obvious negative connotation. [...] Why do you choose to use demeaning words to describe my concerns, but not the concerns of others?

I didn't particularly intend any negative connotation. (If you wanted to describe some of the things I said about your post as "complaints", that would be pretty reasonable too.) The term certainly isn't "demeaning". Out of curiosity I put my own username and "complaint" into the LW search bar, and the first thing it found (which admittedly is from years back) is a comment of mine in which I describe myself as "whining" and having a "complaint". Other search results also show me calling things "complaints" without any derogatory meaning. I think your, er, complaint here is just off-base; the demeaning you think you see is not real.

My original post had only one sentence about reddit.

Two, I think (the one after the one that explicitly contains the word "reddit" is surely continuing the thought of the previous one), out of only 12 sentences in the whole post, and the Reddit physics moderators are one of only two specific groups of people you call out as having a "theocratic" attitude. I don't think my description of what you wrote is unreasonable.

Again, the word "annoyed", is like the word "complained".

Again, I didn't intend it derogatorily. I get annoyed all the time. There is nothing wrong with getting annoyed (other than the fact that it's an unpleasant experience).

someone asked if Brian Greene's perspectives were "BS" and there was a pile-on of people criticizing Brian's ideas.

It sounds as if you're talking about this reddit discussion, ... except that I had a look at it and I didn't see a pile-on of people criticizing Brian Greene's ideas.

I don't think moderators are "evil"

The grandiose language and capital letters were intended as a signal that I wasn't being terribly serious, and was neither stating my own opinion nor making actual claims about yours. I'm sorry if that came across as dismissive. (Also, I think that when you begin by calling something "theocratic" you lose the right to complain that others are presenting your position as extremist.) Anyway, the point is that discussions like e.g. the "is what Greene and Kaku say BS?" one do happen, despite being somewhat philosophical and speculative, which to my mind indicates that whatever bias you might perceive it doesn't prevent such discussions taking place.

your choice of wording seems a little passive-aggressive when you say "I am not claiming that you are a crank; I’m not in a position to judge. But the evidence we have available at present doesn't give us much grounds for confidence that you're not."

I'm not sure how I could have expressed that in a way you would find less "passive-aggressive". Since the point I am making is "one reason why your post wasn't well received may have been that it gives the impression that you might be a crank", there's no way to say it without using the term "crank" or something broadly equivalent. I can't say "but of course it's obvious you aren't in fact a crank" because I've got no way to tell whether you are or not, because you've said very little about your opinions and ideas. I appreciate that it isn't pleasant to be told "what you wrote sounds like you might be a crank", but I think that is actually one of the reasons why you got downvoted.

DM me if you'd like a free PDF copy of one of the books [...] then you can have more evidence [...] I'm not going to engage further

It doesn't seem like there's much point in my having more evidence, if you've decided there isn't value in further engagement.

comment by interstice · 2023-03-06T19:29:34.638Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

You said you downvoted the linked post because “It presents as new something that’s not new at all.”

He said he did not downvote the post.

Replies from: 314159
comment by amelia (314159) · 2023-03-06T19:43:23.600Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Yes, good point. My bad... I was working on responses to multiple comments from both posts, all in a different document, while my dog kept jumping on me. To fix my error, whenever I say something about “You downvoted my post because...” please substitute “My post did not make a good impression on you because....”  Sorry for the mistake. Thanks for pointing it out!

comment by qjh (juehang) · 2023-03-07T18:45:13.132Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Physicist here. Your post did not make a positive impression on me, because it seems to be generally wrong.

Your belief that there are 'philosophical' and 'shut-up-and-calculate' physicists generally agrees with my anecdotal experience. However, that's the thing: there are many physicists who are happy to think about philosophy. I think I fall into that camp. Really strange to think that there are philosophical physicists, and yet think that physicists don't engage in philosophical discussion. Do you think we're being muzzled? I'm quite happy with my freedom of speech, just to make this point clear.

I don't want to just say your post is wrong, so here's be being more specific:

From a strictly materialist perspective, doesn’t it seem rather “universe-centric” to think the reality that gave rise to the Big Bang and our universe(1) only gave rise to our particular universe?

Right, many physicists who actually have thoughts about this don't.

And doesn’t it seem even more universe-centric to think of the supra-universal (“deeper”) reality as less significant than its product(s)?

I don't think many physicists have strong opinions on what's 'more significant'. I'd say working physicists obviously have strong opinions on what they can actually work on, though. Just because people don't work on something doesn't mean it's not 'significant', it might merely mean our current understanding is so far away that there's no point.

Granted, we can’t know much about the deeper reality, but it seems there could be some hints about its nature in fields like quantum mechanics, relativity physics, cosmology and philosophy.

Yes.

Quantum mechanics, by dealing with the smallest “building blocks”/waves seems especially promising as a sort of island beach upon which artifacts from the surrounding sea may wash ashore. 

Indeed, quantum fundamentals is a rather active field, both experimentally and theoretically.

Unfortunately though, I’ve noticed a universe-centric perspective among some scientists that seems to almost amount to a sort of theocracy.

?

For example, there is a subset of the quantum physics community who refer to themselves as the “shut up and calculate” faction. They dissuade people from asking “why” certain phenomena occur.

None of my colleagues have dissuaded me before. 

The theocrats also predominate among the moderators of the physics subreddits, and they promptly censor/delete any post which they deem to be “speculation,” “philosophical,” “unproven” or a “self-idea.” “Dangerous” ideas include string theory, multiverse theories, and any thoughts which don’t conform to universe-centrism. 

There's a difference between speculation on public forums by laymen and speculation by, say, me. That sounds elitist, but stick with me. Firstly, people love to speculate. If online forums, such as on reddit, didn't discourage it, most posts would be that. Maybe you like that, but that's not very conducive for a general sub like r/physics. The discussion would just not really be a reflection of Physics as is done in the real world at all! Second, even just a few years in, people get a little sick of their uber driver picking them up from the Physics dept building and talking their ear off about their thoughts regarding quantum consciousness.

Most importantly, though, most of these discussions with laymen are just unproductive. Here on LW people like to complain about laymen not even understanding AI safety basics, and coming up with stupid suggestions that have been discussed to death in the 2000s. How do you think physicists feel about ideas that have been discussed to death in the 1900s, or things that are just Not Even Wrong?

It seems it would be better for science if theocrats were to simply ignore the ideas with which they disagree, rather than hide those ideas from the eyes of others.

That just doesn't work, unless your suggestion is for professional physicists to never have online forums where they can discuss things but are also allowed to mix with laymen. 

Furthermore, it seems like the “no questions” mantra is antithetical to science. 

That's the thing; controversial topics are quite happily discussed among physicists. Reddit or LW is just not where science generally happens.

Finally as a closing thought, one needs to remember that science is defined by empiricism. At the end of the day, the strict focus on falsification is just contrary to how science works in real life; most physicists I know think in effectively Bayesian terms regarding model probabilities. However, that is still empiricism, just relaxed to be okay with induction. Many physicists do enjoy pure philosophy, but we don't pretend that they're physics. That's one of your biggest mistakes. You think that these things should be physics because they concern the natural world, and physicists refuse to accept such discussions. In reality, my buddies and I often chat about the fundamental nature of reality over a cold pint; we just don't call it physics. 

In addition, physicists who deal with the fundamental stuff (eg. me, but I'm not a theorist) are only a minority. The condensed matter community, for example, is likely significantly larger than the particle physics or cosmology communities. Then there's AMO, quantum sensing (overlaps with AMO), etc...and these fields largely (not not completely, eg. quantum gravitation experiments) have little to do with metaphysics. This makes the point about online forums even more acute. Without harsh moderation, most physicists, and most physics, would simply be drowned out by the cacophony of speculation and fundamental physics.

 

Edit: I looked at your books too, though only the amazon preview. Congrats on the books, writing a few hundred pages is always an accomplishment. I can't say I see any expertise beyond a pop-sci level, though. This is not a criticism, and I hope you don't take it as such; these are pop-sci books, and don't require more expertise than, well, a pop-sci level of expertise. They can be excellent books in their own right, I do not have the expertise to judge science communication. However, I'm not sure how to convey this without sounding like an elitist asshole, but I've never had productive discussions about physics with people who don't at least have a graduate-level understanding of physics before. Note here that I am not referring to a PhD (or MSc); it is likely possible for someone who has more self-discipline than I'll ever have to self-learn a lot of physics. However, there is a ton of material to learn before one can even be useful in a discussion. For example, scientific language is a bit of an argot, due to both tradition and necessity; in regular speech, equivocation is so common that people don't even notice it most of the time, but such imprecise language slows discussion down a huge amount with technical subjects. Equivocation is one of the biggest issues I face when discussing science with laymen.

Replies from: 314159
comment by amelia (314159) · 2023-03-09T03:59:42.946Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thank you for your feedback. Here’s my feedback on your feedback. My words are in bold. 

Your quote: Physicist here. Your post did not make a positive impression on me, because it seems to be generally wrong.

My response: I’m really sorry my post did not make a positive impression on you. As to whether it was “generally wrong,” I’ll address that based on your points that follow. In any places where I feel you misunderstood me, that is my fault, because I obviously did a terrible job explaining myself if multiple people misunderstood (which they did). I'll try to clarify a little bit in this reply. 

--

Your quote: Your belief that there are 'philosophical' and 'shut-up-and-calculate' physicists generally agrees with my anecdotal experience. 

My response: Thank you. I guess this belief (the premise on which my initial post was supposed to be based) “generally agrees” with your anecdotal experience, so we're OK so far.

 

--

Your quote: However, that's the thing: there are many physicists who are happy to think about philosophy. I think I fall into that camp. Really strange to think that there are philosophical physicists, and yet think that physicists don't engage in philosophical discussion.

My response: My point was not supposed to be that “physicists don’t engage in philosophical discussion.” It was that the non-philosophical, self-described “shut up and calculate” physicists have a bias against philosophical discussions. Philosophical physicists definitely engage in philosophical discussions. That was supposed to be one of the two main points in my original post (that the non-philosophical physicists are biased against philosophical discussions among philosophical physicists). I think we're actually in agreement on this, but I clearly did a poor job explaining myself, since you thought we were in disagreement. My apologies...

--

Your quote of my quote: “From a strictly materialist perspective, doesn’t it seem rather “universe-centric” to think the reality that gave rise to the Big Bang and our universe(1) only gave rise to our particular universe?”

Your response: Right, many physicists who actually have thoughts about this don't.

My response: OK, so I think we're alright on this part.   

--

Your quote of my quote: And doesn’t it seem even more universe-centric to think of the supra-universal (“deeper”) reality as less significant than its product(s)? 

Your response: I don't think many physicists have strong opinions on what's 'more significant'. 

My response: I think we're OK on this. I started the post out with these questions in an attempt to set the stage for philosophical thinking about physics, before mentioning the bias. However, I think this probably wasn't effective, as people wondered why I was asking these sort of obvious questions.

--

Your quote of my original quote: Granted, we can’t know much about the deeper reality, but it seems there could be some hints about its nature in fields like quantum mechanics, relativity physics, cosmology and philosophy.

Your response: Yes.

My response: OK, again, “Yes,” makes me think we're OK with this. 

--

Your quote of my original quote: Quantum mechanics, by dealing with the smallest “building blocks”/waves seems especially promising as a sort of island beach upon which artifacts from the surrounding sea may wash ashore. 

Your response: Indeed, quantum fundamentals is a rather active field, both experimentally and theoretically.

My response: So again, it seems like you don’t think I’m “generally wrong” on this point either. I guess that’s good. 

--

I actually can’t afford to spend much more time on this. The main idea is that you felt my post was “generally wrong,” but I think that, in actuality, we agree on most of the points. In the places where you believed we disagreed, I don't actually disagree with you. Again, that's my bad, since I communicated my viewpoints so poorly that they were misunderstood.  

--

Your edit: I looked at your books too, though only the amazon preview. Congrats on the books, writing a few hundred pages is always an accomplishment. I can't say I see any expertise beyond a pop-sci level, though. This is not a criticism, and I hope you don't take it as such; these are pop-sci books, and don't require more expertise than, well, a pop-sci level of expertise. They can be excellent books in their own right, I do not have the expertise to judge science communication. 

My response: Thanks for the congrats! Yes, the books were intended to be “for the masses,” which is “pop-sci.”  However, I consider the term “pop-sci” as a compliment. 

I strongly believe that the average person deserves to know, and is capable of understanding, basic concepts of time (like time dilation) and gravity (from curving spacetime). I realize that people might not need to know about the nature of time and gravity, but somehow it seems like a shame if people don’t ever have a clue about such fundamental aspects of reality. It’s rather like the way the average person could get by without knowing the Earth is round, but I think people deserve at least the opportunity to know this. If I’ve explained advanced concepts in a way that is both correct, and easy to understand in the book, then that makes me really happy. 

Also, I didn’t mention the books to demonstrate some great level of “expertise.” In my first post, I didn’t mention them at all. It’s just that the response to my first post was advice that I should go and learn some foundational physics. I mentioned the books at that point only to show that I do indeed have some familiarity w/ foundational physics. After that, someone suggested I am likely to be a "crank" author. I think that means my views would be considered radical or bizarre. I'll just let people judge for themselves, and share the book titles in a new reply to this post. The reason I didn't do so in the first place was because I didn't want to use LW for free marketing. I think it might be necessary to mention the titles though, in order to defend myself from the "crank" speculation?

--   

Your continued edit: However, I'm not sure how to convey this without sounding like an elitist asshole, but I've never had productive discussions about physics with people who don't at least have a graduate-level understanding of physics before. 

My response: I don’t think you seem like an elitist asshole at all. It just seems that your experience has been different than my experience. My experience is that it’s even possible to have productive discussions about physics with teenagers. As you maybe saw, one of my books introduces teens and tweens to special and general relativity, with that in mind. I guess it partly depends upon how you define “productive discussions.” To me, a productive discussion is one in which one or both parties comes out of the discussion with new insights, or a deeper understanding than they had before the discussion. You probably have a higher ideal for productivity. 

In my mind, this LW thread was a productive discussion. I learned that I must have done a very poor job explaining myself in my initial post. That’s the most obvious reason why multiple people misunderstood the points I was trying to make. 

I think that next time I should use examples of well-known people who might fall into one camp or another to make my points.  The reason I didn’t do so in my original post is because sometimes name-dropping makes it seem like the name-dropped people endorse everything a writer says, which isn’t fair to the name-dropped people. Furthermore, it might seem like the writer agrees with everything the name-dropped person has ever said, which would just be incorrect. Still, as a result of this discussion, I’ve concluded it’s better to use names of people, and then maybe I could add footnotes about a lack of endorsement going either way. I also was probably too sensitive to criticism of my initial post. It’s so easy to read a response in a tone of voice that’s different than that which was intended. 

So anyway, thank you for a discussion that was productive (for me at least). It must have taken some time, and I sincerely appreciate your effort.  


 

Replies from: juehang
comment by qjh (juehang) · 2023-03-09T16:02:45.190Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Just to be clear, many academics are also educators. So when I say productive, I generally mean productive for both sides; after all, I have many discussions that are hopefully productive but largely in a one-sided way. It's called class.

I don't think it's been that productive to me, because I haven't learnt anything new or gained a new perspective. Outreach and education do not necessarily represent productive discussion in that sense; I consider the former a duty and the latter a job. There are often surprises and productive discussions, especially when teaching, but that's because many undergraduate students effectively have a graduate-level understanding, especially in the latter years of their undergraduate degree. Still, it is not the norm.

So really, I don't think it's true that philosophical discussion in general is discouraged. I think it's more fair to say that philosophical discussion is discouraged in online forums where laypeople and physicists both inhabit. There's nothing particularly deep about that. Physicists are just often a little tired of the kind of philosophical thought that typically comes to laymen, both because typically it is very hard to discuss anything with people who are not used to the precision of language required for scientific discussion, and because so much ink has been spilled over the centuries that most thoughts are not novel, especially when someone does not have a good understanding of the literature. While it might be reasonable to think that it's good as long as it is productive for one side, I think it's important to just realise that we're people too, and I'm not going to be in patient outreach mode 100% of the time on the internet (or even 50%); most of the time I just wish that the few places I can discuss physics with random people aren't choked up by largely unoriginal philosophy. There's also the fact that I briefly mentioned, which is that laypeople who visit sciencey places like r/physics (or LW) often really really really really like talking about metaphysics; allowing that would just mean it's impossible to wade through all the philosophy to find any empirical physics at all.

Basically, I still disagree with this statement:

that the non-philosophical physicists are biased against philosophical discussions among philosophical physicists

I have no encountered such bias, at least towards me, and I am one hell of a rambler. I'm also not particularly senior or anything, so it's not like people are deferring to me or something.

comment by shminux · 2023-03-06T08:56:24.432Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I don't want to engage further, will just leave a recommendation here to listen to (or read the transcripts of) Sean Carroll's podcasts, especially solo ones, those with other prominent physicists working in foundations and the AMAs. It might give you better insights into what professional physicists do and think. A few links:

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2022/06/06/200-solo-the-philosophy-of-the-multiverse/

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2023/01/09/222-andrew-strominger-on-quantum-gravity-and-the-real-world/

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2022/11/21/218-raphael-bousso-on-black-holes-and-the-holographic-universe/

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2021/05/31/149-lee-smolin-on-time-philosophy-and-the-nature-of-reality/

https://www.preposterousuniverse.com/podcast/2021/01/18/130-frank-wilczek-on-the-present-and-future-of-fundamental-physics/

Replies from: 314159
comment by amelia (314159) · 2023-03-06T18:29:29.723Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thanks for the recommendations. I love Sean Carroll's way of thinking. It was exactly this philosophical and "supra-universal" way of thinking that I was trying to defend in my original post, although I apparently did a poor job at it. Anyway, great recommendations! 

comment by Rafael Harth (sil-ver) · 2023-03-06T09:32:19.490Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Note that you don't need to explicitly dislike anything about a post to downvote it; it's enough if you didn't think it added anything. There's lots of people posting stuff (I feel like it's gotten more in the past year, too?) and limited space on the front page.

Or, you know, you can just be annoyed with the tone and downvote it without thinking much. The fact that downvotes are free (for the user who gives them out) and anyonymous encourages that kind of behavior.

Personally, I'm very annoyed with the phrase "many worlds interpretation of wave function collapse" because it gets things backwards; there is no collapse in the math. There's the math describing the wave function, and then collapse is an additional postulate that, if adopted, makes the theory strictly more complex, and you can either accept this additional thing or not. But I usually wouldn't bother writing a comment about it; I'd just tab out of the post and move on. It definitely makes me not want to look at the substantive argument further. (I didn't downvote anything, though.)

I'm not sure exactly where I'm going with this comment; I guess I'm trying to give you a sense of what may go on in the heads of people who reacted to this without writing anything. I guess the harsher intuitive feeling I'm talking around is something like "LW doesn't owe you anything; if you want to get positive reception, it's on you to figure out what kind of content the community appreciates and then create that".

Replies from: LVSN
comment by LVSN · 2023-03-06T12:55:14.050Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Actually I think we should be called LessWrong for a reason.

Replies from: sil-ver
comment by Rafael Harth (sil-ver) · 2023-03-06T13:56:30.920Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I'm not making a normative claim. The factual claim I'd make is that complex explanations detailing several factual reasons are a bad answer to "why did my post get downvoted" because most people most of the time don't put anywhere near that much thought into their votes. (I also think votes on LW are way more meaningful than anywhere else on the internet, but I don't see a contradiction.)

Replies from: LVSN
comment by LVSN · 2023-03-06T14:08:30.664Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

If people babble about why they downvoted, the babble will usually be related in some way even if it is imperfect. Also, your babble should be aligned with your sense of strategy rather than being arbitrary.

Replies from: sil-ver
comment by Rafael Harth (sil-ver) · 2023-03-06T14:59:30.712Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Also, your babble should be aligned with your sense of strategy

I don't agree. (I think? I'm not sure what you mean by strategy.) I think your comment should try to track what's actually going on, not what you want to be going on.

Also note that I was trying to give an impression of what the median response could be. (Which was itself not very well thought out, but that was the attempt.) And the people who take the time to comment have very likely put more thought into their vote than the median, so even if they represented their reasons accurately, it'd still be a distorted picture.

Replies from: LVSN
comment by LVSN · 2023-03-06T15:35:37.202Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think your comment should try to track what's actually going on, not what you want to be going on.

Well the latter is obviously more arbitrary (and less strategic) than the former; you do need a non-misleading map to behave strategically within the territory, and the world does not get the way humans want it to be by convincing each other that it is already that way, except for some rare self-fulfilling prophecies such as your group's collective belief in the ability to correct each other.

And the people who take the time to comment have very likely put more thought into their vote than the median, so even if they represented their reasons accurately, it'd still be a distorted picture.

A distorted picture of why it was downvoted? But if the karma is determined arbitrarily then it is questionably valuable apart from the subset which does respond.

Replies from: LVSN
comment by LVSN · 2023-03-06T18:47:24.064Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

On that note, I'd love to get more feedback on this shortform of mine, which I feel is very underrated and full of great potential:

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/MveJKzvogJBQYaR7C/lvsn-s-shortform?commentId=e2TtdTbj5zbaGkE5c [LW(p) · GW(p)]

comment by amelia (314159) · 2023-03-18T23:49:14.681Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

One (hopefully) final note: With respect to quantum mechanics, I believe a sort of bare-bones* “nested world interpretation” could explain wave function collapse just as well as the “many worlds interpretation” explains it. (A nested world interpretation would involve quantum behavior coming from the outer world, w/ classical physics behavior originating in, or innate to, this world.)

This belief probably does indeed make me a “crank.” The word “crank” was used by another LW user in a reply to my linked post. Based on the context, I think it was supposed to be a mildly  pejorative way of referring to someone with unconventional & unprovable ideas. 

I think that the “crank allegation” might have actually been correct, at least with respect to my thoughts on interpreting wave function collapse. Sorry for not recognizing that point earlier, and thanks for the discussion. It helped me to think about how my views fit in a larger social context. 

As mentioned before, I’ve turned off notifications on this thread, so I might not respond to follow-ups. My silence doesn’t imply an endorsement or rebuttal of anything. It just means I have some time constraints. 

--

*By “bare-bones,” I mean nothing that would arise to a simulation theory or any other embellished subset of nested world theories. It’s true that I love discussing the idea of “programmed worlds,” because such discussions engender an almost playful type of supra-universal thinking. However, while I wouldn’t bet money on a programmed world interpretation, I would go so far as to bet on a “no-strings-attached” nested world interpretation. 

comment by amelia (314159) · 2023-03-09T04:15:06.502Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

One of my books that has been referred to multiple times by others in this discussion is 

“Einstein Explained: Special and General Relativity for the Masses” (physics pun intended). 

I published it under my maiden name, which is Amy Louise Johnson. I created it in collaboration with my then-teenage sons. 


I didn't mention the book at all in my original post. Then I didn’t mention its title in the replies to the comments on the first post, the second post, or the initial replies to the comments on the second post. This is because I didn't want to use LessWrong for marketing the book. 

However, I decided to mention it now, along with its title, because of the suggestions that I’m not familiar with foundational physics and that I might be a "crank" author (which I think is meant to imply that I have radical or unproven ideas). If I finally just give people the title of the book, they can at least see previews of the pages on Amazon, and decide for themselves on whether I am a "crank" or have not yet learned foundational physics. If I do have radical or crazy ideas, I guess I would probably be the last to know anyway. 

I don't blame anyone for assuming I'm a "crank" author, or that I'm not familiar with foundational physics, because I initially didn't give any evidence to the contrary. Furthermore, I think I did a really poor job explaining my viewpoints in the initial post. 
 

Caveats about the book: 

-When the book was re-titled, it lost its reviews on Amazon, so I assume it doesn’t have any reviews at this moment. 

-The first draft of the book was originally all text w/ only a few diagrams. However based on advice that we should make the book more accessible and one-of-a-kind, we limited the text to the absolute necessities, and added the philosophical, Nietzsche-quoting cartoon dogs. I know it’s a little weird.

-I’m proud of the book being “for the masses” (“popsci” I guess). Frankly, I think it is actually more challenging to explain advanced concepts in a way anyone can understand, than it is to explain advanced concepts to people who already have a specialized vocabulary and expertise. It is even more challenging to explain the concepts simply, while also not sacrificing accuracy. I think we did a decent job in meeting the challenge, but people can judge for themselves, if from nothing other than the preview pages on Amazon. If we did make any mistakes, feedback would be greatly appreciated.   

-The book was converted from color to grayscale, and reformatted, and I think the result looks pretty bad.


-We received advice to use professional artwork for the cover, but I insisted on using my own drawing of a “cool Einstein.” That’s why the cover looks so unprofessional. The cover on the teens and tweens edition is also my own art.... genius....

---

This is my last comment I'll make on this thread, and I’ve turned off notifications on the thread. 

If I don’t respond to future comments, it’s not because I necessarily agree or disagree with them. It’s simply because I can’t afford to spend more time on this. I’ve already spent way too long, and I have other things I should have been doing. 

However, despite ending my involvement with this post and the linked one, I did find this discussion to be very productive (for me at least), and I learned a great deal from the feedback (such as how to explain myself better, the necessity of examples, and the importance of reading feedback in a realistic tone of voice, etc.) Thank you to everyone who gave feedback, good or bad, because it was all useful. Best wishes.....