[LINK] Ethical Pick-Up Artistry (Clarisse Thorn)

Ahh... that makes sense - It literally means "Without the Pick Up", but the joke implies removing the stinky elements. Both interpretations were intended, but the more important part (IMO) seems to have gotten lost.

Learns about memes

Indeed, thanks!

I recall that you and I had an exchange on this at some point (although I may be mistaking you for someone else). I'm not very familiar with the PUA literature, but in what little I've read the description of these non-pickup side benefits were one of the things that stimulated my thinking on this topic.

Could you point me to some (good) sources, or give your own thoughts on what is worth copying? I take your word that this is a popular topic, but the good bits of any body of knowledge can be hard to identify when you're an outsider.

I'd also be happy to chat in another forum (Skype, IRC, etc), if you prefer.

A note to that effect in the discussion post would seem appropriate.

That doesn't seem to be about generating new advice. Basically he proposes to take someone else's hard-won research, throw away the parts you don't like (with no way of knowing if these parts were important to the function), and repackage it as your own. I'm not sure you can get a superior product that way.

I did say 'more'.

I was going to say "Evidently you're not familiar with Athol Kay," but I don't know what you may or may not be familiar with, just as you probably don't know what jsalvatier is familiar with.

I think we would all agree that abusive behavior is bad, and can go on for a long time in a cursed, miserable relationship. Based on the information in his blog, Athol Kay (apparently his real name) is not in anything like an abusive relationship with his wife. To the contrary, it's all about mutual satisfaction and support in all the areas of a marriage or LTR.

jsvaltier said "more likely", not "guaranteed".

I mean, I understand that you're suggesting that men who don't use the approval of women as the core of their moral compass and the chief determinant of their behavior don't have any need for good pickup advice

Rather, the opening advice incidentally implies that they don't seek dating advice from a female authority figure that has selected and vetted subjected to her seal of approval.

"Mommy, how do I make girls like me?" just isn't a particularly good way to arrange the education of males and a feminist guide to dating for males is even more inappropriate. It makes so much more sense for 'feminism' to give advice for females. There isn't such an overwhelming conflict of interest with regards to agenda (which is not to say that the political agenda wouldn't interfere even with advice to females at times as well).

If anyone thinks otherwise, I challenge them to translate any of these guidelines into some specific instructions for action in a concrete situation that are both non-trivial and useful.

I agree with what you said about the advice being mostly 'deeply wise' and utterly useless or worse. But then you went and made a challenge. I was confident that I could take at least one of the guidelines and find it useful and potentially concrete purely by chance. 2 seemed to be the only candidate (and Skatche has already given a concrete translation.

Mind you Skatche's "MOST IMPORTANT POINT" about 1 is totally wrong. 1 is the worst of the guidelines given. The one that will directly damage the success and enjoyment of life of those that follow it.

4 - A lot of pick-up artistry seems to be focused on the bar/club scene. This might be a reasonable place to find a one-night stand, if you know the unspoken etiquette (I don't, so I can't comment); if this is what you're after, then best of luck to you. But clubs and bars are really terrible places to find anything longer-term: they're loud, they're crowded, everyone's drunk, and women in particular tend to have their guard up, as they're used to incessant unwanted advances. Also, under the assumption that most of the people here will want to find interesting, intelligent partners, just ask yourself what percentage of the general population actually fits this description, and with a bit of calculation I think you'll find the odds are against you.

How you find a more suitable environment depends a great deal on what your interests are and what kinds of people you relate to best, but basically you want to find a community of some sort. I DO NOT recommend joining a community just to pick people up (unless it's the swinger community or something like that) - see #6. However, if your social skills are especially poor, you might want to aim for a community that is especially accepting of social rejects. Geek communities and some hippie and anarchist communities are a reasonable bet; I'm sure there are others as well. Use this as a springboard; ideally you want to be a part of, or at least linked to, many communities. Attend interesting events and chat with people, and if you don't find any common ground for a conversation, then no loss; just move on.

Now, you don't want to go out looking for Bayesian statisticians and walk away from people who can't recite the Sequences. If you really want to understand what makes people tick, you should also make an effort to be interested in what they're interested in. This will promote cognitive flexibility and expand your conversational repertoire in addition to exposing you to broader walks of life. You might even discover opportunities to genuinely and concretely make the world a better place (big turn on!).

3 - Your goal, now, is to make friends and contacts, not lovers. If you're still keeping up that flirtation, sex will happen anyway, once in awhile, as if by accident. Unless you're insatiable, this should be enough to keep your sex drive satisfied. Some of it will be good, some of it won't be so good, and often it won't continue past the first few times. There's nothing wrong with this; you're learning in the process, both about what you like and don't like, and also about how to be a better lover (more on this later, see #1).

Here's where you want to start to be careful. It is an all-too-common mistake to commit to a relationship (monogamous or otherwise), or - far worse! - to assume you're in a relationship, after the first sexual encounter. You'll want to remain aware and responsive to your own feelings and to the signals you're getting from your partner; don't define things too soon, give it at least a month or two to see what it becomes. If you find you sleep with the same person several times and you start spending more time together, you'll probably want to have a discussion about your respective desires (more about this later). Proceed gently.

Part 3 incoming...

Okay. Challenge accepted.

6 - If you're hitting up PUA sites, it's probably because you've gone a long time without romantic involvement, and you're getting desperate. This is perfectly understandable: sex drive is deeply seated and can become overwhelming if it's not fulfilled. Unfortunately, at a certain point, people start to reify sex: it ceases to be about attraction to any one individual, but simply about "getting" sex from anyone who's just appealing enough.

Unfortunately, people are very perceptive, and if you're desperate, they'll notice. You might be able to pick up other desperate people this way, but unless you're exceptionally lucky, your relationship will be brief and unsatisfying. The truth is, good relationships are somewhat hard to come by, and we're assuming that what you want is a good relationship.

Just for added concreteness, let's explore some of the ways in which desperation for sex will screw you (pun intended). You'll appear overly eager; you'll be visibly nervous; you'll hit on everyone, including people who, if you weren't so desperate, you would realize are not appropriate for you and your circumstances (i.e. they're not your type, you're not their type, you have nothing in common, etc.). When they reject you, you'll feel even worse and more desperate, perpetuating the cycle.

So, your first task is to forget about getting sex. This is difficult, but doable. Use all that tension to fuel your pet projects, to go out and meet new people (men and women alike), just generally distract yourself. Hire an escort if necessary (just remember to treat them with basic respect and decency!). Meditate. Do primal scream therapy. Go on a crazy adventure. Whatever - just find something that takes your mind off sex and go for it. You'll find you're a lot happier for it.

5 - Still with me? Good. Now that you've got your sex drive under control, it's time to start flirting. Note: flirting, not seducing. Flirting is playful and casual and is never overtly (and sometimes not even remotely) sexual. As a rubric, you should be just as comfortable flirting with the gender you're not attracted to as with the one you are (if you're bi, then you should be comfortable flirting with your grandmother). Indeed, you should flirt with everyone - male, female, or otherwise. It helps you build important social skills, makes people want to be around you more, and helps you clue in to signs of attraction in others (trust me, you'll notice 'em eventually if you pay attention (and if you're neurotypical - I don't know enough about people on the autistic spectrum to comment, sorry)).

To give some idea of how flirtation works, the most common form of flirtation is humour: making ironic observations about current circumstances, obvious shit-talking, telling jokes (if you can pull them off well), etc. Stay positive; avoid really bitter humour, or follow up nastier observations with positive comments. Physical contact is another common one, but this is for skilled practitioners only - the slightest miscalculation can turn your friendly hand on their shoulder into creepy, unwanted touching. Third, you can ask people friendly questions about how they're doing, then either share their good mood or commiserate with their frustrations as appropriate.

Occasionally, flirtation does turn into making a date or even having sex. This is a delicate practice, involving a gradual escalation while maintaining plausible deniability. I don't suggest trying to initiate this at first; just learn to notice when it happens, and see if you can keep up the game. Again, this takes some practice, but if they're already hitting on you you're likely to get the benefit of the doubt for smaller mistakes. This is where the water metaphor becomes most crucial: the game works not by pushing, but by opening up and revealing interest in subtle ways: through body language, tone of voice, slightly sexual but still playful comments. With practice, you'll learn to recognize and accept these openings, as well as to offer your own in return.

To be continued in a bit...

2 - By now, if you've done as instructed, you should have a pretty interesting life. Nonetheless, I think it's worth exploring this in more detail. If there's one thing pick-up artists get right, it's the value of confidence; but it's important to remember that this doesn't mean dominance, aggressiveness, or surliness. Confidence means being comfortable in your own skin, remaining centred in a conversation, listening with calm interest but also having something interesting to say about yourself and about your projects, your passions, the adventures you've had. It means having a life of your own beyond the object of your affections, and being friendly and courteous but not too eager to please. And yeah, a bit of a teasing or arrogant streak doesn't hurt. Above all, though, you want to be self-reliant: keep your own shit together and you'll be more attractive.

1 - THIS IS THE MOST IMPORTANT POINT, not only for getting laid but also as a general principle: you must learn to communicate. Healthy communication is a very complex skill, and there's no simple formula; I may yet get around to writing a full post or two on the topic. Nevertheless, one way or another, you need to learn to be honest while still showing respect and courtesy, and you need to learn to inspire honesty in others. Try to foster this attitude in your broader community and everyone will benefit (this is how the communal house I live in still functions as well as it does, despite a number of difficult circumstances we've faced over time).

I do want to say a word about communication in the bedroom. Sex is an attempt to create a mutually enjoyable and fulfilling interaction of an intimate sort, and you simply can't do that without indicating, in some fashion, what you want and how you want it. A lot of this communication ends up being nonverbal, but you should learn to be comfortable voicing your desires. You'll also want to pay attention to what your partner wants, whether based on their vocalizations and body language or sometimes by asking questions: "Is that good?" rolls off the tongue nicely.

I should also say a word about consent. Body language and other implicit cues can only take you so far; before you hit the bedroom, you'd better make sure your partner is enthusiastic about the prospect, and that requires verbal communication. This can be a little awkward, but it becomes significantly less so with practice. Remember: this is YOUR responsibility. "I thought s/he seemed into it" or "They seemed to go along with it" is no excuse.

So there you have it: how to have a satisfying sex life - by extension of an otherwise satisfying life - in six monumental steps.

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This advice is horrible for anyone who is expected to initiate sex. Good luck doing that without any sort of goal-directness.

My impression is that two people who spend enough time together and are physically attracted to one another will tend to eventually have sex. It usually takes a lot of willpower for this not to be the case.