Digital People FAQ

post by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-13T15:24:11.350Z · LW · GW · 13 comments

Contents

  Table of contents for this FAQ
  Basics
    Basics of digital people
    I'm finding this hard to imagine. Can you use an analogy?
    Could digital people interact with the real world? For example, could a real-world company hire a digital person to work for it?
  Humans and digital people
    Could digital people be conscious? Could they deserve human rights?
      General points:
    Let's say you're wrong, and digital people couldn't be conscious. How would that affect your views about how they could change the world?
  Feasibility
    Are digital people possible?
    How soon could digital people be possible?
  Other questions
    I'm having trouble picturing a world of digital people - how the technology could be introduced, how they would interact with us, etc. Can you lay out a detailed scenario of what the transition from today's world to a world full of digital people might look like?
    Are digital people different from mind uploads?
    Would a digital copy of me be me?
    What other questions can I ask?
    Why does all of this matter?
None
13 comments

Audio also available by searching Stitcher, Spotify, Google Podcasts, etc. for "Cold Takes Audio"

This is a companion piece to Digital People Would Be An Even Bigger Deal [LW · GW], which is the third in a series of posts about the possibility that we are in the most important century for humanity [LW · GW].

This piece discusses basic questions about "digital people," e.g., extremely detailed, realistic computer simulations of specific people. This is a hypothetical (but, I believe, realistic) technology that could be key for a transition to a stable, galaxy-wide civilization [? · GW]. (The other piece [LW · GW] describes the consequences of such a technology; this piece focuses on basic questions about how it might work.)

It will be important to have this picture, because I'm going to argue that AI advances this century could quickly lead to digital people or similarly significant technology. The transformative potential of something like digital people, combined with how quickly AI could lead to it, form the case that we could be in the most important century.

This table (also in the other piece) serves as a summary of the two pieces together:

 Normal humansDigital people
Possible today (More [LW · GW])

 

Probably possible someday (More [LW · GW])
Can interact with the real world, do most jobs (More [LW · GW])
Conscious, should have human rights (More [LW · GW])
Easily duplicated, ala The Duplicator [? · GW] (More [LW · GW])
Can be run sped-up (More [LW · GW])
Can make "temporary copies" that run fast, then retire at slow speed (More [LW(p) · GW(p)])
Productivity and social science: could cause unprecedented economic growth, productivity, and knowledge of human nature and behavior (More [LW(p) · GW(p)])
Control of the environment: can have their experiences altered in any way (More [LW · GW])
Lock-in: could live in highly stable civilizations with no aging or death, and "digital resets" stopping certain changes (More [LW · GW])
Space expansion: can live comfortably anywhere computers can run, thus highly suitable for galaxy-wide expansion (More [LW · GW])
Good or bad? (More [LW · GW])Outside the scope of this pieceCould be very good or bad

Table of contents for this FAQ

Basics

Basics of digital people

To get the idea of digital people, imagine a computer simulation of a specific person, in a virtual environment. For example, a simulation of you that reacts to all "virtual events" (virtual hunger, virtual weather, a virtual computer with an inbox) just as you would.

The movie The Matrix gives a decent intuition for the idea with its fully-immersive virtual reality. But unlike the heroes of The Matrix, a digital person need not be connected to any physical person - they could exist as pure software.1 [LW(p) · GW(p)]

Like other software, digital people could be copied (ala The Duplicator [? · GW]) and run at different speeds. And their virtual environments wouldn't have to obey the rules of the real world - they could work however the environment designers wanted. These properties drive most of the consequences I talk about in the main piece.

I'm finding this hard to imagine. Can you use an analogy?

There isn't anything today that's much like a digital person, but to start approaching the idea, consider this simulated person:

That's legendary football player Jerry Rice, as portrayed in the video game Madden NFL 98. He probably represents the best anyone at that time (1997) could do to simulate the real Jerry Rice, in the context of a football game.

The idea is that this video game character runs, jumps, makes catches, drops the ball, and responds to tackles as closely as possible to how the real Jerry Rice would, in analogous situations. (At least, this is what he does when the video game player isn't explicitly controlling him.) The simulation is a very crude, simplified, limited-to-football-games version of real life.

Over the years, video games have advanced, and their simulations of Jerry Rice - as well as the rest of the players, the football field, etc. - have become more and more realistic:2 [LW(p) · GW(p)]

OK, the last one is a photo of the real Jerry Rice. But imagine that the video game designers kept making their Jerry Rice simulations more and more realistic and the game's universe more and more expansive,3 [LW(p) · GW(p)] to the point where their simulated Jerry Rice would give interviews to virtual reporters, joke around with his virtual children, file his virtual taxes, and do everything else exactly how the real Jerry Rice would.

In this case, the simulated Jerry Rice would have a mind that works just like the real Jerry Rice's. It would be a "digital person" version of Jerry Rice.

Now imagine that one could do the same for ~everyone, and you're imagining a world of digital people.

Could digital people interact with the real world? For example, could a real-world company hire a digital person to work for it?

Yes and yes.

Overall, it seems you could have the same relationship to a digital person that you can have to any person whom you never meet in the flesh.

Humans and digital people

Could digital people be conscious? Could they deserve human rights?

Say there is a detailed digital copy of you, sending/receiving signals to/from a virtual body in a virtual world. The digital person sends signals telling the virtual body to put their hand on a virtual stove. As a consequence, the digital person receives signals that correspond to their hand burning. The digital person processes these signals and sends further signals to their mouth to cry out "Ow!" and to their hand to jerk away from the virtual stove.

Does this digital person feel pain? Are they really "conscious" or "sentient" or "alive?" Relatedly, should we consider their experience of burning to be an unfortunate event, one we wish had been prevented so they wouldn't have to go through this?

This is a question not about physics or biology, but about philosophy. And a full answer is outside the scope of this piece.

I believe sufficiently detailed and accurate simulations of humans would be conscious, to the same degree and for the same reasons that humans are conscious.4 [LW(p) · GW(p)]

It's hard to put a probability on this when it's not totally clear what the statement even means, but I believe it is the best available conclusion given the state of academic philosophy of mind. I expect this view to be fairly common, though not universal, among philosophers of mind.5 [LW(p) · GW(p)]

I will give an abbreviated explanation for why, via a couple of thought experiments.

Thought experiment 1. Imagine one could somehow replace a neuron in my brain with a "digital neuron": an electrical device, made out of the same sorts of things today's computers are made out of instead of what my neurons are made out of, that recorded input from other neurons (perhaps using a camera to monitor the various signals they were sending) and sent output to them in exactly the same pattern as the old neuron.

If we did this, I wouldn't behave differently in any way, or have any way of "noticing" the difference.

Now imagine that one did the same to every other neuron in my brain, one by one - such that my brain ultimately contained only "digital neurons" connected to each other, receiving input signals from my eyes/ears/etc. and sending output signals to my arms/feet/etc. I would still not behave differently in any way, or have any way of "noticing."

As you swapped out all the neurons, I would not notice the vividness of my thoughts dimming. Reasoning: if I did notice the vividness of my thoughts dimming, the "noticing" would affect me in ways that could ultimately change my behavior. For example, I might remark on the vividness of my thoughts dimming. But we've already specified that nothing about the inputs and outputs of my brain change, which means nothing about my behavior could change.

Now imagine that one could remove the set of interconnected "digital neurons" from my head, and feed in similar input signals and output signals directly (instead of via my eyes/ears/etc.). This would be a digital version of me: a simulation of my brain, running on a computer. And at no point would I have noticed anything changing - no diminished consciousness, no muted feelings, etc.

Thought experiment 2. Imagine that I was talking with a digital copy of myself - an extremely detailed simulation of me that reacted to every situation just as I would.

If I asked my digital copy whether he's conscious, he would insist that he is (just as I would in response to the same question). If I explained and demonstrated his situation (e.g., that he's "virtual") and asked whether he still thinks he's conscious, he would continue to insist that he is (just as I would, if I went through the experience of being shown that I was being simulated on some computer - something my current observations can't rule out).

I doubt there's any argument that could ever convince my digital counterpart that he's not conscious. If a reasoning process that works just like mine, with access to all the same facts I have access to, is convinced of "digital-Holden is conscious," what rational basis could I have for thinking this is wrong?

General points:

For longer takes on this topic, see:

Let's say you're wrong, and digital people couldn't be conscious. How would that affect your views about how they could change the world?

Say we could make digital duplicates of today's humans, but they weren't conscious. In that case:

Feasibility

Are digital people possible?

They certainly aren't possible today. We have no idea how to create a piece of software that would "respond" to video and audio data (e.g., sending the same signals to talk, move, etc.) the way a particular human would.

We can't simply copy and simulate human brains, because relatively little is known about what the human brain does. Neuroscientists have very limited ability to make observations about it.8 [LW(p) · GW(p)] (We can do a pretty good job simulating some of the key inputs to the brain - cameras seem to capture images about as well as human eyes, and microphones seem to capture sound about as well as human ears.9 [LW(p) · GW(p)])

Digital people are a hypothetical technology, and we may one day discover that they are impossible. But to my knowledge, there isn't any current reason to believe they're impossible.

I personally would bet that they will eventually be possible - at least via mind uploading (scanning and simulating human brains).10 [LW(p) · GW(p)] I think it is a matter of (a) neuroscience advancing to the point where we can thoroughly observe and characterize the key details of what human brains are doing - potentially a very long road, but not an endless one; (b) writing software that simulates those key details; (c) running the software simulation on a computer; (d) providing a "good enough" virtual body and virtual environment, which could be quite simple (enabling e.g. talking, reading, and typing would go a long way).I'd guess that (a) is the hard part, and would guess that (c) could be done even on today's computer hardware.11 [LW(p) · GW(p)]

I won't elaborate on this in this piece, but might do so in the future if there's interest.

How soon could digital people be possible?

I don't think we have a good way of forecasting when neuroscientists will understand the brain well enough to get started on mind uploading - other than to say that we don't seem anywhere near this today.

The reason I think digital people could come in the next few decades is different: I think we could invent something else (mainly, advanced artificial intelligence) that dramatically speeds up scientific research. If that happens, we could see all sorts of new world-changing technologies emerge quickly - including digital people.

I also think that thinking about digital people helps form intuitions about just how productive and powerful advanced AI could be (I'll discuss this in a future piece).

Other questions

I'm having trouble picturing a world of digital people - how the technology could be introduced, how they would interact with us, etc. Can you lay out a detailed scenario of what the transition from today's world to a world full of digital people might look like?

I'll give one example of how things could go. It's skewed somewhat to the optimistic side so it doesn't immediately become dystopia. And it's skewed toward the "familiar" side: I don't explore all the potential radical consequences of digital people.

Nothing else in the piece depends on this story being accurate; the only goal is to make it a bit easier to picture this world and think about the motivations of the people in it.

So imagine that:

One day, a working mind uploading technology becomes available. For simplicity, let's assume that it is modestly priced from the beginning.7 [LW(p) · GW(p)] What this means: anyone who wants can have their brain scanned, creating a "digital copy" of themselves.

A few tens of thousands of people create "digital copies" of themselves. So there are now tens of thousands of digital people living in a simple virtual environment, consisting of simple office buildings, apartments and parks.

Initially, each digital person thinks just like some non-digital person they were copied from, although as time goes on, their life experiences and thinking styles diverge.

Each digital person gets to design their own "virtual body" that represents them in the environment. (This is a bit like choosing an avatar - the bodies need to be in a normal range of height, weight, strength, etc. but are pretty customizable.)

The computer server running all of the digital people, and the virtual environment they inhabit, is privately owned. However, thanks to prescient regulation, the digital people themselves are considered to be people with full legal rights (not property of their creators or of the server company). They make their own choices, subject to the law, and they have some basic initial protections, such as:

Digital people form professional and personal relationships with each other. They also form personal and professional relationships with biological humans, whom they communicate with via email, video chat, etc.

Some digital people fall in love and get married. A couple is able to "have children" by creating a new digital person whose mind is a hybrid of their two minds. Initially (subject to child abuse protections) they can decide how their child appears in the virtual environment, and even make some tweaks such as "When the child's brain sends a signal to poop, a rainbow comes out instead." The child gains rights as they age, as biological humans do.

Digital people are also allowed to copy themselves, as long as they are able to meet the requirements for new digital people (guarantee of being able to live for a reasonably long time, etc.) Copies have their own rights and don't owe anything to their creators.

The population of digital people grows, via people copying themselves and having children. Eventually (perhaps quickly, as discussed below), there are far more digital people than biological humans. Still, some digital people work for, employ or have personal relationships (via email, video chat, etc.) with biological humans.

So digital people are doing work, entertaining themselves, meeting each other, reproducing, etc. In these respects their lives have a fair amount in common with ours.

The prescient regulators have carved out ways for large groups of digital people to form their own virtual states and civilizations, which can set and change their own regulations.

Dystopian alternatives. A world of digital people could very quickly get dystopian if there were worse regulation, or no regulation. For example, imagine if the rule were "Whoever owns the server can run whatever they want on it." Then people might make digital copies of themselves that they ran experiments on, forced to do work, and even open-sourced, so that anyone running a server could make and abuse copies. This very short story (recommended, but chilling) gives a flavor for what that might be like.

There are other (more gradual) ways for a world of digital people to become dystopian, as outlined here [LW · GW] (unassailable authoritarianism) and in The Duplicator [? · GW] (people racing to make copies of each other and dominate the population).

And what are the biological humans up to? Throughout this section, I've talked about how the world would be for digital people, not for normal biological humans. I'm more focused on that, because I expect that digital people would quickly become most of the population, and I think we should care about them as much as we care about biological humans [LW · GW]. But if you're wondering what things would be like for biological humans, I'd expect that:

Are digital people different from mind uploads?

Mind uploading refers to simulating a human brain on a computer. (It is usually implied that this would not literally be an isolated brain, i.e., it would include some sort of virtual environment and body for the person being simulated, or perhaps they would be piloting a robot.)

A mind upload would be one form of digital person, and most of this piece could have been written about mind uploads. Mind uploads are the most easy-to-imagine version of digital people, and I focus on them when I talk about why I think digital people will someday be possible [LW · GW] and why they would be conscious like we are [LW · GW].

But I could also imagine a future of "digital people" that are not derived from copying human brains, or even all that similar to today's humans. I think it's reasonably likely that by the time digital people are possible (or pretty soon afterward), they will be quite different from today's humans.12 [LW(p) · GW(p)]

Most of this piece would apply to roughly any digital entities that (a) had moral value and human rights, like non-digital people; (b) could interact with their environments with equal (or greater) skill and ingenuity to today's people. With enough understanding of how (a) and (b) work, it could be possible to design digital people without imitating human brains.

I'll be referring to digital people a lot throughout this series [LW · GW] to indicate how radically different the future could be. I don't want to be read as saying that this would necessarily involve copying actual human brains.

Would a digital copy of me be me?

Say that someone scanned my brain and created a simulation of it on a computer: a digital copy of me. Would this count as "me"? Should I hope that this digital person has a good life, as much as I hope that for myself?

This is another philosophy question. My basic answer is "Sort of, but it doesn't really matter much." This piece is about how radically digital people could change the world; this doesn't depend on whether we identify with our own digital copies.

It does depend (somewhat) on whether digital people should be considered "full persons" in the sense that we care about them, want them to avoid bad experiences, etc. The section on consciousness is more relevant to this question.

What other questions can I ask?

So many more! E.g.: https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Analysis/BrainUploading

Why does all of this matter?

The piece that this is a companion for, Digital People Would Be An Even Bigger Deal [LW · GW], spells out a number of ways in which digital people could lead to a radically unfamiliar future.

Elsewhere in this series [LW · GW], I'm going to argue that AI advances this century could quickly lead to digital people or similarly significant technology. The transformative potential of something like digital people, combined with how quickly AI could lead to it, form the case that we could be in the most important century.

13 comments

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comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T19:30:04.973Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

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↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T22:38:00.163Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

5. According to the PhilPapers Surveys, 56.5% of philosophers endorse physicalism, vs. 27.1% who endorse non-physicalism and 16.4% "other." I expect the vast majority of philosophers who endorse physicalism to agree that a sufficiently detailed simulation of a human would be conscious. (My understanding is that biological naturalism is a fringe/unpopular position, and that physicalism + rejecting biological naturalism would imply believing that sufficiently detailed simulations of humans would be conscious.) I also expect that some philosophers who don't endorse physicalism would still believe that such simulations would be conscious (David Chalmers is an example - see The Conscious Mind). These expectations are just based on my impressions of the field. 

↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T22:37:36.935Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

6. From an email from a physicist friend: "I think a lot of people have the intuition that real neural activity, produced by real chemical reactions from real neurotransmitters, and real electrical activity that you can feel with your hand, somehow has some property that mere computer code can't have. But one of the overwhelming messages of modern physics has been that everything that exists -- particles, fields, atoms, etc, is best thought of in terms of information, and may simply *be* information. The universe may perhaps be best described as a mathematical abstraction. Chemical reactions don't come from some essential property of atoms but instead from subtle interactions between their valence electron shells. Electrons and protons aren't well-defined particles, but abstract clouds of probability mass. Even the concept of "particles" is misleading; what seems to actually exist is quantum fields which are the solutions of abstract mathematical equations, and some of whose states are labeled by humans as "1 particle" or "2 particles". To be a bit metaphorical, we are like tiny ripples on vast abstract mathematical waves, ripples whose patterns and dynamics happen to execute the information processing corresponding to what we call sentience. If you ask me our existence and the substrate we live on is already much weirder and more ephemeral than anything we might upload humans onto."

↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T19:30:32.440Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

12. I could also imagine a future in which the two key properties I list in the next paragraph - (a) moral value and human rights (b) human-level-or-above capabilities - were totally separated. That is, there could be a world full of (a) AIs with human-level-or-above capabilities, but no consciousness or moral value; (b) digital entities with moral value and conscious experience, but very few skills compared to AIs and even compared to today's people. Most of what I say in this piece about a world of "digital people" would apply to such a world; in this case you could sort of think of a "digital people" as "teams" of AIs and morally-valuable-but-low-skill entities.

↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T22:41:25.196Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

1. The agents ("bad guys") are more like digital people. In fact, one extensively copies himself.

↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T22:39:21.075Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

2. These are all taken from this video, except for the last one.

↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T22:38:47.588Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

3. Football video games have already expanded to simulate offseason tradings, signings and setting ticket prices.

↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T22:38:35.028Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

4. It's also possible there could be conscious "digital people" who did not resemble today's humans, but I won't go into that here - I'll just focus on the concrete example of "digital people" that are virtual versions of humans. 

↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T22:36:08.715Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

7. I actually expect it would start off very expensive, but become cheaper very quickly due to a productivity explosion, discussed below.

↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T22:35:46.118Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

8. For an illustration of this, see this report: How much computational power does it take to match the human brain? (Particularly the Uncertainty in neuroscience section.) Even estimating how many meaningful operations the human brain performs is, today, very difficult and fraught - let alone characterizing what those operations are.

↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T22:35:07.416Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

9. This statement is based on my understanding of conventional wisdom plus the fact that recorded video and audio often seems quite realistic, implying that the camera/microphone didn't fail to record much important information about its source.

↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T22:34:39.595Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

10. This is assuming technology continues to advance, the species doesn't go extinct, etc.

↑ comment by HoldenKarnofsky · 2021-09-12T22:34:25.267Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

11. This report concludes that a computer costing ~$10,000 today has enough computational power (10^14 FLOP/s, a measure of computational power) to be within 1/10 of the author's best guess at what it would take to replicate the input-output behavior of a human brain (10^15 FLOP/s). If we take the author's high-end estimate rather than best guess, it is about 10 million times as much computation (10^22 FLOP/s), which would presumably cost $1 trillion today - probably too high to be worth it, but computing is still getting cheaper. It's possible that replicating the input-output behavior alone wouldn't be enough detail to attain "consciousness," though I'd guess it would be, and either way it would be sufficient for the productivity [LW(p) · GW(p)] and social science [LW · GW] consequences. ↩