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The weed thing is not true. It can sap your motivation acutely, and perhaps even have a more sustained (if definitely temporary) effect. But it certainly doesn't ruin your life by instantly "knocking your motivational system off balance".
in fact, never use an inhaled or injected recreational drug, period - the fast uptake is extremely dangerous and will likely actually knock your motivation system off balance hard enough to probably ruin your life.
I don't think this can be remotely justified by the evidence, formal or anecdotal. Inhaling weed isn't dangerous, let alone extremely so, and will almost certainly not ruin anyone's life, as the hundreds of millions of happy users can attest (get yours today!) Hell, shisha is an inhaled recreational drug!
I'm not sure it makes sense to generalise about an entire method of delivery, when all sorts of substances with very different effects can be consumed that way.
By what mechanism could natural selection have optimised our diets? Why should we expect long-tenured features of our diet to be necessarily healthy? We have consumed alcohol since long before we were modern humans, as one obvious counter-example to this sort of argument.
I think much of this is quite unreasonable (and some very unreasonable- you "don't like that I spoke as spoke as an authority on her life" because I wondered if what she observed was truly attributable to a causal effect?!), but I don't see the value in going over it, especially as others have made the points I would make about your tone and framing elsewhere. I continue to find your contributions on this topic a little more combative and "soldier mindset" than is ideal, but clearly you strongly disagree. (Although it's tempting to suggest that your admittedly "angry" and "unfair" reply, several times longer than your eventual response to the object level question, is evidence for the prosecution, not to mention that it somewhat calls into question your primary 'it's too much work' defence for ignoring substantive criticisms such as Chen's in the first place.) I don't see the point in continuing to argue about whose team is more rational, in any case; all I wanted was your response to Chen's objections to help inform my new dietary choices (something which, again, you concluded was worth dozens of hours and tens of thousands of dollars when multiplied by six, a matter of months ago).
With all that in mind, I have a few follow-up questions to your object-level response, but I will understand if you choose to ignore them, given that you don't seem to enjoy or value the interaction and I'm finding it lower value than I'd hoped, myself.
I do not believe that Cade Metz used specialized hacking equipment to reveal Scott's last name
I said "specialist journalist/hacker skills".
I don't think it's at all true that anyone could find out Scott's true identity as easily as putting a key in a lock, and I think that analogy clearly misleads vs the hacker one, because the journalist did use his demonstrably non-ubiquitous skills to find out the truth and then broadcast it to everyone else. To me the phone hacking analogy is much closer, but if we must use a lock-based one, it's more like a lockpick who picks a (perhaps not hugely difficult) lock and then jams it so anyone else can enter. Still very morally wrong, I think most would agree.
I didn't, thanks! I'm a fairly long-time visitor but sporadic-at-best commenter here, primarily because I feel I can learn much more than I can contribute (present case included).
I'd love to know why you think it's weak. As I mentioned before, it doesn't seem any more than suggestive to me (and to be fair Chen acknowledges as much), but it does seem quite suggestive, and it has introduced a hint of doubt in me.
I get the sense that I've gotten your back up slightly here, which is perhaps not without justification as I admit to having been a touch suspicious of your ignoring the comment and then coming across as a touch uncooperative when I pointed it out. Especially in the context of having noticed, long before converting to veganism myself, that your posts and engagement in subsequent comments struck me as being, in emphasis, framing and tone, somewhat adversarial to veganism.
But I'm well aware that I am probably excessively sensitive to that, having been astonished at the irrationality and extremity of the opposition to veganism online since I converted and before. I'm not sure there's a single moral/political issue where the epistemic and discursive standards are so low (not confined to the omnivores by any means, although it doesn't seem symmetrical to me either). On reflection that has probably clouded my impression (and I notice that I was completely wrong to claim Chen's was the only upvoted comment you ignored, a claim I've struck above). So I want to explicitly withdraw any implied criticism, and simply reiterate my interest in your assessment, as someone with relevant knowledge of and engagement with these nutritional questions. You have previously (thanks again for the tip!) defended the value of expending significant resources on potentially preventing iron deficiency in some proportion of six vegans; for much less than a sixth of that same cost you could at least get one to be much more motivated to address potential iron deficiency. I'd be very grateful, although I'm sure you have other demands on your time.
it is hard to write a NYT article
Clearly. But if you can't do it without resorting to deliberately misleading rhetorical sleights to imply something you believe to be true, the correct response is not to.
Or, more realistically, if you can't substantiate a particular claim with any supporting facts, due to the limitations of the form, you shouldn't include it nor insinuate it indirectly, especially if it's hugely inflammatory. If you simply cannot fit in the "receipts" needed to substantiate a claim (which seems implausible anyway), as a journalist you should omit that claim. If there isn't space for the evidence, there isn't space for the accusation.
Scott thinks very highly of Murray and agrees with him on race/IQ.
This is very much not what he's actually said on the topic, which I've quoted in another reply to you. Could you please support that claim with evidence from Scott's writings? And then could you consider that by doing so, you have already done more thorough journalism on this question than Cade Metz did before publishing an incredibly inflammatory claim on it in perhaps the world's most influential newspaper?
This is reaching Cade Metz levels of slippery justification.
He doesn't make the accusation super explicit, but (a) people here would be angrier if he did, not less angry
How is this relevant? As Elizabeth says, it would be more honest and epistemically helpful if he made an explicit accusation. People here might well be angry about that, but a) that's not relevant to what is right and b) that's because, as you admit, that accusation could not be substantiated. So how is it acceptable to indirectly insinuate that accusation instead?
(Also c), I think you're mistaken in that prediction).
(b) that might actually pose legal issues for the NYT (I'm not a lawyer).
Relatedly, if you cannot outright make a claim because it is potentially libellous, you shouldn't use vague insinuation to imply it to your massive and largely-unfamiliar-with-the-topic audience.
However, Scott has no possible gripe here.
You have yourself outlined several possible gripes. I'd have a gripe with someone dishonestly implying an enormously inflammatory accusation to their massive audience without any evidence for it, even if it were secretly true (which I still think you need to do more work to establish).
I think there are multiple further points to be made about why it's unacceptable, outside of the dark side epistemology angle above. Here's Scott's direct response to exactly your accuastion, that despite Metz having been dishonest in his accusation, he does truly believe what Metz implied:
This is far enough from my field that I would usually defer to expert consensus, but all the studies I can find which try to assess expert consensus seem crazy. A while ago, I freaked out upon finding a study that seemed to show most expert scientists in the field agreed with Murray's thesis in 1987 - about three times as many said the gap was due to a combination of genetics and environment as said it was just environment. Then I freaked out again when I found another study (here is the most recent version, from 2020) showing basically the same thing (about four times as many say it’s a combination of genetics and environment compared to just environment). I can't find any expert surveys giving the expected result that they all agree this is dumb and definitely 100% environment and we can move on (I'd be very relieved if anybody could find those, or if they could explain why the ones I found were fake studies or fake experts or a biased sample, or explain how I'm misreading them or that they otherwise shouldn't be trusted. If you have thoughts on this, please send me an email). I've vacillated back and forth on how to think about this question so many times, and right now my personal probability estimate is "I am still freaking out about this, go away go away go away". And I understand I have at least two potentially irresolveable biases on this question: one, I'm a white person in a country with a long history of promoting white supremacy; and two, if I lean in favor then everyone will hate me, and use it as a bludgeon against anyone I have ever associated with, and I will die alone in a ditch and maybe deserve it. So the best I can do is try to route around this issue when considering important questions. This is sometimes hard, but the basic principle is that I'm far less sure of any of it than I am sure that all human beings are morally equal and deserve to have a good life and get treated with respect regardless of academic achievement.
I sort of agree that it's quite plausible to infer from this that he does believe there are some between-group average differences that are genetic in origin. But I think it allows Scott several gripes with the Metz' dishonest characterisation:
- First of all, this is already significantly different, more careful and qualified than what Metz implied, and that's after we read into it more than what Scott actually said. Does that count as "aligning yourself"?
- Relatedly, even if Scott did truly believe exactly what Charles Murray does on this topic, which again I don't think we can fairly assume, he hasn't said that, and that's important. Secretly believing something is different from openly espousing it, and morally it can be much different if one believes that openly espousing it could lead to it being used in harmful ways (which from the above, Scott clearly does, even in the qualified form which he may or may not believe). Scott is going to some lengths and being very careful not to espouse it openly and without qualification, and clearly believes it would be harmful to do so, so it's clearly dishonest and misleading to suggest that he has "aligns himself" with Charles Murray on this topic. Again, this is even after granting the very shaky proposition that he secretly does align with Charles Murray, which I think we have established is a claim that cannot be substantiated.
- Further, Scott, unlike Charles Murray, is very emphatic about the fact that, whatever the answer to this question, this should not affect our thinking on important issues or our treatment of anyone. Is this important addendum not elided by the idea that he 'aligned himself' with Charles Murray? Would not that not be a legitimate "gripe"?
And in case you or Metz would argue that those sentiments post-date the article in question, here's an earlier Scott quote from 'In Favor of Civilisation':
Having joined liberal society, they can be sure that no matter what those researchers find, I and all of their new liberal-society buddies will fight tooth and nail against anyone who uses any tiny differences those researchers find to challenge the central liberal belief that everyone of every gender has basic human dignity. Any victory for me is going to be a victory for feminists as well; maybe not a perfect victory, but a heck of a lot better than what they have right now.
He's talking about feminism and banning research into between-gender differences, there, but it and many other of Scott's writings make it very clear that he supports equal treatment and moral consideration for all. Is this not an important detail for a journalist to include when making such an inflammatory insinuation, that could so easily be interpreted as implying the opposite?
Your position seems to amount to epistemic equivalent of 'yes, the trial was procedurally improper, and yes the prosecutor deceived the jury with misleading evidence, and no the charge can't actually be proven beyond a reasonable doubt- but he's probably guilty anyway, so what's the issue'. I think the issue is journalistic malpractice. Metz has deliberately misled his audience in order to malign Scott on a charge which you agree cannot be substantiated, because of his own ideological opposition (which he admits). To paraphrase the same SSC post quoted above, he has locked himself outside of the walled garden. And you are "Andrew Cord", arguing that we should all stop moaning because it's probably true anyway so the tactics are justified.
So despite it being "hard to substantiate", or to "find Scott saying" it, you think it's so certainly true that a journalist is justified in essentially lying in order to convey it to his audience?
Your argument rests on a false dichotomy. There are definitely other options than 'wanting to know truth for no reason at all' and 'wanting to know truth to support racist policies'. It is at least plausibly the case that beneficial, non-discriminatory policies could result from knowledge currently considered taboo. It could at least be relevant to other things and therefore useful to know!
What plausible benefit is there to knowing Scott's real name? What could it be relevant to?
It's almost the only comment you haven't replied to, aside from the downvoted ones at the bottom. Third one down if your comments are sorted by top scoring, which I assume is default? It's by Alex K. Chen.
It honestly seems kind of hard to miss, and cites some interesting suggestive evidence that low iron levels could actually be healthy, which is why I asked.
Not hugely important, but I want to point out because I think the concept is in the process of having its usefulness significantly diluted by overuse: that's not a straw man. That's just a false reason.
A straw man is when you refute an argument that your opponent didn't make, in order to make it look like you've refuted their actual argument.
One specific thing that I'd definitely have challenged is the 'I don't think the New Yorker article was very fair to my point of view'. What point of view, specifically, and how was it unfair? Again, very much easier from the comfort of my office than in live conversation with him, but I would have loved to see you pin him down on this.
I agree on the latter example, which is a particularly unhelpful one to use unless strictly necessary, and not really analogous here anyway.
But on the lock example, what is the substantive difference? His justification seems to be 'it was easy to do, so there's nothing wrong with doing it'. In fact, the only difference I detect makes the doxxing look much worse. Because he's saying 'it was easy for me to do, so there's nothing wrong with me doing it on behalf of the world'.
So while it's also heat-adding, on reflection I can't think of any real world example that fits better: wouldn't the same justification apply to the people who hack celebrities for their private photos and publicise them? Both could argue:
It was easy for me (with my specialist journalist/hacker skills) to access this intended-to-be-private information, so I see no problem with sharing it with the world, despite the strong, clearly expressed preference of its subject that I not do so.
This frankly enraged me. Good job on the directness of the opening question. I think you fell back a little quickly, and let him get away with quite a lot of hand-waving, where I would have tried to really nail him down on the details and challenge him to expand on those flimsy justifications. But that's very easy to say, and not so easy to do in the context of a live conversation.
Can I ask, a year later, why you didn't reply to the person who cited evidence that low iron is good?
Of the comments, that one seems by far the most productive for you to engage with, at least for me as an almost-zero-knowledge reader (and recently converted ethical vegan who is eager to mitigate any health tradeoff). But it's the only upvoted comment you haven't replied to! I'd be really interested in what you have to say about it.
If the the benefits persisted for two years after ceasing to take the iron, doesn't that suggest that iron wasn't actually the causal factor? Or am I missing something here?
How is death one of the least bad options? Can you expand on that?
Apologies, I just read your reply to Joseph C.
I would like to request the information, your reservations notwithstanding. I am happy to sign a liability waiver, or anything of that nature that would make you feel comfortable. I am also happy to share as much data as it is feasible to collect, and believe I could recruit at least some controls. As I mention above, I don't think I'll be able to implement the intervention in its entirety, given practical and resource constraints, but given your stated interest in a '1000 ships' approach this seems like it could be a positive for you.
Sorry if I've missed something about this elsewhere, but is it possible to explain what it involves to people who aren't going to properly do it?
I don't have 4+ hours a day to spare at the moment, nor $10k, but I'd love to know what the intervention involves so I can adopt as much of it as it is feasible to do (given it sounds like a multi-pronged intervention). Unless there's reason to think it only works as an all-or-nothing? Even just the supplements on their own sounds like they might be worth trying, otherwise.
Well it wouldn't be you then, would it?
I watch TV in a pretty focused way where I take things in.
But I wasn't suggesting you watch it like a TV show; just that's a similar time commitment (ie not an unreasonable one).
For the claim that people generally seem to have updated towards zoonotic origin as a result of the debate? No formal evidence, of course, but do you spend much time on LW/ACX/other rationalist internet spaces? It seems an unavoidable conclusion, if a difficult one to produce evidence of.
Only the other day there was a significant debate on /r/ssc about whether the emphatic win for the zoonotic side meant that we were logically compelled to update in that direction, due to conservation of evidence (I argued against that proposition, but I seemed to be in the minority).
Evaluating arguments is easier to do when they are done via text.
Isn't there a transcript? In any case, this seems to be highly subjective, and in my opinion not hugely relevant anyway. To extend the analogy, your expectation of someone's having read foundational texts before making strong claims would hardly be lessened by the objection that the texts were hard to read.
I don't think anyone has shown that the debate contains specific arguments that Roko is unfamiliar with.
Do we need to positively show that? As I mentioned, many intelligent, thoughtful people who were already very familiar with this question and its relevant facts updated significantly based on the debate. And Roko certainly hasn't explicitly addressed all of the arguments therein. Isn't that enough to suggest that he should at least watch it?
It's equivalent to watching a season of a TV show- is that really such an onerous requirement for making incredibly strong, potentially libellous claims about a contentious issue with serious real-world ramifications?
My source for that was Wikipedia, which in turn cites this article in the South China Morning Post:
Having now actually read the article, I didn't see the claim that it was the largest, so that may actually be made up.
But the article does make it clear that there was much more than seafood, with all sorts of animals including foxes, wolf cubs, snakes, hedgehogs, rats, frogs and palm civets.
The problem with "lab-leak is unlikely, look at this 17-hour debate" is that it is too short an argument, not a too long one.
It isn't an argument, it's a citation.
I don't think a 17 hour debate is "inaccessible" to someone who is invested in this issue and making extremely strong, potentially very seriously libellous claims without having investigated some of the central arguments on the question at hand.
A foundational text in some academic field might take 17 hours to read, but you would still expect someone to have read it before making a priori wild claims that contradicted the expert consensus of that field very radically. I don't think you'd take that person seriously at all if they hadn't, and would in fact consider it very irresponsible (and frankly idiotic) for them to even make the claims until they had.
That's not to say that this debate should be treated as foundational to the study of this question, exactly, but... well, as I said elsewhere:
This debate has been cited repeatedly in rationalist spaces, by people who were already quite engaged with the topic, familiar with the evidence, and in possession of carefully-formed views, as having been extremely valuable and informative, and having shifted their position significantly."
I think that makes familiarising yourself with those arguments (whether from the debate or another equivalent-or-better source) a prerequisite for making the kind of strong, confident claims Roko is making. At the moment, he's making those claims without the information necessary to be anywhere near as confident as he is.
How can an article be transphobic? How is it transphobic to argue that 'transgender ideology has contradictory premises'? I don't particularly think that it does, but that's a statement about an ideology- not about any person or group of persons.
This is fair, but as I said elsewhere:
I think what is missing here is that this debate has been cited repeatedly in rationalist spaces, by people who were already quite engaged with the topic, familiar with the evidence, and in possession of carefully-formed views, as having been extremely valuable and informative, and having shifted their position significantly. I think it's reasonable to expect someone to consume that information before claiming near-certainty on the question.
The arguments there seem like they have to be worth at least familiarising yourself with and considering before you claim as high a confidence as you are claiming (especially given that most people seem to have been swayed in the opposite direction to your claim).
In other words: yes, you have to select a finite subset to engage with, and I think there is good reason to include this debate within that subset.
That seems to generalize to "no-one is allowed to make any claim whatsoever without consuming all of the information in the world".
I would say that it generalises to 'one shouldn't make a confident proclamation of near-certainty without consuming what seems to be very relevant information to the truth of the claim'. Which I would agree with.
I think what is missing here is that this debate has been cited repeatedly in rationalist spaces, by people who were already quite engaged with the topic, familiar with the evidence, and in possession of carefully-formed views, as having been extremely valuable and informative, and having shifted their position significantly. I think it's reasonable to expect someone to consume that information before claiming near-certainty on the question.
Isn't the fact that it's the largest wet market in central China relevant here? Surely that greatly increases the chance of it travelling to Wuhan specifically in a zoonotic origin scenario, because animals are brought there from all around.
Your post appears to, by repeatedly emphasising the distance in the context of arguing that a zoonotic origin is unlikely.
What makes you think they could get the death penalty? In what jurisdiction, and consequent to what conviction? It doesn't seem likely that they would be convicted of murder if they were doing what was at the time considered normal science, surely, and while I suppose they could get a manslaughter or equivalent conviction via negligence, that wouldn't ever carry a sentence so severe.
> Reasonable norms of good debate suggest relevant counterarguments should be proportional in length and readability to the original argument, which in this case is Rokos compact nine-minute post.
This seems entirely *un*reasonable to me. Some arguments simply can't be properly made that concisely, and this principle seems to bias us towards finding snappy, simplistic explanations rather than true ones.
Someone else mentioned 'The Pyramid and the Garden', but I'm reminded of the sort of related argument about Atlantis in https://slatestarcodex.com/2016/11/16/you-are-still-crying-wolf/ : sometimes, boring reality and 'it's actually just a series of coincidences' requires a lot more explaining than a neat little conspiracy theory. Not to tar the lab leak hypothesis by calling it a conspiracy theory- while of course it literally is one, it doesn't deserve to be demeaned by the term's modern connotation of zany insane-person nonsense- but it is easy to see why 'these facts seems unlikely to be a coincidence' might be easier to argue concisely than its rebuttal, and a norm where the person that can state their argument more persuasively in shortform wins doesn't seem like one that's going to promote optimal truth-seeking.
I don't think someone should need to pay you thousands of dollars to engage with full arguments for and against a proposition before you claim near-certainty about it. It's just sort of a pre-requisite for having that kind of confidence in your belief, or having it be taken seriously. Perhaps particularly when you're not only disagreeing with the expert consensus, but calling that expertise into question because they disagree with you.
Wonderful writing! It's rare to see something written so beautifully without sacrificing rigour; often aesthetic and rigorous writing seem like different ends of a spectrum.
I'm not so sure you managed to avoid "major spoilers" for Grizzly Man, but nice subtle reference to the AI in woman's clothing film; got the point across while preserving the surprise for anyone who hasn't seen it. A fantastic film, and probably a major reason I'm more intuitively receptive to the concept of AI risk than most.
Just to maximally clarify, I didn't mean to suggest that the offer was itself inherently combative.
I certainly don't "see what I'm doing", because I wasn't trying to do anything other than explain why your engagement with STMT seemed combative and unfairly accusatory. It did, and it does, reading it later. I hope/suspect that with the advantage of the same temporal remove, you will also see exactly why I and many others thought so.
I don't believe this is true, at all. I don't believe any part of this is true, actually.
I don't think there is a nutritionist consensus. And I don't think that there is wide agreement, even, about a plant based diet being superior. And I don't think there's any way of reliably demonstrating how dietary modifications impact health. If there were, we wouldn't still need to be doing all these terrible studies in a desperate attempt to know anything at all.
If you can provide support for any of these assertions I'd be interested.
I don't think you're being cynical enough. Nutritional science is a science, technically, I guess, but it's one of the worst in terms of the quality of evidence it's practical to produce.
And there certainy is not as much consensus as you suggest- I don't agree that there's any at all on saturated fats.
It's unclear to me what would make diet advice "rationalist".
This probably just means 'put together by members of this community'. Which is reasonable, because this community often does a better job of taking rational, evidence based approaches to things than the world at large.
So you mean that you have a different thought in a given context than you have previously?
But of course, much else will have necessarily changed from previously. There are so many variables, and so much reason to suspect bias/placebo/any number of other self-deceptive influences. I just don't think you can identify the cause as confidently as you claim (although I'll concede some to your last sentence- that the more often this happens, the more justifiably you can attribute it to the intervention in question).
And as for the burden of proof- you not only made a claim, you used the word 'definitely'. Why wouldn't you have to support that claim? I feel like the whole concept of 'burden of proof' has become very counter-productive in internet discourse. Time spent arguing about who has the burden of proof would be much better spent on making arguments for our respective positions.
I'm not sure what is achieved by the tone of this piece. It's bordering on uncivil.
Especially since, as others comments have pointed out, you make more of your objections than is really warranted. There are some excellent points in there, but also some points where you needlessly exaggerated the difference between your beliefs.
Aren't we supposed to be learning together? Why the adversarial approach?
Thank you! How do I browse content tags in general?
How do I find more 'fact posts'? That's probably my favourite type of content here, and I clicked on the hyperlink hoping that it was a content tag and I could spend a few hours gorging!
My immediate objection is that I don't seem to catch myself any less over time- I catch myself plenty, I just don't do anything about it.
Just wanted to say I signed up for a trial on the strength of this pitch, so well done! It sounds like something that could be really useful for me.
I don't really expect people to be combative at all in this context, but I'll happily take you at your word and retract the comment.
No.
Well this isn't helpful! I was genuinely trying to understand what the point of the quoted statement is. In the context, it seemed like that was the most reasonable interpretation. If it isn't, then it'd be more productive to explain what you did mean.
I'm sorry that you feel misrepresented. For me, continuing to argue (in response to criticism or otherwise) that there is something wrong with STMT not taking the bet, and that their stated reason is insufficient, and making what read to me like implicit accusations of dishonesty, seems a lot like 'making combative noise'. It's quite an imprecise charge, though, and perhaps unhelpful of me to make.
Anyway, I certainly don't want to be making combative noise, and policing your tone isn't really adding anything to the (important) object-level discussion, so I'll beat a retreat.
Letting someone choose the criteria to a proposed bet maximizes the chances that they can come up with something fair.
True, but it's unclear to me how this relates to the parent. Is your implicit argument that because of this, refusing to take the bet does amount to a failure to stand by their beliefs? Because giving someone the fairest possible framework for a bet doesn't mean there can be no other objection to taking it, nor imply anything about their argument if they choose not to.
STMT's reason for doing so was very reasonable. We don't want them to want it to be true (any more than is inevitable). In fact, I would go so far as to argue that bets on predictions about the world should never involve any party actively investigating those claims, and you should be suspicious of any research from someone who is conflicted in this way.
And while you claim that their "failure" to bet you didn't play much of a role in anyone's argument, you sure do seem to be making a lot of fairly combative noise about it. Betting on predictions is can be a useful collaborative tool, but in this case it feels more like a weapon-and a deterrent to speculative investigation.