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There's certainly a lot of webcomics produced nowadays that explain concepts in an amusing and simple manner.
Has anyone had any experience with http://sundayassembly.com ?
I'd love to hear some first hand accounts. It sounds like all the things I enjoyed about going to church when I was a Christian, with the Christianity part.
thanks for the reply/message.
it looks like Sydney lacks a regular meetup at the moment.
Thanks for that. It's fascinating to get a glimpse of what rationality looks like in the real world rather than just online interchanges.
Note aside, I'm a big fan of your work. Reassures me to know rationalists are on the team for dota 2
bah I really want to get in on these, but I'd have to train it in from Ballarat!
Is it worth the effort? Who will attest?
I'm guessing this is one of Luke's ways of bringing some focus to the research of Rationality in the Academic world, and its significance to the LW community.
I hypothesize that he see's a gap there that needs more bridging.
(just my humble estimation)
If you send me your email I can send you a copy of a powerpoint I made a while back when I was running a short talk on Bayes Theorem.
most of it I got from here however:
http://commonsenseatheism.com/?p=13156
<3 lukeprog
I'll give this a quick go.
I'm Michael. I'm 24 and live in West Sydney. I'm in LW because I pretty much stalk Lukeprog. I'm an ex-christian, who got married way too young, but got lucky in that me and my wife have grown out of faith together and really come to a place where we really support each other in everything we want to do. I love learning and all subjects, but I'm not really an expert on anything, except maybe people, which is probably one of the best places to be an expert. I'm studying professional writing next year. I find communication fascinating, and like exploring ways to close inferential gaps between people. I'm a bit of a co-ordinator. I've hosted weekly discussions groups pertaining toward Rationality and Political issues, but I find that I'm still not disciplined enough to keep persevering in them. Soon I will be changing states, and moving to Ballarat, Victoria. I plan to start attending the Melbourne LW meet up when I do (come january). The good thing about this move is that it gives me and my wife a chance to re-invent ourselves without the expectations of our friends and family defining us. I like video games, and getting good at them, but this eats more time than it's worth, so I'm aiming to quit entirely (after Diablo 3). I'm a brilliant musician, but have never been able to take it too seriously, due to the industry being flooded already, but also by getting burned by a band that had the potential to go international but was saboutaged by immature members with drug addictions. Now I just use it as a form of therapy and creative expression.
I mostly lurk on LW, I personally don't have a lot to add to the conversation here, but I think once I start going to a meet-up there will be a lot I can contribute.
That'll do for now.
This is a great idea. the LW community has great content but lacks the personal connection that makes other communities so sucessful, and this addresses it directly. It's fascinating to see what people on this site are like, what 'types' it draws and keeps.
me too :)
I follow Luke around everywhere tbh.
I feel that this deserves greater celebration.
Hey Luke,
This is great to hear. What drew me to you and your works initially was your extraordinary ability to take concepts foreign to me and make them accessible, easy to understand and even enjoyable. It's good to see that you intend to capitalize on this talent, and I can't wait to see what more comes of it. That being said seeing how far you've come already in the past few years is mind-blowing.
You really make me want to do better. Thank you.
Alas I must cancel. important family gathering on that evening. Hope you get a good turn out
I'd love to come but we'll see.it's quite a trek for me.
"Irrationality offers all the things rationality does not: creativity, a sense of “magic”, ecstasy, revelation, cosmic awe, passion and pure psychic power"
i think you misunderstand what we mean by rationality. If we wanted these things, which most of us do, then it'd be rational to be irrational. using the words that way is just silly.
Thanks Kaj, That's some useful stuff.
Could you please direct me to your source, if you have one?
Hey Luke,
Thanks again for your work. You are by far the greatest online teacher I've ever come across (though I've never seen you teach face-to-face). you are concise, clear, direct, empathetic, extremely thorough, tactful and accessible. I am in awe of your abilities. You take the fruit that is at the top of the tree and gently place it into my straining arms! Sorry for the exuberant worship but I really want to express my gratitude for your efforts. They definitely aren't wasted on me.
Heavy questions for someone who merely wrote:
"This should be of interest to a few members of this forum"
To understand the potential for bias allows you to be cautious of it, which is good, but this type of critique can be counter-productive and a conversation killer. If a post as simple as this encounters this much scrutiny at initial submission, then we're going to have less and less contributions and discussion.
One of the big things about improving rationality is 'Getting Crap Done' and I think the problem is that for an online community wherein most of us are anonymous, there's not a lot on here to help us with that.
Now this site has helped me conceptualize and visualize in a way that I didn't realize was possible. It helped me to see things as they are, and how things could be. The problem is that whilst I'm flying ahead in terms of vision, I still sleep in and get to work late, I still play world of warcraft over going to the local toastmasters meetup, I still haven't opened up my online trading account.
It's like I know what to do, but in terms of generating the willpower and committment and motivation to do it, this site just becomes another of many shiny distractions. The thing is as an online community I'm not sure how much you could remedy that.
The Meetups however I think is possibly the best thing to come out of this site so far, as it has inspired me to start my own, which has come to great success, even after a somewhat rocky start, and provides a way for those who feel isolated to find a network of support.
Just my two humble cents.
It's hard to articulate all the benefits it's had in my life, but I'll name some that I've really noticed:
Self evaluation and development: Many of the posts on Bias and human behaviours have helped me understand myself as a very primal creature, and in distinguishing the difference between the rational logic in my head, and the very human part of me that exists in day-to-day, and because I have the tools to understand those subjective parts of me, I can essentially 'manipulate' myself for my own benefit. For example, Luke's article on The Good News of Situational Psychology helped me to understand how influenced I am by my situation, and that I need to pro-actively place myself in situations that will encourage me to make better decisions. Also the ability to be objective about myself and my emotions allows me to do a cost-benefit analysis on what parts of me need the most work.
Social interaction: Many of the same tools have given me a stronger understanding of humans as social creatures, with many similar behaviours and mannerisms as animals, and being able to see things in that light has allowed me to take advantage of these social norms, even in terms of encouraging positive behaviours in my friends and family, and optimizing our lives.
Those are the main two, but they sort of underly everything else that goes on in my life as well....
Yeah rationality has helped me realize just how foolish my workplace is.(how irrational it is, actually)
For me, motivation came from doing a cost-benefit analysis on what I do at work.
Firstly, I love most of my colleagues, so I don't want to let them down, so any work associated with them must meet or exceed their expectations and not harm them.
Secondly, I do what I commit to do, so integrity motivates me. That being said, doing extra tends to be wasted on those I do it for. So I don't. it's like 'bare minimum' but in the sense that I do the bare minimum, very well, because thats what I said I'd do. Extra mile stuff doesn't bring enough benefit to anyone to be worth doing.
So instead, when I find myself with more time on my hands than I know what to do with, i re-invest it in myself. Growing skills, namely in Office programs, email etc, because that also serves the company in that it improves my utility. Better than if I drew up a report that no one would read.
That analysis is updated as the nature of my job changes. Currently it remains there, although that is likely to change, as people have noticed my skillset improving, and the quality of the work that I do to meet expectations is of high quality.
anyway, just my two cents, if anyone finds that useful.
Please do this.
I'd love to be able to understand and harness this resource.
but then he had a baby :p
Forgive me if someone has already mentioned this but making sure your sleep space is a nothing else space helps a lot too.
For me, bedtime was a place for cognitive exercise, wherein I awoke my mind to all the things that required thought, generally speaking a poor idea when your trying to get your mind to slow down. Also now that I'm married it's a place for discussion and other enjoyable activities.
Ideally though, the Bed should be for sleep and sleep alone, no thinking, no reading, etc. If your thinking a lot or feel like reading, maybe do it at your desk until your feeling more drowsy.
Apparently it trains your body to instinctively think it's time for sleep if the environment provided for sleep is consistently exclusive. I have a friend who did this and managed such deep sleep that he could get by on 6 hours a day without need for naps or catch up days.
I have very little faith in the general population to take this threat seriously. I believe if salvation comes it will be from that small minority of those who always seek to move society forward, and covers for the rest of it's mistakes. I'm guessing some type of technological invention or discovery, with a few good powerful people manipulating the rest to embrace it. Even then though, the ramifications are more far-reaching and complicated than I can get my head around, so whilst I fear the consequences I still have very few strong opinions in the area. I will share one though: The people sticking their heads in the sand are morons.
I admire your enthusiasm and vision, but I think it needs to be tempered with some realism. What your trying to do is fantastic, but the unfortunately reality is that LW is ultimately an online interaction, and thus has certain limits that would severly impair an initiative such as this. To give you an idea here's my own personal hurdles in fully embracing this:
a) I already engage in face-to-face communities which whilst differnt to what you have described shares many similar values. Energy into this means less energy into them, and currently those groups reap the most reward.
b) to offer good advice to each other we need to know about each other. Whilst I can obtain huge amounts of useful advice from LW in terms of my own rationality, and how I can evanglize it, employ it etc. in terms of my actual day to day situation I can really rely on this place, for example: what should I do about Chris' depression? That's not to say I couldn't get any advice, but truly helpful stuff would be a bit beyond us because none of you know Chris.
c) If I were to devote more energy to a project such as this, it would be too the Less Wrong Sydney Meetup as posted on this site, as having face-to-face meetings and interactions has considerably more potential than something that would have too, for a long time remain online.
d) These values you can play out in day to day life without too much trouble.
I don't want to discourage you, on the contrary I think your desire to do something like this is wonderful, but we want you to be effective. I personally think a great place to start channeling this energy would your local LW Meetup if you have one, and if not, maybe make one. The NYC chapter I think is a great success story and shows the potential benefits of carrying through with your type of energy and enthusiasm.
I saw this talk not too long ago on their podcast and it got me quite excited. Most Ted talks I find enjoyable but I'm not such a fan of their drive for diversity for the sake of diversity. (You can get some pretty bizzare types) but this one in particular was exciting because she made something as fundamental to rationality as this interesting and highly accesible; essentially creating another gateway for the masses.
This is the type of thing that Less Wrong needs to get behind if we want the rationality movement to go forward. both depth and breadth are required.
I always feel sad when I hear about suicide. Wasted potential. But then I think about all wasted potential and suicide just becomes one of many very depressingly true things that I can't pretend away.
Goodybe Chris. At least your not hurting anymore. I'm not sure what to feel or even think about the rest of it.
It makes me want to go to sleep, and not mind so much if I wake up or not. Not in a depressed way. Just in a 'This-is-all-there-is' way. Guess I'll just try my best and enjoy it. Wouldn't be much else to do around here anyway :)
I'm trying to meet up fortnightly with some good friends in hopes of evangelizing rationality, although I'm finding that it's my fundamentals attitudes, transparency and willingness to lead by example that truly effects people. Means I have to push myself, that I have to take this as far as it can go, and not let the hurdles slow me down. It's hard to say the least. You have to be prepared to sacrifice, and push through the negativity. But it's worth it. Rationality is my life hack.
Good luck Andrew.
Should your relocation flukishly land you in Sydney, Australia, I will do what I can to help you!
But this is a very cool utilization of the LessWrong community. I'm excited to see how it goes.
tsuyoku naritai!
how do you pronounce this?
su-yo-coo nar-ee-tie?
I'm going to make it my warcry whenever I need to energize myself.
Oooo a fellow Wow-er.
I reference EJ quite often actually because I am far too lazy to work the stuff out for myself.
Has EJ thought of increasing scope to other games? (RIFT comes to mind) Increase it's capacity to become a centre of excellence for mathematical gaming? Or even turn the site into a more lucrative endeavour?
From what I've seen you've got a very resourceful community at your disposal here. Much potential for you to utilize.
This does look like a feasible and safe option. Will investigate.
Thanks James.
Seriously considering an Index Fund.
Also do you have any thoughts to share regarding the ethical ramifications of investing? I'm just concerned that I'd be making profits at the expense of others, and I don't want ignorance to be an excuse for that, but again I have no idea about economics so I'd love to hear from someone who knows what they're talkinga bout?
Hey Armok
Have you considered that there may be those who have very similar values as us here at Less Wrong, but rather champion them under a different banner than 'Rationality'?
I'm just thinking it might be worth widening your search, and scracth under the surface a bit more of what's around you to see if you can find any gold.
Short of that, send out a few transmissions in the local forums e.g. newspapers and their websites. and see if you can pick up any signals.
Thanks for all your hard work Luke.
Been following you for almost two years now, since your earlier days on CSA. I had a hunch you would be worth keeping an eye on, and look at you. And I'm sharing in all the benefits! Posts like this, are so well put-together, so accessible but so sophisticated and reliable. It's like an artform.
Keep it up. Your an inspiration.
Meta_ark I would've loved to come along, but I'm actually away that entire weekend.
Nice to see a Sydney meetup though and looking forward to attending in the future!
"It's been said that being half a rationalist is dangerous. How do you communicate enough rationality for it to not be dangerous? "
I think this is quite a hurdle. I struggle a lot when I think about how to get others to be more rational, or communicating ideas that people might only understand half of. The Sequences are great but they tend to build from the ground up, and so it's hard for them to seem relevant. Perhaps a reductive approach? So we try to begin with essays/tools/models that are more relevant to thought processes that the layman would regularly engage in, before asking them to then explore those thought processes.
I'd vote for starting a company.
The Corporate World is in dire need of companies that aren't evil, to both change the tone of the industry and to serve as an example to other companies. It just feels like for almost every company the bottom line is always the dollar, but it'd be nice if that stopped being the norm, and I think by running a company the way you'd want to you could contribute to that cause. (I am assuming your company wouldn't be evil)
Otherwise: Do 'em all at Once!
I agree.
I imagine almost anything would become interesting to me, if I knew that I was doing it with a bunch of (aspiring) rationalists.
"The largest effect in my life has been in fighting mental illness,"
Hey Armok,
I'd love to hear more details on this. Maybe do a post in discussion? Doesn't have to be elaborate or anything but I'm really curious.
NancyLebovitz's comment I think is highly relevant here.
I can only speak from my personal experience, but I've found than part of going through Less Wrong and understanding all the great stuff on this website, is understanding the type of creature I am. At this current moment, I am comparitively a very simple one. In terms of the singularity, and Friendly AI, they are miles from what I am, and I am not at a point where I can emotionally take on those causes. I can intellectual but the fact is the simple creature that I am doesn't comprehend those connections yet. I want to one day, but a Baby has to crawl before it can walk. Much of what I do provides me with satisfaction, joy, happiness. I don't even fully understand why. But what I do know, is that I need those emotions to not just function, but to improve, to continue the development of myself.
Maybe it might help to reduce yourself to that simple creature. Understand that for a baby to do math, it has to understand symbols. Maybe that what you understand intellectually, in terms of emotional function your not yet ready to deal with.
Just my two cents. sorry if I'm not as concise as I should be. I do hope the best for you though.
I saw it and had some similar reflections. Got me thinking about what a highly optimized rational man would look like.
It wasn't perfect by any standards but had some great cinematography and ideas flowing around. If you can forgive the gaping loopholes you'll enjoy the ride.
I'm in West Sydney actually. Not a lot of reason to travel out that way, but if you happen to find yourself there feel free to drop me a line.
I thought 'PERFECT' then I remembered I live half a world away.
Chances of a course by correspondence?
I've always thought going through a course with some of my friends would be a really good exercise.
Thank you so much for this post. This is absolute gold for someone like me.
I have only just recently begun a Less Wrong meet up group in Sydney, Australia, and have been scouring around for advice and prior models to go of and you pretty much just provided everything in one freaking awesome post!
What's really encouraging is that in doing comparisons I already see similar happening in my group. Firstly most of the attendants are very good friends of mine, to whom topics pertaining to rationality come up naturally at almost any occasion, their great fun to hang out with, and most have shown keen interest in a fortnightly Less Wrong meeting. It's really encouraging to receive some confirmation that what I'm doing does have this potential, and it's really good to have a precedent to give me some basic idea of what to expect.
I wish I could upvote twice!
I'm fortunate in that I have friends who are already quite into a lot of things that aren't too far from rationality as already is, who were previously part of a political discussion group I used to run, so it was easy for them to get on board with a new project.
As I said previously, I think the greatest challenge is making people understand the relevance of what we're studying and how it's directly applicable to everything they do. A lot of people tend to think it's beyond them, or not for them, or be somewhat dismissive, but once you start engaging them on a level they understand and get your passion across, the attitude changes can be really surprising.
Also keeping it humble simple and comprehensive.
Like I said to atucker though, it's still early days too and I'm no Eliezer, so I'll no doubt be adjusting and asking for lots of help as I go along. I think it's got a lot of potential though, and I'm really excited about doing my part in raising the sanity waterline.
I'm in Western Sydney, Australia.
will post my results as the group progresses, as i evaluate what works, what doesn't and seek advice from the LW community. still early days though.
Thanks for the interest.
Basically I think what the Less Wrong community is doing here is so fundamentally important to self-development that I thought it was worth sharing. I get frustrated enough at my own bias and irrationality, let alone that of others, that I thought it was worth trying to do something about it.
I found there was little I could offer to the LessWrong community, it's already chockers with brilliance, but the people who need this stuff most are those who are the least likely to find a site like this interesting.
So the way I though I'd best be able to contribute is by getting the good stuff here, and trying to make it appealing and accessible to the average person.
I've only just started. First evening had 6 attendants but I'm confident we could get double that number next time. Starting very slowly, and keeping it quite basic and humble. The biggest challenge I think is getting people to understand why Refining your rationality is exciting and important, and on board with that vision.
I echo luke's sentiments. Thanks Eliezer. www.Lesswrong.com is a resource that truly strikes at the heart of the matter.
Also: The Karma thing is a good way to prevent trolls and other less desirables from flooding the site with crap, plus find the more appreciated and higher contributors. I think it helps maintain the quality of discussion on this site.
My only problem is that I hate commenting unless I have something to add, which @ lesswrong.com is almost never (thanks to the diligence of the community here) but I need at least 2 points to bring up a topic in the dicussion board, where usually I just want to share how I'm using this site to encourage rationality in my local community, and also to ask if there are any Sydney, Australia meet ups.