Raemon's Deliberate (“Purposeful?”) Practice Club
post by Raemon, Elizabeth (pktechgirl), lynettebye, Alex_Altair · 2023-11-14T18:24:19.335Z · LW · GW · 11 commentsContents
Introduction Raemon Playing Downwell Lynette's Catching the Spark exercise Part 1: Articulating Stories Part 2: Squinting At Stories Cruxy: Measure changing decisions Part 3: Locating Fulcrum Experiences Part 4: Getting your eyes on High variance experiments None 11 comments
Introduction
So. I have a theory of feedbackloop-first rationality. [LW · GW]
It has a lot of parts. I think each part is promising on it's own, and I have a dream that they interconnect into something promising and powerful. I also have a standard, which is that you should be able to tell if it's helping.
One of those parts (I think/hope), is "the generalized skill of Deliberate Practice." That is, the meta skill of:
- Noticing that your goals are bottlenecked on some kind of skill (or skills).
- Figuring out what those specific skills are.
- Figuring out who can teach you those skills, or, how to teach them to yourself.
- Creating an explicit practice regime.
- Actually putting in the work to practice.
- Noticing when your practice isn't working, and figuring out how to troubleshoot your process.
I do not currently have this meta-skill. I am kind of betting that it exists, based on reading books like Peak, talking with Romeo Stevens, and reading stories like László Polgár who methodically taught his daughters chess.
I think I've made progress in the two months I've been working on it, but that progress hasn't translated into "I quickly gained multiple skills" yet, which is the standard I feel like I should set for "this is actually working well enough that other people should be paying attention."
I'm experimenting with using this my dialogue format for journaling my explorations here. I'm inviting a few people I know well to be top-level dialogue participants. Everyone else is welcome to follow along in the comments, and note down their own deliberate practice experiments.
This will include a mixture of high level theory, and day-to-day practice notes.
Raemon Playing Downwell
Lynette's Catching the Spark exercise
11 comments
Comments sorted by top scores.
comment by trevor (TrevorWiesinger) · 2023-11-25T03:47:37.959Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I'm predicting that much of the stuff that causes measurable cognitive improvement will be by the mechanism of making people spend less time on social media or otherwise dithering about on the internet.
e.g. something like 20% of the measured benefit from things like reading the Sequences, the CFAR handbook, singlemindedly playing a specific indie game, are from being the rare thing sufficient to shake people out of habits formed around the addictive gravity-well of the commercialized internet's click/scroll maximization.
People should not have "shower thoughts"; in the 90s and 2000s people would zone out and have "shower thoughts" while reading books, the extropy email list, and sometimes even watching TV.
Specifically, somewhere around a 20% chance that >30% of the benefit unexpectedly comes from this dynamic, and a 50% chance that 10-30% of the benefit unexpectedly comes from this dynamic.
If MIRI or CFAR or EA's extremophile ascetics were already successful at getting their best thinkers to consistently spend time thinking or pacing or writing on whiteboards/notes after work, instead of on the commercialized internet, that's a strong update against my hypothesis.
I already expect feedbackloopfirst rationality to cause substantial cognitive enhancement on its own. This problem is a confounding variable; the goal of the practice club is to find ways to amplify intelligence, but the experiments will show high measured effectiveness from things like singlemindedly playing a specific indie game or driving or taking long showers, even though the causal mechanism actually comes those things increasing the proportion of time a rationalist spends thinking at all, not increasing intelligence or mitigating intelligence-reducing feedback loops.
People need to already be spending 2+ hours a day distraction-free, in order to see if the results are coming from cognitive enhancement, rather than from distraction-removal like long showers or driving.
Replies from: lillybaeum↑ comment by lillybaeum · 2023-12-09T04:23:26.958Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Regarding 'shower thoughts' and 'distraction-removal' as far as its' relation to cell phones and youtube videos and other 'super fun' activities as one might call them, I definitely think that there's something there.
I've long had the thought that 'shower thoughts' are simply one of the rare times in a post-2015ish world that people actually have the opportunity to be bored. Being bored is important. It makes you pursue things other than endless youtube videos, video games, porn, etc. As well, showering and washing dishes and other 'boring' activities are meditative!
It's a common meme these days that people need to always watch something while they eat. Some people listen to podcasts while they shower. Some people use their phone at stoplights. All of this points to a tendency for people to fill every single empty space of any kind with content of some sort, and it really doesn't seem healthy for the human brain.
This is an interesting video I watched today while filling every single empty moment in my life with content like I'm being disparaging about, and it relates to the topic. The author describes a process by which you can actually do the sorts of things you want to do by making sure there isn't anything else in that block of time that's more fun / satisfying / engaging. If work is the most fun thing you're allowing yourself to do, then you're going to work. If you're locked in a room with a book and a cell phone, you're going to want to use the cell phone. If you just have a book, you're going to read the book. You can apply this principle to your entire life.
Sorry if this post seems a little chaotic, lots of thoughts and I didn't have the time or energy at the end of the day to link them together more coherently...
Replies from: TrevorWiesinger↑ comment by trevor (TrevorWiesinger) · 2023-12-09T17:06:18.332Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
This comment is potentially vastly better worded/explained than my original comment. I will probably be quoting it when describing this problem, and will make serious efforts to write more like this in the future.
Replies from: lillybaeum↑ comment by lillybaeum · 2023-12-09T20:06:26.645Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Thank you! That's very kind of you to say. I haven't spent a lot of time 'assimilating into LessWrong' so I sometimes worry that I come off as ignorant or uninformed when I post, it's nice to hear that you think I made some sense.
comment by faul_sname · 2023-11-15T00:18:04.984Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
What I find most confusing is... I feel like there's some kind of conservation of damage I take. I've gained little subtle bits of skill over the past month-and-a-half. I'm confident that I now have the ability to jump between two monsters that are coming at me from slightly different angles, where before I would have just had no ability to escape. I'm confident that I've learned how to "not accidentally jump" (I used to be very trigger-happy with the jump/bullet button, such that I'd accidentally jump up into a monster right above me).
But I kept... seeming to reach level 4 with roughly the same variation in "how much damage I took".
Really dumb question, but Downwell definitely does not do dynamic game difficulty balancing, right?
Replies from: Raemon↑ comment by Raemon · 2023-11-15T01:47:01.809Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I don't think so.
My current best guess of what's going on is a mix of:
- It's actually fairly cognitively demanding for me to play at my peak. When I do beat level 3 with full health, I typically feel like my brain just overclocked itself. So I think during normal play, I start out playing "medium hard", and if I notice that I'm losing I start burning more cylinders or something. And if I start off playing quite hard, I get kinda tired by level 3.
- But also, there's a survivorship bias of "sometimes if I've taken damage I just give up and start over", which may mean I'm forming an incorrect impression of how well I'd have done.
comment by interstice · 2023-11-14T22:12:03.645Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
For Downwell, have you tried Floaty mode? I found it made the game a lot easier/less frustrating. Especially when you're trying to rack up bigger combos -- and doing so as much as possible is IMO essential given how sparse upgrades/health/money are.
comment by lillybaeum · 2023-12-09T04:14:15.597Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I recently wrote a Question about learning that lacked a lot of polish but poked at a few of the ideas discussed here. I haven't had time just now to read the entire post but I plan to come back to it and comb through it to try to shore up the ideas I have about learning right now. I'm also reading Ultralearning which is interesting although a little popsci. I find all this stuff really interesting because I've been having a lot of trouble learning things lately, feeling like my brain just isn't working like it used to since I got covid. I've tried programming probably 5-6 times in the past in my life and I'm giving it another go now, hoping it can stick this time.
Also, regarding Downwell: Try playing without ever jumping, just falling. Fall on enemies that are bounce-able without ever jumping or shooting and see how deep you can get. You can get pretty far this way!
comment by Stephen Fowler (LosPolloFowler) · 2023-11-24T01:35:36.191Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
When you say you were practising Downwell for the course of a month, how many hours was this in total?
Replies from: Raemoncomment by Tricular (mikolajkniejski) · 2024-02-09T23:19:38.608Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Try taking one level at a time and pausing between levels. You might just get frustrated and getting some freshness will help