UBI for President

post by Jacobian · 2018-10-18T15:09:08.463Z · score: 41 (23 votes) · LW · GW · 14 comments

Contents

  UBI and the Labor Automation Tsunami
  What UBI Buys
  UBI and Work
  Putanumonit Endorses Yang 2020
14 comments

Cross posted, as always, from Putanumonit.

Epistemic status: I am not an economist, and neither is Andrew Yang. On the other hand, it's not like the experts are brimming with great solutions to the problems discussed herein, or are united in consensus on the main issues.


Andrew Yang is running for president in 2020 on a platform of Universal Basic Income. Last week I got a chance to hear from Andrew directly and ask him a few questions about it. I came away cautiously optimistic about trying UBI (up from cautiously neutral), and massively impressed by Andrew Yang (up from not having heard of him). It’s time to talk about UBI, and it’s time to pay attention to Yang 2020.

UBI and the Labor Automation Tsunami

Yang lays out the case for urgent UBI on Sam Harris’ podcast, in an interview with Quillette, and in great detail in his book, The War on Normal People. I’ll try do justice to the idea with a brief summary.

Who is “the median American“? It is a person without a college degree, without much of a support network, and without $500 to spare in case of an emergency. She works in retail (4.3 million jobs) or a call center (2.5 million). He’s a fast food worker (3.7 million) or a truck driver (3.5 million). These millions of jobs are being automated today and will keep being so in the immediate future, along with warehouse workers, accountants, and radiologists.

Millions of Americans are about to meet the fate of the 2 million or so construction workers who lost their jobs after the financial crisis. What are those 2 million up to? In short: idleness, video games, Oxycontin, loneliness, despair. As their numbers swell, and McKinsey predicts that 15% of all jobs [1]. will be displaced by automation by 2030, this cheerful list may grow to include crime and rioting. What solutions are American politicians offering to this looming crisis?

Trump blames the cheating foreigners, even though the number of Americans who benefit economically from trade (roughly all of them) swamps the number of American workers who lose their job as a result of trade (a mere 90,000 a year). Bernie blames Amazon and Walmart, the two companies that besides providing massive consumer surplus are also the employer-of-last-resort to more than 2 million low-skilled American workers. Other politicians mumble about “retraining”, but current government retraining programs are both tiny and inefficient. There is no viable plan to scale them to millions of workers, and no reason to expect that they will work.

By and large, the mainstream position on labor force automation among US politicians is to ignore it. The worse the problem gets, the stronger the desire to ignore it [LW · GW] grows.

Andrew Yang’s solution is to provide every adult American citizen with $1,000 a month, no strings attached. This will be paid for by a combination of a consumption tax (like a 10% VAT), reduction in other welfare payment (one can receive UBI xor existing welfare), and “additional revenues from economic growth”. I personally think that the latter is shorthand for “more taxes”, ideally, of the Georgist variety.

Here’s what Yang says will happen when every American gets $12k a year guaranteed:

Here a couple of outcomes that I worry may happen when every American gets $12k a year guaranteed:

I asked Andrew about both points, and the extent of our disagreement seems to lie in different general models of economics and human behavior.

What UBI Buys

Andrew and I both noticed that Americans spend a lot of their income on housing, healthcare, and education – henceforth, HH&E. But we have different answers to why this is the case.

From what I gathered, Andrew’s basic model is that Americans spend a lot of money on HH&E because they (HH&E) are expensive. Under this assumption, if Americans had extra money they could then afford to spend it on other things that will make them happier. Andrew’s policy platform contains a lot of ideas to make HH&E cheaper. For example, regulating the ratio of administrators to students at universities, or single-payer healthcare with flat salaries rather than pay-per-service for doctors. With the extra income, Americans will get more and better services.

My model is that Americans spend a lot of money on HH&E because they (Americans) are rich. Under this assumption, if Americans had extra money HH&E would increase in price to absorb any extra disposable income. This is a somewhat counterintuitive model, and it is built of the following components:

  1. For measuring how much money people have to spend, Actual Individual Consumption(AIC) is vastly better than measures like GDP per capita.
  2. Going by AIC, Americans are way richer than the rest of the world – about 50% richer than most developed areas like Europe and Japan.
  3. Most Americans can afford a full suite of goods whose supply is not constrained: food, clothing, electronics, transportation, etc.
  4. Not every American can afford the expensive items in the above categories: organic quinoa, designer jeans, the latest iPhone, a new car. The difference between those and the versions affordable to every American: rice, H&M jeans, Nokia 2, a 2008 Toyota is almost entirely a difference of signaling, not of quality.
  5. Really, all Americans should read my guide to buying things smartly.
  6. HH&E all have their supply constrained in one way or another by the government: the number of houses built, the number of hospitals in a city and number of doctors credentialed, the number of accredited schools and teachers.
  7. HH&E is getting more expensive without getting better. Apartments in San Francisco, healthcare outcomes, skills acquired in school – none of them have improved much in the last few decades but all have multiplied in price.
  8. HH&E involves a huge amount of zero-sum signaling.
  9. Here’s a thorough analysis showing that US Healthcare costs are adequately explained by American’s extra AIC, and we should expect healthcare to be less of a zero-sum signaling competition than houses and schools. Especially schools.

Bringing it all together: the majority of Americans have more money than it takes to cover one’s non-HH&E needs. Whatever money is left over is spent by rich Americans on competing for a limited supply of nice neighborhoods, prestigious schools, impressive healthcare. The cost disease trickles down: if Columbia university can hire 1,000 administrators and charge $240,000 for a four-year degree that teaches few useful skills, lower ranked schools can also get away with more bloat, higher tuition, and less education. Rising rents in San Francisco push housing prices up 80 miles away in Gilroy.

So: a $1,000/month UBI will probably increase the disposable income of most Americans, at the expense of the top 10-20%% who will pay a lot more in extra taxes. Giving money to the very poorest Americans will enable them to buy better food, clothes etc. But the extra money given to everyone else, which will be the majority of UBI, will go to landlords, school administrators, healthcare providers, and local monopolies – all without increasing the quality of HH&E services provided one bit.

Undoubtedly, both Andrew’s model and mine are simplistic, incomplete, and imprecise. Neither of us is dogmatically committed to either view, the true answer certainly lies somewhere in the middle, or even to the side. But on the margin, my model makes UBI sound a lot less attractive than it would be otherwise.

UBI and Work

Andrew Yang, citing the Roosevelt Institute think tank, claims UBI will increase the number of working Americans by 4 million. Unfortunately, that’s not what the Roosevelt Institute says: they actually put the number at 1.1 million [2], and even that is based on a macro model rather than on observed evidence.

The observed evidence is mixed, and very little of it is obviously relevant to basic income that is permanent, universal, and implemented in a giant and rich nation. Putanumonit raised thousands of dollars for a basic income project in Kenya, but that was designed to help Kenyans. The fact that a Kenyan starts working after getting UBI because he can afford a wheelbarrow to cart supplies doesn’t mean that an American truck driver who lost his supply-carting job to a robot will use UBI to find alternative employment.

Andrew’s story goes something like this: after losing his job, the truck driver is stuck. He doesn’t have spare money for training or relocation, and going on welfare limits his ability to move and try things, especially if it’s disability welfare. With UBI he could afford to move to a big city, pay rent and vocational school training for a few months, and reinvent himself as a plumber or A/C repairman or stripper.

My story goes something like this: people work because they need money. If they need money less, they will work less. I’ll have to see a lot of evidence to contradict this simple story. Andrew himself agreed that for most people who drop out of the labor force, UBI will not pull them back in.

But as I wrote a couple of years ago: this is not a decisive argument against UBI. Working hours are f="http://benjaminrosshoffman.com/costs-are-not-benefits/">not a benefit to be maximized, they’re a cost. John Maynard Keynes famously predicted that we would all work at most 15 hours a week. He made that prediction shortly before working himself to death. But the reason we don’t work 15 hours a week is the weird equilibrium we’re in of what is valued by society.

Humans don’t intrinsically value “hours worked”. We value things like status, sex, community, pleasure. In modern society, we learned to associate a lot of this with work and consumption. This is especially true of men, which is why men left out of the work-consumption cycle fall into greater despondency than women.

Here’s Andrew:

I will say that if you dig into the data, you find that men and women experience idleness differently. […] The data shows that women who are out of work get involved in the community and go back to school and do things that are quite productive and pro-social. Whereas, men who are out of work spend 75 percent of their time on the computer playing videogames and surfing porn—and then tend to devolve into substance abuse and self-destructive behaviors. Men who are out of work volunteer less than employed men, even though they have more time.

Putting on the cynical evolutionary psychology hat I borrowed from Geoffrey Miller, I would guess that unemployed men volunteer less because volunteering doesn’t get them respected or laid. That’s the ultimate reason men do things (don’t ask me how it goes with blogging).

But putting on my optimistic evo-psych hat I notice that 20,000 years ago Homo sapiensmales competed for sex and status by telling stories, or seeing who can throw a rock farthest, or painting hands on the walls of a cave. This can probably be approximated today by playing basketball or backgammon with your buddies, or by competing for karma on a Dunbar-sized subreddit. If we stop denigrating people who do this, their lives may not be so miserable. I think that a lot of the “substance abuse and self-destructive behaviors” follow not from playing video games, but from feeling guilty and shamed over playing video games. A safety net of social respect can be as important as a safety net of cash.

Of course, if everyone played The Witcher 3 all day there would be no one to develop The Witcher 4: Witcherer than Ever. Society needs people to be productive to grow and prosper. But not everyone can be equally productive.

The median truck driver is 49, high school-educated, and has few skills other than driving a truck. It seems somewhat arbitrary to blame him (truckers are 94% male) for not guessing 25 years ago that trucking will get automated before whatever other jobs he may have chosen. The US has massive reserves of productivity and growth in the millions of skilled immigrants who would come given the chance, and in preparing the next generation for a 21st-century economy. As one of the former planning to have some of the latter, I can afford to pay for some trucker-wireheading.

Bottom line: I’m not very optimistic about UBI as a panacea for those left behind by automation, but I think it’s probably worth the experiment. Despite the potential benefits, no other country seems willing to take up the gauntlet. Americans can afford it, and it’s not certain that we can afford to continue ignoring the problem of labor automation.

Putanumonit Endorses Yang 2020

Ironically, I found almost everything else about Andrew Yang more impressive than his defense of UBI.

Yang struck me as thoughtful, curious, and humble, and yet with enough charisma to not let those three traits entirely submarine his political prospects. He’s a second-generation immigrant with no whiff of identity politics. His background is in social entrepreneurship: he created and sold an education company, then founded a non-profit that creates jobs in cities like Cleveland and Pittsburgh.

More important than Andrew’s personality and street cred are his politics. Yang is liberal but pro-business and skeptical of government’s ability to do many things well aside from cutting checks and passing simple regulations.  The 71 non-UBI points on Yang’s policy platform can be described as “the most sensible thing that can squeeze inside the Democrat Party Overton window, erring on the side of caution and incrementalism”.

And Yang has a plan – to get into the national spotlight by sneaking up on Iowa.

The long tortuous process of American presidential elections starts with the Iowa caucuses. “Caucus” means that instead of just casting a vote, Iowans have to gather somewhere and yell at each other for a few hours; last time out only 170,000 people bothered showing up. This means that 30,000 votes or so may be enough for a top 2 or top 3 finish, hopefully sparking a positive cascade of media coverage and popularity.

In Andrew’s words: “Any time 50 Iowans gather in a room and speak the words ‘Basic Income’, I appear in a puff of smoke to tell them about it.” The message is well received in a purple state with an economy based on manufacturing and agriculture.

Will this strategy work? Most people you know will almost certainly not become the president, and that is probably true of Andrew Yang as well. And yet, Yang got an avowed political passivist fired up about his candidacy enough to write 3,000 words about it and encourage all of you to spread the word. I do this for two reasons.

The first comes from Eliezer Yudkowsky, who asked us to Stop Voting for Nincompoops [LW · GW].

I seriously think the best thing you can do about the situation, as a voter, is stop trying to be clever.  Don’t try to vote for someone you don’t really like, because you think your vote is more likely to make a difference that way.  Don’t fret about “electability”.  Don’t try to predict and outwit other voters.  Don’t treat it as a horse race.  Don’t worry about “wasting your vote” – it always sends a message, you may as well make it a true message.
Remember that this is not the ancestral environment, and that you won’t die if you aren’t on the winning side.  Remember that the threat that voters as a class hold against politicians as a class is more important to democracy than your fights with other voters.  Forget all the “game theory” that doesn’t take future incentives into account; real game theory is further-sighted, and besides, if you’re going to look at it that way, you might as well stay home.  When you try to be clever, you usually end up playing the Politicians’ game.
Clear your mind of distractions…
And stop voting for nincompoops.
If you vote for nincompoops, for whatever clever-sounding reason, don’t be surprised that out of 300 million people you get nincompoops in office.
The arguments are long, but the voting strategy they imply is simple:  Stop trying to be clever, just don’t vote for nincompoops.
Oh – and if you’re going to vote at all, vote in the primary.

In my years in the US, I have seen several dozen presidential candidates. I think that Andrew Yang is the first one that isn’t a nincompoop.

The second reason comes from Milton Friedman (who, by the way, made the case for a form of UBI 50 years ago).

Only a crisis – actual or perceived – produces real change. When that crisis occurs, the actions that are taken depend on the ideas that are lying around. That, I believe, is our basic function: to develop alternatives to existing policies, to keep them alive and available until the politically impossible becomes the politically inevitable.

This I believe is Andrew Yang’s basic function: to keep the ideas of UBI and sensible Democrat-tolerable economic policy alive and available for when the crisis comes. Even if Yang doesn’t make it all the way to the White House, there is probably no better way to get his ideas out there. And with the crisis of automation and unemployment coming sooner rather than later, we are going to need those ideas.


[1] Yang’s website states that: “The smartest people in the world now predict that a third of all working Americans will lose their job to automation in the next 12 years.” Yang also mentioned the number of displaced jobs as 30% on Sam’s podcast, and said that he got this figure from the McKinsey report on the future of work.

However, the report only estimates the number of jobs that are potentially replaceable, and gives a range of 0-30% with 15% being the median estimate.

[2] I found this report by the Roosevelt Institute modeling the macroeconomic impact of UBI. Table 3 shows the potential labor force increase under various UBI scenarios. The relevant scenario is number 12: $1,000 a month funded by increased taxes. The estimated impact of scenario number 12 is an increase of 1.11 million jobs. 4 million extra jobs will only be added if UBI comes entirely from deficit spending.

I didn’t expect that when writing a column in praise of Andrew Yang I’ll end up calling him out for misreporting numbers, but the priorities of Putanumonit are clear: truth in numbers first, politics fifty seventh.

14 comments

Comments sorted by top scores.

comment by Viliam · 2018-10-18T21:20:55.306Z · score: 16 (8 votes) · LW · GW
But the reason we don’t work 15 hours a week is the weird equilibrium we’re in of what is valued by society.
Humans don’t intrinsically value “hours worked”. We value things like status, sex, community, pleasure. In modern society, we learned to associate a lot of this with work and consumption. This is especially true of men, which is why men left out of the work-consumption cycle fall into greater despondency than women.

For me, it is none of that. Ten years ago, when I was single and childless, I could have easily lived on 50% of my income. My status would be the same, and I would have more time to spend on things like sex, community, and pleasure. The problem was completely different, namely... signaling, when looking for a job.

When almost everyone works 40 hours a week, you signal conformity (one of the main traits employers are looking for) by working 40 hours a week. Working 40 hours is normal, wanting to work any other number of hours is weird. Why would anyone hire a weird person, when they have an option to hire a perfectly normal person instead?

How exactly are you going to explain, during the job interview, why the option good enough for everyone else is not good enough for you? "You know, I work to live; I don't live to work. I do have dreams beyond working hard to make someone else rich; and I value things that don't require much money, but require time, such as watching sunset or doing math. I already suspect that on my deathbed I will regret not spending more time following my dreams, but I still need to pay my bills today somehow, and none of my hobbies is profitable, at least in short term. Half of my market salary could cover my expenses; and I don't see a reason to spend at job any more time than necessary. So, what benefits does your company offer?" ...is probably not going to win hearts.

Sometimes you have a socially acceptable excuse for not working full time: you can be a student, or disabled, or a woman with kindergarten-age children. In other words, you would like to work 40 hours just like everyone else, but unfortunately you can't, as everyone can see. When someone offers a part-time job, something like this is what they have in mind. None of that applied to me. When I explored my chances to get a part-time job, I found out that I would have to sacrifice a disproportionate part of my income. The best offer I got was working 4 days a week, i.e. 80% of the usual time, for 50% of my usual salary. And the employer still felt like they were doing me a huge favor by accommodating my weird desire for having more free time. Seeing that I can't get the time down to 50% as I wanted, I gave up and returned to 40 hours a week.

tl;dr -- working 40 hours a week is a conformity-signaling equilibrium, and it is difficult to get a job otherwise

comment by gjm · 2018-10-21T02:07:46.748Z · score: 4 (2 votes) · LW · GW

It seems like almost everything you've described has an alternative description that isn't about conformity-signalling: employers want employees who are willing to do a lot of work, and if right from the outset you say "I would like to work fewer hours than normal" you are identifying yourself as someone who may not be willing to do a lot of work. So it's not signalling conformity so much as it's signalling buy-in to the company's goals, or submissiveness, or workaholism, or something like that -- and obviously employees who are eager to do a lot of work are more valuable (all else being equal) than employees who aren't. (Which is exactly why that little "work to live, not live to work" speech won't win their hearts.)

comment by Viliam · 2018-11-05T22:18:58.833Z · score: 2 (1 votes) · LW · GW

Yeah, could be any of that.

I guess a part of my objection still remains... that unlike the article suggests "human value consumption, which is why they choose to work a lot" it is sometimes more about "employers prefer employees who work a lot (why exactly, that is debated), and in such case employees are only given the options to work a lot or not get the job, with no middle ground".

comment by clone of saturn · 2018-10-21T03:55:42.261Z · score: 1 (1 votes) · LW · GW

If this is about knowledge work, there's also the problem that each new employee introduces large fixed communication overhead -- imagine instead of hiring one employee to work 40 hours a week, you hired 40 employees to work 1 hour a week. Most likely nothing at all would ever get done.

comment by ryan_b · 2018-10-19T18:13:28.404Z · score: 7 (3 votes) · LW · GW
My story goes something like this: people work because they need money. If they need money less, they will work less. I’ll have to see a lot of evidence to contradict this simple story. Andrew himself agreed that for most people who drop out of the labor force, UBI will not pull them back in.

I have always considered this a unilateral good of the proposal, for employers and consumers.

Employing people is hard [LW · GW], and people who just don't show up or walk off halfway through the shift without saying a word is a perpetual problem, even after sorting through hundreds of resumes. If all the people who don't want to work at all drop out, that means fewer resumes to sort through and probably also means higher quality applicants. It seems like an information advantage to businesses, which is a big deal as information is the hardest part about business.

From the consumer side, interacting with people who really don't want to be there really sucks. I don't like patronizing places that treat people poorly, and there is always the problem of the indifferent or negligent employee who screws up my order or damages my merchandise or whatever. I would prefer working with lower-stress, less-desperate people whenever possible.

comment by MakoYass · 2018-10-20T22:12:42.350Z · score: 1 (1 votes) · LW · GW

Another way this might help employers: There's a possibility that having a social safety net like this will reduce the incentive for a person who has found themself in a bullshit job to defend that bullshit job's existence, which may lead to lower rates of bureaucratic parasitism?

comment by Regex · 2018-10-18T23:32:51.460Z · score: 5 (4 votes) · LW · GW

~300,000,000 US citizens.

$1,000/month/person = 12,000 $/year/person

$12,000*300,000,000 = $3,600,000,000,000/year = 3.6 trillion dollars a year

For reference, the United States takes in a little over 6 trillion dollars a year in taxes.

comment by Raemon · 2018-10-18T23:39:58.054Z · score: 7 (5 votes) · LW · GW

Most proposals I've heard of use a graduated income tax to pay for the UBI. This essentially means that people making more than X don't actually get a UBI. (Or rather, they receive $1000, but they also paid $1000 in taxes for it, so it's a wash).

How expensive this is depends on what value of X you pick.

The advantage of this over the status quo is avoidance of welfare cliffs and generally reduced accounting by not making people prove that they're poor.

comment by Regex · 2018-10-19T02:49:18.775Z · score: 3 (1 votes) · LW · GW

I do agree that a graduated UBI (negative income tax) would be cleaner than the current welfare system. A smooth gradient out instead of a sharp cut in benefits. The incentives would align substantially for people seeking to escape the poverty trap.

A major issue for me when I think of this is the incentives for increasing the amount until it is unsustainable. Being able to vote yourself more money is... well. A ticket towards candidates promising to give people more money out of the pockets of others.

This would incentivize brain drain as well as immigration of people in dire straits. It would also incentivize a population boom since people would no longer worry as much about being able to support their family. This in turn makes the problem worse.

Although this applies to any kind of welfare. So it may be strictly easier legally to end the old programs and start on this one. The savings from no longer dealing with red tape, frustration, and bootstrapping from meagre resources may actually be sufficient to counterbalance these negative effects.

I do wonder on the effect of various UBI schemes on people's productivity and life choices.

comment by shminux · 2018-10-20T23:16:56.682Z · score: 4 (2 votes) · LW · GW

The US is a poor place to perform another UBI/negaive income tax experiment. It is large, diverse and extremely polarized, with a patchwork of federal, state and local regulations, taxes, surcharges, incentives, grants and so on. Americans can't even get rid of the penny, a total no-brainer. And the US overall is quite behind the curve in terms of technology, politics, religion, healthcare access... Maybe another wealthy enough country can do it for a decade or two first.

comment by ESRogs · 2019-03-17T21:14:37.347Z · score: 2 (1 votes) · LW · GW

This same candidate (whom the markets currently give a 5% chance of being the Democratic nominee) also wants to create a cabinet-level position to monitor emerging technology, especially AI:


Advances in automation and Artificial Intelligence (AI) hold the potential to bring about new levels of prosperity humans have never seen. They also hold the potential to disrupt our economies, ruin lives throughout several generations, and, if experts such as Stephen Hawking and Elon Musk are to be believed, destroy humanity.

...

As President, I will…
* Create a new executive department – the Department of Technology – to work with private industry and Congressional leaders to monitor technological developments, assess risks, and create new guidance. The new Department would be based in Silicon Valley and would initially be focused on Artificial Intelligence.
* Create a new Cabinet-level position of Secretary of Technology who will be tasked with leading the new Department.
* Create a public-private partnership between leading tech firms and experts within government to identify emerging threats and suggest ways to mitigate those threats while maximizing the benefit of technological innovation to society.

https://www.yang2020.com/policies/regulating-ai-emerging-technologies/

comment by ESRogs · 2019-03-17T21:15:21.215Z · score: 2 (1 votes) · LW · GW
Just had a call with Nick Bostrom who schooled me on AI issues of the future. We have a lot of work to do.

https://twitter.com/andrewyangvfa/status/1103352317221445634

comment by ESRogs · 2019-02-18T00:51:49.464Z · score: 2 (1 votes) · LW · GW

Great long-form interview with Andrew Yang here: Joe Rogan Experience #1245 - Andrew Yang.

comment by totallybogus · 2018-10-21T22:04:43.281Z · score: -5 (4 votes) · LW · GW

12k $ per year UBI and socialized healthcare? I'm sorry, but this cannot possibly work - the taxes required to pay for both would be a huge disincentive to individual effort. Make it more like 6k $ per year plus a mandatory healthcare component (to be placed in an individual HSA, as per the Singaporean model) and it starts to look like a workable idea. Giving everyone money for doing nothing turns out to be really, really expensive, so the less you do it, the better. Who'd have thunk it?