comment by Raven ·
2020-07-02T16:42:17.498Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Thank you! I just thought that using same word "fellows" in consequent sentences will sound ugly. It is usual for children to call a friend anyone they share experience with. And no, i don't think that Harry will be able to befriend with any pupil which parent he have killed, no matter if they know he did it or no. Moreover, i don't think that Harry can be friend for anyone among students of Hogwarts taking into account all the secrets that he keeps. Also, obliviating of friends is not cool, so i'm not sure Harry even knows what it means to be a friend to someone.
Yeah, on second thought I think you're right. He already had a hard time interacting with them before the ending; now I imagine the gulf will be too wide to overcome. But I do support him telling Draco -- the choice was either tell draco + obliviation or keep it a secret. Harry also went to extraordinary lengths to bring Hermione back, when everyone else, even Quirrel, told him he should move on. That's the kind of friend I want in my life.
This related to all quotes of Voldemort. What made you think that he's telling truth? Would he tell Harry that resurrected Hermione will cause trouble if he knew it? What plans Voldemort had for Harry and Hermione if his plan worked out? Maybe his plan was to force Harry to kill people, to taste the blood and become evil himself. And then to feel the loneliness that dark mage felt before becoming really dark.
I don't get it. Why would indestructible Hermione would serve as restraint on Harry? Would restrain him from doing what? Does Harry ever tried to destroy her?
Most of the quotes I posted were in Parseltongue, which is established later as being impossible to lie in (Harry tests it). Voldemort also explained that his plan was to turn Harry to be a second Dark Lord so Voldemort would have someone to play Civilization against. But he abandoned that plan after killing Hermione, because he heard a prophecy (narrated to us in the Defense Professor interlude):
Unseen by anyone, the Defense Professor’s lips curved up in a thin smile. Despite its little ups and downs, on the whole this had been a surprisingly good day— “He is here. The one who will tear apart the very stars in heaven. He is here. He is the end of the world.”
Later in the graveyard to Harry, in Parseltongue:
When girl-child died, wass in company of sschool'ss Sseer, heard prophecy sspoken that you would become force of vasst desstruction. You would become threat beyond imagination, beyond apocalypsse. That iss why I went to ssuch lengthss to undo my killing of girl-child, keep it undone.
He freaked out because the last prophecy saw him end up in horcruxes for ten years. He decided he had to stop Harry, because otherwise he would "end" the world. The most likely interpretation is a transhumanist one, but Voldemort doesn't realize that and thinks Harry will just kill everyone and destroy everything. Voldemort's evil, but he doesn't want that.
So he decides to rez Hermione, reasoning that Harry would be less likely to destroy the world if she's in it, because he's obsessed with getting her back. His initial plan to create a second Dark Lord is discard because saving the world is too important.
The exact wording of the Vow Voldemort forces on Harry:
"I vow...” Harry said. His voice shook, but he spoke. “That I shall not... by any act of mine... destroy the world... I shall take no chances... in not destroying the world... if my hand is forced... I may take the course... of lesser destruction over greater destruction... unless it seems to me that this Vow itself... leads to the world’s end... and the friend... in whom I have confided honestly... agrees that this is so. By my own free will...
And she was eaten by troll before she was able to become hero, due to lack of power, knowledge and experience. Yet, when she obtained enough powers to conquer the world she clearly stated that she is deffinately don't want to become a hero because she's just a human (which is obvious lies, she's not a human anymore)
Hermione doesn't have world-conquering powers; her magic is still that of a first year; and she's not invulnerable. Troll regeneration is weak to acid and fire iirc, never mind stuff like Harry's acid transfiguration or a Killing Curse. She doesn't know about the Horcrux either. Her claim that she's just a human isn't a lie; she's mentally a human with a transhuman body. I also took both the human and not a hero claims as less factual statements, and more signals that she doesn't think she's above everyone else. Which is totally reasonable, given that Harry (the hero) consistently acts like he's above everyone else.
So your reasoning are the words of Voldemort, right? Souls are not real, yet ghosts are real, magic is real, troll powers imbued into someone's resurrected body is real... there are some contradictions and puns. Maybe all these concepts have something on common? So, before we say that souls aren't real and ghosts are real, we should define what is soul and what is ghost and are there really any difference.
Ghosts definitely aren't souls. They're partial copies of a mind imprinted on the surroundings -- this is implied with this Voldemort (Parseltongue) quote:
Ssudden death ssometimes makess ghosst, if magic burssts and imprintss on nearby thing.
I thought maybe when You-Know-Who died right next to you, he happened to give off the burst of magic that makes a ghost, and some of it imprinted on your brain instead of the floor.
Implying that ghosts aren't really people (talking to Quirrel about the basilisk, this is Harry's thoughts not Quirrel's):
Powerful wizardries couldn’t be transmitted through books or ghosts
Draco says Muggles don't leave ghosts behind because they have no souls, but Draco's an obviously unreliable source of information. Plus, the ghost-as-magic-imprint hypothesis is compatible with Muggles not leaving ghosts.
Early in Dumbledore's office, Harry talks about ghosts and says that Hermione said they're afterimages. Dumbledore tries to defend his position but is unable to provide anything even resembling proof. Voldemort later says that if he thought there was an afterlife, he would have left the world. I don't think that was in Parseltongue but I believe him; Voldemort consistently displays a weary contempt and disgust for the world.
This is me theorizing, but I think that HPMOR takes the stance that there are no souls, but there's lots of misinformation. When your body dies, your mind dies with it. Hermione got around that because Harry froze her body. The original Horcrux just made a copy of your mind-state, why do that if souls are real? Voldemort's super-horcrux creates a better backup, but it's not really a "soul". Destroy the horcrux and he's gone forever.
comment by wizzwizz4 ·
2020-07-02T18:41:58.988Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Implying that ghosts aren't really people
Or were just exempted from protection from the Interdict of Merlin, like books.
comment by Raven ·
2020-07-02T19:28:19.701Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I was under the impression that the Interdict was something Yudkowsky added. It's been a long, long time since I read the originals, but this stackexchange post has a bunch of people saying the Interdict is a HPMOR-exclusive. There's also a counterexample: in canon, Harry learns sectumsempra by reading it out of Snape's old potion book.
comment by wizzwizz4 ·
2020-07-03T13:47:19.991Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Yes, it was something Yudkowsky added. But the text doesn't imply ghosts aren't "really people"; it just states that they're read-only human simulations of unknown fidelity, and the characters are chauvinistic about that.