Cryonics priors

1. I am not particularly exceptional among the set of human beings, and so should not value my lifespan much more than that of other humans. I obviously fail at this in practice, but I think the world would be a much better place if I and others didn't fail so often.

If one really took this extreme position, why buy cryonics for yourself rather than someone else (e.g. subsidizing those who can almost afford it to produce more suspensions per dollar)?

Really, what you're asking here is "is paying for cryonic suspensions the most cost-effective known way of purchasing person-neutral QALYs in the entire world?" That's an extremely implausible position that almost no one defends. Even conditional on thinking cryonics was extraordinarily great, paying for research, e.g. scientific tests of the effectiveness of cryonic suspension and related biology, would be better.

What about the probability that, if signed up for cryonics, I will live into the far future?

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There is a chance we'll discover immortality in my lifetime. If so, then if I signed up for cryonics the payout is 0, and the people who died because I bought insurance instead of charity are people I could have saved for far longer.

This is a common confusion on LW, but it doesn't make sense. The cost of life insurance is scaled to your risk of death in a covered period. If technology advances reduce your risk of death in a given period then the cost of life insurance drops. If it falls to negligible levels, then just stop paying premiums, or trade in the policy for its cash surrender value.

Consider applying the same logic to fire insurance: if I pay $N for fire insurance each year, future people might invent a perfect fire-suppression system, reducing the risk of my house burning down to zero. Then I would stop buying fire insurance. But that wouldn't mean the early purchases were foolish: if my house had burned down, future invention of fire-suppression technology wouldn't have helped.

re: #4: Why must the malaria prevention money come out of your cryonics fund and not your frivolous expense fund? Unless you're currently donating all of your expendable income, it doesn't seem like you signing up for cryonics need have any impact on malaria prevention.

5 There is a chance we'll discover immortality in my lifetime. If so, then if I signed up for cryonics the payout is 0

That's a bad argument. Just put a number on the chance that we don't discover immortality in your lifetime and multiply the p value with the expected utility of having a cryonics treatment should you die.

The biggest question seems to be: If you don't sign up for cryonics, will you actually donate that same amount extra money to givewell's top malaria charities, above and beyond what you would give anyway? Because the worst of the possible outcomes is that no one lives, neither you, nor the malaria sufferers you could have saved.

I am not particularly exceptional among the set of human beings, and so should not value my lifespan much more than that of other humans. I obviously fail at this in practice, but I think the world would be a much better place if I and others didn't fail so often.

Are you claiming that this is a true statement about the world or that this is a description of your preferences? In the former case, I'd like to see an argument with that as the conclusion. In the latter case, I would take the fact that you don't seem to act as if this your "true" utility function as significant evidence that it is not your "true" utility function.

Assuming that cryonics has a decent chance of working, then the question boils down to what you will actually be spending your money on if not cryonics. There is no point in saving the money that would be spend on cryonics, and instead spending it on vacations to the tropics or something.

Will sacrificing vacation time, or starbucks visits, or high-speed internet, or something similar for cryonics deplete a pool of willpower that would otherwise all be spent on fighting malaria? Will the knowledge that you're risking your life to fight malaria more effectively make you feel more altruistic, and satisfy your appetite for altruism faster than just donating non-life-saving money to fight malaria, and therefore make you donate less money to fighting malaria overall?

Assuming that:

• There continue to be ridiculously cheap lives to be saved over the course of one's lifetime,
• Cryonics does not itself become ridiculously cheap when practiced on a larger scale,
• One values lives in a person-neutral way while in a mode of thinking that is not too far-biased to spur significant action,
• Cryonics does not increase your total budget for far purchases (e.g. reduced willpower-depletion from resisting luxuries),

The argument for contributing to (or promoting) efficient charity such as GiveWell instead of Cryonics makes sense to me.

However, I don't think any of the above are all that likely. Here are my counterarguments:

1. If GiveWell is given more attention and promoted more effectively, human lives will eventually become less ridiculously cheap to save. It's a simple matter of redirecting money that would otherwise go to less efficient charities. The requirement for this is more advertising/exposure. For the median smart person who spends significant time online and does not have a lot of money, time contributions towards advertising GiveWell and how ridiculously cheap it is to save a life that way may be more effective than equivalent cash contributions (given how relatively little-known it is).
2. If more people purchase cryonics, cryonics will become less expensive. The chance of cryonics working will also go up because it will be practiced in a higher grade clinical setting (which carries its own costs, but these come out of the normal cost of dying in the first world).
3. Part of the discomfort that cryonics causes (and one reason I think it is popular on lesswrong) is that it forces you to decompartmentalize between near and far. This is an important rationality skill. Developing it could easily trigger a higher tendency to take action on far issues like donating to GiveWell (or, generally, choosing an efficient charity like GiveWell over a more "fuzzy-optimized" charity).
4. Cryonics tends to feel like a very selfish choice. Thus money spent on cryonics feels like money spent on a luxury cruise, despite its potential positive externalities (such as making cryonics better/cheaper for everyone else). The part of the brain that insists that so many dollars must go towards selfish things is probably being sated by cryonics costs, leaving more room in the budget for charitable donations when all is said and done (assuming one does not develop the habit of rationalizing selfishness from the exercise).

When I ran the math, the QALY expected value of the two options actually worked out about the same: http://lesswrong.com/lw/6xk/years_saved_cryonics_vs_villagereach/

Given that, it's basically just a matter of personal preferences and signalling - whichever organization you give money to gains credibility and can use that to help attract even more people.

If you just prefer to live forever instead, the math says that's TOTALLY OKAY. Do NOT feel selfish about this decision - you're helping yourself, and you're helping humanity move towards a rationalist, post-death mindset. Even if cryonics doesn't work out, the idea of "ending death" is still an incredibly valuable one to have out there.

My personal opinion is that the cryonics will not become acceptable until there are some major scientific breakthroughs that make it more plausible. I'm waiting until then to sign up, which may very well mean I die first. If you believe the signalling is useful, though, then cryonics probably benefits vastly more. Or if you just think immortality is really cool :)

Thanks for posing it in this form - this has been my line of thinking for some time. I agree that it is laudable to weigh other's lives as equal to your own, here.

Personally, though I haven't looked up enough statistics to do the math, my initial approximation says I think supporting charities that fight malaria (etc) is better. My reasoning:

Lives saved now are not just a scalar amount added to the "total number of quality years lived by human beings added across all time" - they are also an investment in the future. Fighting malaria will help speed industrialization (etc) in countries that do not yet contribute as much to research, etc.

In general, most human beings leave a positive impact on society. They invest in their children, perform research, build cities, etc. They give birth to more children, which results in more humans alive when immortality does become reality.

5 is probably the main reason why I don't sign up (if you don't count the fact that the nearest cryonics facility is several thousand miles away from where I am).

"1. Life is better than death. For any given finite lifespan, I'd prefer a longer one, at least within the bounds of numbers I can reasonably contemplate."

Have you included estimates of possible negative utilities? One thing we can count on is that if you are revived you will certainly be at the mercy of whatever revived you. How do you estimate the probability that what wakes you will be friendly? Is the chance at eternal life worth the risk of eternal suffering?

1. The money it would take to sign up for cryonics, though not large, is enough to buy several centuries of healthy life each year if given to givewell's top malaria charities.

I don't see the point of extending the lives of people in chronically dysfunctional societies which can't solve their own malaria problems. For one thing, the boys who survive could just wind up as soldiers for the local warlord and make other people's lives less desirable as as consequence. For example, they might wind up raping the young women who survive.

1. There is a chance we'll discover immortality in my lifetime.

Sorry, this shows seriously confused thinking. You can't test the effectiveness of "life extension," "anti-aging" and "immortality" treatments on humans any faster than the rate at which humans happen to live. We can conduct experiments to create mice which arguably live the muscine equivalent of 1,000 human years. But we know the results of these experiments because the experimental populations have already died with recorded birth and death dates for each individual mouse. But we can't extrapolate this to humans because you can't tell if someone can live 1,000 years until someone lives 1,000 years, which means we will won't have that knowledge any faster than it can arrive.