post by [deleted] · · ? · GW · 0 comments

This is a link post for

0 comments

Comments sorted by top scores.

comment by A_Priori · 2011-10-10T13:32:29.960Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Please pray with me eugman,.. to Saint E. T. Jaynes:

Saint Edwin, I pray for rationality as I begin this day, for I understand there is uncertainty in probability models to be reduced, priors to be corrected, superstitions to be squelched and suckers to be Dutch booked. Grant me the courage to be alert so that that I may correctly hear P(B|A). Thy voice; to persevere, that I may share Thy victory; and to remember, lest I forget the way by which Thou has led me. And when this day is done, Saint Edwin, may I have the courage to see Thy guiding hand in the laws of conditional probability, in the significant features of subjectivist position that have been healed, and in the foundations of statistical inference that have been given.

Amen.

Replies from: Jack
comment by Jack · 2011-10-10T13:50:30.337Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Sometimes I wish there was a sincere, non-theistic rationalist religion I could join. The ritual, poetry and community without the false beliefs. Sermons on philosophy and science. Donuts afterward.

Replies from: Raemon, Dr_Manhattan, Kaj_Sotala, fortyeridania, mwengler, Vaniver
comment by Raemon · 2011-10-10T18:15:10.690Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This is something I'm looking for. Rituals can be comforting whether they have any objective significance.

comment by Dr_Manhattan · 2011-10-10T15:50:44.423Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Donuts afterward.

Chulent. I want chulent and kishke back, with some single malt.

comment by Kaj_Sotala · 2011-10-10T15:42:38.396Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Somebody told me that my equanimity thoughts post looked like the beginning of a new religion, and that it reminded them "of Buddhism in a postmodern context".

comment by fortyeridania · 2011-10-10T15:20:58.207Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

You may want to check out a chapter of the Ethical Society. It's humanist in doctrine but appears to be based organizationally on Christendom. I don't know what the sermons are about, though.

comment by mwengler · 2011-10-10T19:02:39.051Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

You might enjoy a church affiliated with United Centers for Spiritual Living. These come out of the tradition of Emerson and Thoreau (and yes, Mary Baker Eddy). While these churches don't think of themselves as atheistic, they refer to god as "it" and it is difficult to distinguish their god from a universe with consciousness in it. You might also enjoy some Yoga centers, and I think there are other choices.

I was active in Seaside Church in Encinitas CA for a while, and if I were to get active in a church again it would be either that or Soul of Yoga in Encinitas CA.

comment by Vaniver · 2011-10-10T14:22:53.385Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

These exist. Most of them tend to be atheist-friendly rather than explicitly atheist, but odds are high if you live in a major city there's one.

Replies from: Jack
comment by Jack · 2011-10-10T14:36:44.979Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I was partly raised Unitarian Universalist-- but thats not what I mean really. On aesthetics these churches fall far short of the pomp and mystery of, say, Catholicism. On beliefs-- I want a place that replaces reverence for God with reverence for truth not "whatever it is you happen to revere as long as you're tolerant of what everyone else reveres".

Replies from: Vaniver
comment by Vaniver · 2011-10-10T16:37:31.340Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I was partly raised Unitarian Universalist-- but thats not what I mean really. On aesthetics these churches fall far short of the pomp and mystery of, say, Catholicism.

lukeprog would know more (since he's interviewed a couple of people running these sorts of organizations for his old blog) but the impression I get is that atheists have varied taste in pomp and mystery and that most atheists would be interested in a weekly philosophy meetup but not a weekly philosophy meetup with rituals attached. There's still a chance someone has made such an organization in your area, but it is unlikely to be large enough to be self-sustaining or contain sufficient good company.

comment by fortyeridania · 2011-10-10T15:44:34.226Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Any advice on getting back to normal?

Well, you might not be "back to normal" for a long time if you recently broke up with a fiancée. Don't be in a rush to undo whatever epistemological habits you've built up; don't forget the relationship between reversed stupidity and intelligence. I suggest getting your emotional house in order first, which may take a while.

I don't believe in a single one So, you didn't improperly raise your probability estimates of the existence of ghosts, etc.? That's great, but II hope that's because she didn't bring up any previously unaccounted-for evidence in favor of them instead of confirmation bias (here to be understood as discounting evidence that blows from the "wrong" quarter). Can you be more specific about her "perverse logic"? I for one would like to see more real-life examples of the Dark Arts, and resistance against them.

Replies from: eugman, None
comment by eugman · 2011-10-10T17:19:55.031Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Well she did bring up some semi-legitimate evidence. Photographs and personal/family experiences. But I found her conclusions premature and anthropomorphic. I think a lot of what I suffer from right now is availability bias.

Do you think this might merit a post in and of itself? I can talk about some of the things that helped me stay sane and the things i had to fight against. If there's enough support, I'll do it.

But some examples: I was accused of not having an open mind for rejecting certain things outright. For example, no matter how many videos or sightings there are of ufo's even by high level officials, I don't believe that aliens would invent faster than light travel or suspended animation and then come here and flash their blinkers at us.

My inability to explain an event implied I had to accept her explanation for it. Simply saying, no I can't explain that but I don't think your explanation is likely was not acceptable. I wasn't being open-minded.

Wishful thinking was abundant. Inexplicable photographic anomalies were ghosts, specifically her grandfather protecting her. Clairvoyance explained her difficulties controlling her emotions and the bad things that had happened to her in her life.

Evidence was anthropomorphized. If there was evidence for something did happen, it was immediately assumed it had a human-like origin such as a ghost or demon.

It goes on.

Replies from: NancyLebovitz
comment by NancyLebovitz · 2011-10-10T21:27:58.071Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

You've got my sympathy-- borderline is strong stuff.

I'm still digging my way out from childhood emotional abuse of a different variety, so my advice is tentative, but here are a couple of things I think are helpful. One is what I call moving back behind my own eyes. Even though it's based on homunculus beliefs, the general idea is to check on whether I'm in my own relatively direct view of the universe, or if my focus is on what other people might be thinking of me.

This seems to be a special case of something I've been using lately-- asking myself what I'm doing, with the intent of looking at a fairly small chunk. For example, if the answer is "I'm playing a video game while thinking about what an awful person I am", there might be a clue in there somewhere. Recent surprise: You know, it might be a mistake to beat myself up because someone else is making money from the same business idea that I had twenty years ago and never did anything with.

I think you're up against emotional habits of thinking it was urgent to accommodate her as much as specific issues about the occult.

Replies from: eugman
comment by eugman · 2011-10-10T21:48:06.247Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thank you for the advice. And I'm willing to agree about the occult being the minimal issue. I guess the rest of my issues feel off-topic. Still, I am really thinking about writing a post about this and what rationality skills helped, it would be a good case study. Perhaps I shouldn't limit it to just the supernatural stuff. Any thoughts on if it'd be of enough value to people?

Replies from: NancyLebovitz
comment by NancyLebovitz · 2011-10-10T23:14:56.386Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think it would be valuable, though it may just mean that I think it would be valuable for me.

Instrumental rationality includes all aspects of how one can live better and/or more in accordance with one's goals by thinking more clearly.

Replies from: eugman
comment by eugman · 2011-10-10T23:49:14.991Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Alright, as a motivational technique, I publicly commit to complete it within the next two weeks. Would you be willing to do some copyediting?

Replies from: NancyLebovitz
comment by NancyLebovitz · 2011-10-11T00:34:50.113Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Yes.

comment by [deleted] · 2011-10-10T16:05:35.254Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

.

Replies from: eugman
comment by eugman · 2011-10-10T17:20:23.895Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Sigh.

This is difficult to accept.

Replies from: None
comment by [deleted] · 2011-10-10T17:23:45.162Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

.

Replies from: eugman
comment by eugman · 2011-10-10T17:27:12.203Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Any advice on maintaining hope in the same stroke?

The damage was...severe. She had Borderline personality disorder

Replies from: CronoDAS, None
comment by CronoDAS · 2011-10-11T05:22:58.951Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Looks like you thought you had a Manic Pixie Dream Girl but wound up with a Yandere instead.

I recommend a good dose of TV Tropes until your mind settles.

Replies from: eugman
comment by eugman · 2011-10-11T10:36:33.706Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Chrono......that is so accurate it scares me. Also the thought of your suggestion has made me smile all day.

Replies from: CronoDAS
comment by CronoDAS · 2011-10-11T18:50:07.977Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

(Why do people spell my name with an "h"?)

Replies from: NancyLebovitz, eugman
comment by NancyLebovitz · 2011-10-12T17:18:35.837Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Because "chrono" is much more common than "crono".

People get my name wrong too because of availability bias.

Replies from: pedanterrific
comment by pedanterrific · 2011-10-12T17:59:08.170Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

On a related note, I really shot myself in the foot with this username.

Every time I let it go by without comment, I feel like a bit of a fraud.

comment by eugman · 2011-10-11T18:58:32.476Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Because of Chrono Trigger

Replies from: CronoDAS
comment by CronoDAS · 2011-10-11T19:16:06.680Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

True... but the main character of that game is named "Crono" with no h.

(Don't worry, misspelling my screen name won't get you Gannon Banned.)

comment by [deleted] · 2011-10-10T21:58:49.495Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

.

Replies from: eugman
comment by eugman · 2011-10-10T22:54:05.553Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

To put it bluntly, in not being permanently fucked up.

EDIT: Whoops, I think I forgot a comma. I was asking how to be realistic and optimistic at the same time.

Replies from: None
comment by [deleted] · 2011-10-11T00:32:13.669Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

.

Replies from: eugman
comment by eugman · 2011-10-11T01:27:59.780Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Well, I'm not worried about the subject in the original post. I know that will repair itself, I just wish it'd happen a lot faster. The question of hope referred to your original statement of getting back to normal in general and to the damage from having a partner with BPD more specifically.

Some concerns: Escaping tremendous guilt and guilt about being happy. Reestablishing my values and integrity. Reestablishing my sense of self and identity. Building my self-esteem. Not behaving like someone with shellshock in my next relationship.

Gabriel, have you read about BPD before? I'm getting the impression that either I'm doing a poor job of communicating the scope of my previous situation.

Replies from: None
comment by [deleted] · 2011-10-11T02:00:18.577Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

.

Replies from: NancyLebovitz, eugman
comment by NancyLebovitz · 2011-10-11T14:32:19.300Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Sketchy view of BPD from reading about it-- it involves extreme swings from "you're the most wonderful person in the world" to "everything about you is horrible".

comment by eugman · 2011-10-11T02:09:58.669Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Yes, at some point a therapist would be a idea. And my main reason would be that I suffered from depression for many years until entering into this relationship ironically. So I'm used to seemingly intractable mental issues.

comment by [deleted] · 2011-10-10T13:13:44.801Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

.

comment by Thomas · 2011-10-10T11:10:20.517Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think you are recovering fast, otherwise you wouldn't care so much. Maybe you will gain a net win here. Think about it all as an immunization event against such influences in the future.

Replies from: eugman
comment by eugman · 2011-10-10T11:17:15.132Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think Godel, Escher, Bach was my first booster shot. Less wrong helps too. It's funny, I never thought of myself as a dogmatic person until I was forced to believe that the world is real with the stubbornness of a zealot. I do hope I recover quickly, I find that sort of thinking disappointing in myself.

Replies from: Clarica
comment by Clarica · 2011-10-11T19:32:35.855Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I really sympathize. I use reality checking constantly to keep my strong tendency to believe in mystic resonance stuff to an absolute minimum.

This line I found especially poignant:

If nothing else, I'm more afraid of the dark or being alone than I used to be.

because while I don't usually have those fears, I think they are a natural response. You are more alone than you used to be, if you have one person who moved from a great propinquity of relations, to hardly any contact. And in the dark you can not see what's coming for you. knowing that the likelyhood of anything coming for you is extremely remote is no comfort.

The presence of another person usually is a comfort.

comment by falenas108 · 2011-10-10T13:31:41.807Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Going to a meetup would help, if one is in your area. Just being around people who thought more "rationally" than I did improved my thinking.

If not, have you read the sequences yet? This would be an excellent time to do so. Even if you have, rereading some of the more pertinent ones might help.

Replies from: eugman, fortyeridania
comment by eugman · 2011-10-10T14:14:49.737Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Anyone living west of Pittsburgh with a car?

Also, I've read parts of it, so maybe I should go back through.

Replies from: falenas108
comment by fortyeridania · 2011-10-10T15:13:44.115Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Which sequences would you recommend?

Replies from: falenas108
comment by falenas108 · 2011-10-10T18:31:00.867Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

For sequences, Mysterious Answers, Reductionism, and How to Change Your Mind. For individual articles, I would suggest How an Algorithm feels from the Inside, Making Beliefs Pay Rent, and Mysterious Answers To Mysterious Questions.

comment by eugman · 2011-11-02T15:44:39.219Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I've completed a first draft of the post based on this, in case anyone would be willing to provide suggestions.

comment by achiral · 2011-10-12T13:59:28.979Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Please don't be offended, this is not my intention at all, rather I intend to offer what I believe are valid suggestions.

Obviously, you like and love many things about her, yet you two were ultimately incompatible. In my experience partners often compliment each other in both good and bad ways. I suggest therapy because, to be perfectly honest, it's quite likely you have about as many problems as her(just different ones) if you were with her long enough to get engaged.

I also suggest an excellent book called The Erotic Mind. You (presumably) have a high degree of sexual compatibility with her, yet now you have broken up and it's highly likely that your sexual dynamic contained unhealthy elements, was probably turbulent at times, etc. This book has helped me tremendously in figuring out my sexuality, learning to love my sexuality, not feeling inhibited or ashamed of my fantasies, and it gave me a lot of insight into the dynamics of my relationships.

Replies from: eugman
comment by eugman · 2011-10-13T10:05:51.474Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

So to inform you, at first I was offended but I think this was a cached thought. I'd say I probably have a bit of white knight syndrome and a lack of assertiveness. Another was the sexual dynamic, she keyed in on my exact sexual fantasy. Also, she was my first, which had a lot to do with it and what makes that book sound really interesting.

EDIT: I guess I should mention this fantasy is highly unethical, and perhaps partly immoral. So I really don't expect to ever find anyone else to fill it. Anyone who would fill it would probably have side-interests I'd want to avoid. If anyone wants to know in private, I can talk about it.

Replies from: achiral
comment by achiral · 2011-10-14T15:12:01.803Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I don't really desire to know your specific fantasies. However, if fantasies are something meaningful/concerning to you then that book is the best source of useful knowledge about them I have ever seen.

I also think the book is one of those that becomes even more meaningful when one has more relationship history, rather than being intended primarily for the inexperienced.

comment by eugman · 2011-10-11T17:17:25.069Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I have a thousand words so far for my post, if anyone is interested in helping early on in the process. Right now it's a giant jumble, there's no structure yet. That'll be next week. I'm just trying to get the thoughts all down.

comment by Eneasz · 2011-10-10T21:33:11.636Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Humans tend to become more like those they spend a lot of time with. As you apparently discovered. This works both ways. Spend more time with skeptics IRL. Also listen to rational/skeptical podcasts, surf LW, etc, but by far the IRL aspect is the strongest and most important.

comment by PhilGoetz · 2011-10-21T04:03:17.424Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Being afraid of the dark or being alone are both symptoms of loneliness. You might just be emotional. So I'm not persuaded that you have the problem you think you have.

comment by Peacewise · 2011-10-24T05:09:38.069Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Sounds to me like you withheld arguing with her on these matters and so got out of practice debunking the irrational.

If it's correct that you are just suffering a lack of practice of rationality then it's pretty simple to retake up your rational training and things will swing back towards normal.

comment by James_Miller · 2011-10-10T16:02:20.646Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

From an evolutionary psychology viewpoint and given that humans are imperfect actors how you behaved was normal for a male of our species.

Replies from: eugman
comment by eugman · 2011-10-11T01:30:27.783Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I guess that helps me feel better about myself. My brain is just going, Oh crap, tigers!