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comment by Dacyn · 2022-08-02T20:11:20.482Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The problem I see with this proposal is that the concept of "information" that you are using here is not a physical concept but an epistemological one. The lamp is information to your friend, but it would not be information to another person in the same location who was unaware of your plan. So trying to reduce this concept of information to fundamental physics seems incorrect -- except in the sense that we can reduce your friend's brain to fundamental physics.

Replies from: AlfredHarwood
comment by A.H. (AlfredHarwood) · 2022-08-04T17:39:13.303Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I agree with your example and think that it touches on something important. However, in this post, I did not claim that the counterfactual condition was the only condition required for information transfer. You are correct to say that the lamp signal would not constitute information to someone who was unaware of the plan. But this is because, in that situation, there are other conditions that have not been met. Since the other person seeing the lamp signal would not react differently to the different signals, there is no causal link between the signal and them. This is also required for information transfer. I tried to explain this idea a bit more in my subsequent post [LW · GW]. 

If you don't like the idea of information being physical, rather than epistemological, then maybe you can think of this post as asking the question 'what are the physical conditions that a system must satisfy in order to transmit epistemological information?'

comment by Mo Putera (Mo Nastri) · 2022-08-02T03:00:55.201Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It is hoped that this will allow for solutions to some of the problems which are inherent to the prevailing conception of physics while opening up new avenues of investigation and allowing us to talk about concepts like information. In future posts, I'll explain how it does this in more detail.

Could you at least give a "teaser preview" of what are the "problems which are inherent to the prevailing conception of physics" you mention here? Perhaps the Applications page regarding hybrid systems, and the remark in Q2 of the FAQ about how constructor theory lets you handle concepts like knowledge or information on objective grounds?

Replies from: AlfredHarwood
comment by A.H. (AlfredHarwood) · 2022-08-02T14:50:25.080Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Hi, thanks for your question. I have a big piece covering all of this in more detail which I plan to post in a couple of days once I've finished writing it. In the meantime, please accept this 'teaser' of a few problems in the prevailing conception (PC):

  1. Dealing with hybrid systems. If we are operating in a regime where there are two contradictory sets of dynamical laws, we do not know what kind of evolution the system will follow. An example of such a system is one where both gravity (as governed by general relativity) and quantum mechanics are relevant. In such a cases, under the PC, it is difficult to make any predictions of what kind of behaviour systems will exhibit, since we lack the dynamical laws governing the system. However, by appealing to general counterfactual principles (the interoperability principle and the principle of locality), which cannot be stated in the PC, we can make predictions about such systems, even if we don't know the form of the dynamical laws.
  2. The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Under the PC, the 2nd is difficult to express precisely, since all dynamical laws are reversible in time, but the 2nd law implies irreversible dynamics. This is normally dealt with by introducing some degree of imprecision or anthropocentrism (eg. through averaging or coarse graining, or describing the 2nd law in terms of our state of knowledge of the system). However, the 2nd law can be stated precisely as a counterfactual statement along the lines of 'it is impossible to engineer a cyclic process which converts heat entirely into work'.
  3. The initial state problem. Under the PC, the state of a system can be explained in terms of its evolution, according to dynamical laws, from a previous state at an earlier time. This makes it difficult to explain early states of the universe: if a state can only be explained in terms of earlier states, then either the universe has an initial state, which we cannot explain (since there are no earlier state), or the universe does not have an initial state we have an infinite regress, explaining each state in terms of earlier states, going on forever. Neither of these options seem satisfactory.
Replies from: TAG
comment by TAG · 2022-08-10T16:24:56.063Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The 2nd Law of Thermodynamics. Under the PC, the 2nd is difficult to express precisely, since all dynamical laws are reversible in time

It's important to note that the reversability of microphysical laws, is

  1. not apriori or necessary. It something that was discovered.

  2. it only applies to microphysical laws. So 2LT, being macroscopic, is still physics, as everyone except Deutsch thinks.

  3. the problem is not so much stating it as justifying it microphysically.

comment by Measure · 2022-08-02T01:51:29.354Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This seems to be related to Eliezer's example of your brain state becoming entangled with that of your shoelaces. The key feature there is systems that respond differently to different inputs (e.g. your shoelaces reflect light differently if they're untied).

Replies from: AlfredHarwood
comment by A.H. (AlfredHarwood) · 2022-08-02T08:56:22.647Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I presume you are talking about the post What is Evidence [LW · GW]?

Yes, the ideas in that post are closely related to this one. I think that the main difference is that, in that post Eliezer is interested in epistemology whereas here I am interested in how the process works from a physics point of view. For example, in my post, there is no need for 'information' (as I am using the word) to be correlated with true beliefs.

Replies from: Measure
comment by Measure · 2022-08-02T11:55:42.829Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

That's the one.

comment by TAG · 2022-08-04T14:31:36.501Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"Information" means more than one thing...

Shannon information , which is basically just a quantity of bits, not a meaning, is an objective quantity.

But information as meaning depends on interpretation, as Dacyn says

But the PC is not particularly well-suited to describing counterfactuals. Once the initial conditions are set, it can describe what will happen, but it cannot describe why the light in the first scenario carries information, and the identical evolution in the second scenario does not

The PC is very apt to describe conditionals, because it describes how a system evolves conditional on an initial state. And a counterfactual is just a conditional whose antecedent didn't happen (as I interpret the term).

Instead, the information is a counterfactual property: it is only meaningful to say that the electromagnetic field carries information if it could have been in a different state. (We can reach a similar conclusion by considering the case where the lamp is stuck in the ‘off’ position

AFAICS, that's just a special case of the inverse relationship between probability and(Shannon) information. If the lamp is stuck "on", the probability of an "on" signal is 1.000 and the information content is 0.000. So it's not fundamentally about counterfactuals at all.

Replies from: AlfredHarwood
comment by A.H. (AlfredHarwood) · 2022-08-04T18:14:46.440Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think I disagree with your characterisation of the split between 'objective' Shannon information and information as meaning, which requires interpretation.

As you point at the end of your comment, Shannon information requires you to know the probability distribution from which your data is drawn. And probabilities are reflections of your own state of knowledge, which is subjective. (Or at least subjectively objective [LW · GW], if you are using 'objective' in that sense, then I guess I agree.) For example, if Alice sends Bob a string '11111', we might be tempted to say that she has sent Bob 5 bits of information, but if Bob knows that Alice can only send two possible strings '00000' or '11111', then he would say that she has only sent one bit. All signals, not just what you call 'information as meaning' require some degree of interpretation. And this interpretation, I argue, requires knowing the possible signals that could be sent, even if they are not actually sent. These possible signals are what I am calling counterfactuals. 

I'm not sure I understand your point about conditionals vs counterfactuals.

AFAICS, that's just a special case of the inverse relationship between probability and(Shannon) information. If the lamp is stuck "on", the probability of an "on" signal is 1.000 and the information content is 0.000. So it's not fundamentally about counterfactuals at all.

I kind of agree with this, but it doesn't tell the whole story. Consider the case where, instead of being stuck 'on', the lamp flickers randomly and is on 50% of the time and off 50% of the time. In this case, you would not be able to use the lamp to send information, even though the probability of an 'on' signal is 0.5 and, in one sense, the Shannon entropy would be maximal. To send information requires that it is possible for you to change the signal sent by the lamp. This is what I was trying to get at in this post. Another way of thinking about it is to say that you must have a causal effect on the state of the signal. In both the case where the lamp is stuck on and the case where it is flickering uncontrollably, you have no causal link to the state of the signal. I tried to explain the link between counterfactuals, information and causality in the subsequent post [LW · GW]. 

Replies from: TAG
comment by TAG · 2022-08-10T15:30:41.139Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

As you point at the end of your comment, Shannon information requires you to know the probability distribution from which your data is drawn. And probabilities are reflections of your own state of knowledge, which is subjective

Not necessarily. Objective probabilities could exist. That just gives you two different measures, an objective one and a subjective one.

For example, if Alice sends Bob a string ’11111′, we might be tempted to say that she has sent Bob 5 bits of information, but if Bob knows that Alice can only send two possible strings ‘00000’ or ‘11111’, then he would say that she has only sent one bit.

If Bob doesnt know that Alice can only send one of two five bit strings, then she, objectively, had sent only one bit, and his subjective subjective estimate based on subjective probability is wrong.

In short , the same relationship between probability and information content holds in both contexts.

In this case, you would not be able to use the lamp to send information, even though the probability of an ‘on’ signal is 0.5 and, in one sense, the Shannon entropy would be maximal. To send information requires that it is possible for you to change the signal sent by the lamp

The Shannon information is maximal, so your second use of "information" has to refer to something other than Shannon information.

Yes, you have to causally control a signal to send information-as-meaning, and that has something to do with counterfactuals, but it isn't just counterfactuals. An uncontrolled, random sequence could have been different, so it has counterfactual versions.

comment by TAG · 2022-08-04T14:10:11.666Z · LW(p) · GW(p)