Where are the post-COVID complainers?

post by knite · 2020-12-28T18:36:16.728Z · LW · GW · 1 comment

This is a question post.


    Stuart Anderson
1 comment

Assumption: COVID immunity lasts a long time, because that's how diseases work, and this is the case for 95+% of people who get COVID or a COVID vaccine.

20% of the United States has had COVID (13-30% per https://covid19-projections.com/) and presumed immune. Even if we conservatively take the official case count (20M) and trim off 25% to account for possible duplicates, that's 5% of the population.

Another 1-2% has already been vaccinated and will join them in a month, with more every week after that.

So on the low end, in mid-January, 7% of the country will be fine. COVID-fine, at any rate, but still subject to all local, statewide, and national restrictions.

Why aren't these people making noise about going back to their normal lives? They want to eat in restaurants and make money working in restaurants. They want to see their friends and shop. They want to do lots of things.

I notice that I am very surprised that this large and growing minority isn't insisting on partial re-openings (with immunity certificates?). I'm surprised they're not screaming for it. I'm surprised it's not a discussion all across the media. What am I missing?


answer by remizidae · 2020-12-28T20:57:12.925Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think people who are immune are often either 1) risk-averse enough not to change their behavior or 2) responding by changing their own choices rather than pushing for changes to government restrictions.  I think your surprise is coming from over-estimating the extent to which people's behavior is driven by government rules.

The difference between my behavior currently and my probable behavior post-vaccine or post-infection would be almost entirely about changing self-imposed restrictions. I could already legally eat in restaurants outdoors, work in restaurants, go to outdoor bars, see my friends in groups of <25, shop, go to the gym, get my hair cut, or travel by plane. To the extent I don't do those things, it's my choice, not a restriction imposed by the government. (The only thing I cannot legally do that I would like to do is eat in restaurants indoors, and I expect that restriction to be lifted in a few weeks anyway. And if I really cared about eating indoors, I could just drive to the next county/state.)

comment by knite · 2020-12-28T23:20:14.482Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Ah, you've made me realize that I haven't thought through the variability between cities and states. As someone living in California, I currently cannot: eat in restaurants (indoors or outdoors), go to bars (ditto), gather in groups outside my "household", or get my hair cut.

comment by remizidae · 2020-12-29T00:40:16.106Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Yes! I kind of suspected you might be in a strict-lockdown bubble and overgeneralizing from that. BTW, you can’t legally see a single friend?!

comment by knite · 2020-12-29T07:33:33.480Z · LW(p) · GW(p)


"All gatherings with members of other households are prohibited in the Region except as expressly permitted herein."

"Nothing in this Order prevents any number of persons from the same household from leaving their residence, lodging, or temporary accommodation, as long as they do not engage in any interaction with (or otherwise gather with) any number of persons from any other household, except as specifically permitted herein."

As far as I can see, the only exceptions are for "worship" and "political expression".

comment by remizidae · 2020-12-29T20:39:15.728Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Jeez, California is really trying to drive people away, huh? I’m sorry you have to live there.

comment by Dagon · 2020-12-31T17:59:20.748Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Maybe true - it's a REALLY pleasant place to be, so perhaps they're figuring out how to make it less so to reduce the significant crowding and public-choice problems they have.

More likely, the case rate is very high and hospitals are at capacity, so they're taking extreme measures to make it rather annoying rather than (even more) horrifically fatal.

answer by Dagon · 2020-12-29T02:30:29.134Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think there's a lot of other-optimizing and social pressure intended in this.  Even if one is in the minority of immune (or near-immune), most of the people you care about aren't, yet.  And we all know there are significant numbers of fools "out there" who'll claim immunity even when they don't have it.  If we normalize risky-seeming behavior for a significant fraction of the populace, we're likely to see a whole lot of impostors spreading the disease.

Also, reinfection is very rare, and the vaccine is quite effective, but neither is perfect protection.  The only real answer is the combination of immunity and risk-avoidance that really makes it impossible to spread.   

Both of these motives combine to make me prefer NOT to return to normal, even if I personally am no longer at high risk, until it's just no longer a newsworthy quantity of new infections.

answer by jmh · 2020-12-29T04:09:30.965Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This is very much a "gut reaction" type answer to your question.

The ones that are most likely to be complaining already are -- and they don't care if they have immunity or not.

Those the do care probably see two down-sides to the "complain to get more normality". First, they will tend to come across a bit as uncaring/snobbis: "I'm good now so you guys suffer on your own." or that that would be associated with the first group. (Given one can probably predict who someone voted for based on their being in the first group above that is really bad signalling.)

Additionally, who will they really be going out with at this point. Probably a bit of network effects here (going out is great, but not as a "solo" activity.) Plus, just organizing that movement will be problematic and activists have a number of high priorities at this time I suspect.

(Note,  I am with you on that approach being rather reasonable and would love to see, at least a travel passport type exemption adopted -- have the proof of vaccination and international travel is now allowed largely as it was pre-pandemic, implemented.

Interestingly, I posted a comment here maybe a month back with the same type of approach. It was not welcomed as I recall.)

answer by Stuart Anderson · 2020-12-29T08:58:49.959Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I question the assumption about immunity. Something that never goes away is very different to an exceptional event. The flu is never leaving us because we would need a universal vaccine that was administered at birth for the entire human population (animal reservoirs for coronaviruses are many). We don't have 8 billion doses of any vaccine, let alone one that works universally and for sufficient duration, and we don't have the infrastructure to reach everyone anyway. 

There are lots of reasons not to complain. If your life has already been destroyed there's nothing to go back to. People in ruin have other things that are more important than getting on twitter to bitch. Much damage has already been done, everyone knows that nobody responsible will ever pay for that. Everyone knows that plenty will never recover. Everyone knows that ultimately nobody cares, and that the second this is out of the public (and especially political, not that they aren't milking it for all its worth) consciousness it will be nothing more than a footnote.

Secondly, given the filter bubbles we all live in the odds are that there's plenty of complaint that you are never exposed to. The majority of my trusted media and commentary sources have been complaining since the beginning (The Mostly peaceful protest meme springs to mind as an example of the severe disconnect that the tribes have with each other). So from my perspective this exists, and you either aren't exposed to it or you see it and dismiss it (like we all do). This isn't across your media because your media is heavily filtered and biased (like all media is). 

Getting a clear picture these days is a lot of work, and that's something a lot of people don't want to do - and that's before they start redpilling and blackpilling themselves with whatever they dig up. I know that the more I find out about what's happening in the world the more disgusted and demoralised I get. All news is inherently biased against whitepills, and so is our very biology. We evolved to pay more attention to threat.

Immunity certificates are the kind of thing that those that favour authoritarianism want. Anyone with half a brain can see what a disaster that would be, but when people are a part of the group that is on top and enjoying punishing others they rarely stop to consider logical consequences (ie. make shackles, have them used on you). What can you do? There's no vaccine for stupidity and there never will be.

comment by knite · 2020-12-29T19:07:55.024Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Anyone with half a brain can see what a disaster that would be

This is rather rude.

comment by Stuart Anderson (stuart-anderson) · 2020-12-31T14:47:30.119Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Not if you have more than half a brain. 

If you choose to be offended by a common turn of phrase that's your privilege. Perhaps you're from a non-English speaking background. That would make a honest failure to understand the idiom far more plausible.

If you are the kind of disingenuous person that fakes offence that makes things a little more tricky. The entire point of covert hostility is to avoid consequences and responsibility. It is specifically crafted to co-opt the mechanism for empathy for malicious ends. It's easy to spot but very difficult to prove.

That being said, as I am an offensive person and wear that mantle publicly and without shame consider this your invitation to leave. You are responsible for what you choose to engage with. I am not responsible for your feelings and reactions. If you choose to stay then that's on you.

comment by Dagon · 2020-12-31T18:03:59.667Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I don't think the rudeness was about the phrase, but the implication that anyone who disagreed was dumb.  A raw assertion "this would be a disaster" is both clearer, and allows space to question and disagree.  A judgement about readers "anyone with half a brain can see ..." is worse on most dimensions, for LessWrong-style writing, at least.  It's fine for Facebook, for instance.

comment by Stuart Anderson (stuart-anderson) · 2021-01-01T12:55:45.611Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

That idiom doesn't mean a person is an idiot and you know it. So does knite. 

Knite doesn't get the privilege of your "I think what they really meant was ..." with me being held to a literal standard. Either both of us are taken literally on everything we say all the time (which would be a disaster) or we take into account things like intent, inference, nuance, idioms, etc. that regular English speakers can be expected to understand.

I don't know why knite chose against just telling me why they think I'm wrong, but I do know that knite is more than smart enough to know exactly what they are doing. Knite isn't an idiot, that's kind of the problem: why is knite doing as they are here? I interpret knite's actions as covert hostility, and my standard response to that was given. I could certainly be wrong, but given that you've chimed in with a response driven by empathy to aid knite in the manner I explicitly outlined in my comment it's not looking like it. Like I said, easy to spot, hard to prove.

Anyone is free to ask me questions at any time to clarify what I do and do not mean by a statement. If anyone is in any doubt that I make my positions as plain as I can, or that I have any qualms or reservations about not saying what I mean for social reasons then let me disabuse them of that notion. If people are waiting for me to be their mother when it comes to their feelings then they're going to be waiting until the end of time. That's not who I am and I make no secret of that. If people want that kind of thing there are plenty of alternatives to me.

comment by knite · 2020-12-31T17:59:40.573Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

That being said, as I am an offensive person and wear that mantle publicly and without shame consider this your invitation to leave. You are responsible for what you choose to engage with. I am not responsible for your feelings and reactions. If you choose to stay then that's on you.

Sorry bud, this is my post, so consider this your invitation to leave.

comment by Stuart Anderson (stuart-anderson) · 2021-01-01T11:49:56.974Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Invitation accepted.

I'm happy to avoid you from now on (at least as much as I can remember to. Lesswrong's user controls are practically non-existent). If you are acting in good faith then I expect you to do the same.

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comment by magfrump · 2020-12-29T02:39:43.496Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

As remizidae [LW(p) · GW(p)] points out, most of these restrictions are not effectively enforced by governments, they are enforced by individuals and social groups. In California, certainly, the restaurants and bars thing is enforced mostly by the government, but that's mostly a "governments can't act with nuance" problem.

But for things like gatherings of friends, I think this question still applies. The government cannot effectively enforce limits on that, but your group of friends certainly can.

And I think in that context, this question remains. That is, I think groups of friends in California should start plans for how to handle social norms under partial immunity. 

I have personally suggested this to friends a couple times, and I've met with a lack of enthusiasm. I think a part of that is that the question is so politically tribal, that taking any action that isn't MAXIMALLY SERIOUS is a betrayal of the tribe, even if it has no practical value.

Also, making any such plans public, versus just keeping a google doc of who among your friends has been vaccinated, creates a lot of social awkwardness, so I'd expect that in practice people will come up with their own personal, secret, and highly error-prone ways of handling it.