A My Little Pony fanfic allegedly but not mainly about immortality

This is stunningly good. There are only a few flaws and they would be very easy to fix, like the explicit mention of "evolutionary psychology" - which can be fixed by just deleting the texts "from evolutionary psychology" and "the dominance of individual over group selection" and leaving the rest of the paragraph exactly unchanged...

...actually, I think that's the only flaw I found, which is amazing.

Maybe you guys should have a monthly brony thread :(

I'd like to see more stories which present superlongevity as the default and normal state, then subvert our assumptions about "the human condition." Damon Knight did that in an interesting way in the 1950's with his story "The Dying Man." The negligibly senescent female protagonist, when she hears that her boyfriend has developed a mysterious ailment called "aging" which will eventually kill him, exclaims, "But that doesn't happen to people!"

My scan of that story:

https://www.box.com/shared/static/6vgqnt03vc.pdf

Two or three years ago, Analog published a story (the title escapes me) which heavily plagiarizes Knight's story and could just about substitute for it.

Just read over the story (okay, browsed really so I am working on incomplete information and thus this isn't a 100% proper assessment) so I'll list my thoughts on the matter.

[1] Celestia here doesn't seem to be having fun. I know well that this deals with the death of her prized student and that isn't a thing to be happy about but there are so many other things that she doesn't seem to enjoy. Such as when she mentions she doesn't look at the moon anymore. Her sister controls the night, had an episode 1,000 years ago when she thought her work wasn't being appreciated, and was recently freed from being imprisoned in the moon itself.

If Celestia made it a point to stay up and look at the moon more and maybe say, "For a millennium, I raised the sun at dawn but ignored the moon, I took it for granted. Then when I was forced to imprison my sister, I raised the moon as well. For a thousand years I carried that thing through the sky, looking at the picture of Luna imprisoned in it. Generations of ponies looke up and saw the "Mare in the Moon" not knowing who she was or if she was real."

"Then, Twilight came and with her friends freed my sister from her curse. That day I got my sister back, and for once I could watch her raise the moon as she did all those years before. That day, I and so many others were able to look up at the beautiful moon in the sky and see it as it had been before it had been used as a prison."

"I must say, the moon is beautiful."

Basically.... this is character who had seen things as they were thousands of years before and watched things grow and develop and had even orchestrated a thousand year long plan to save her sisters and (to an extent) restore the moon to the way it looked per-banishment. It would make sense that she would seek to look at the beauty in things.

Or even "Heh, I remember those first few years. Every once in a while after a hard days work I would prepare for bed as I have done for centuries. Then, I would look out the window and spot the moon... only it was different! I'd blink look again to find that the Mare in the Moon was gone and I'd panic. Hah hah... I remember once I was worried that Nightmare Moon had escaped when I wasn't looking! But then I'd remember how Luna had gotten out and Twilight freed her."

"Then, on those nights I would find my sister standing on the top balcony, looking up at the stars as she moved them into place. I would stand there and admire them as she worked."

"I can't believe I never appreciated the work she puts in all those stars."

Or whatever... I guess I'm saying that with immortal characters it would make sense to have at least one major thing that they really enjoy. Something they have done over the centuries that they are very proud of, or some hobby that they have tracked for all this time and they note how its changed. ("I pity the people who think cheddar is the only type of cheese around. I've traveled the world and had cheeses from all over... I've even got a 200 year old wheel of English Brie in the cellar... I really should crack that thing open one of these days for a special occasion. Hell, I'll do it this thursday. Make a party of it.").

[2] She seems to talk down to the ponies (or "mortals") around her. I think that's what gradually put me off Methods of Rationality and Luminosity is that the protagonists of these sorts of "Rational" stories seem to plop labels on others. Oh I know that deep down we all have habits and ingrained instincts and stuff and a sufficiently intelligent person can see those things as they really are but its rather off putting when the protagonists have such low regard of people who aren't immortal super geniuses.

"That was why I instituted cutie marks. Mortals are like apples, and will thoughtlessly grow wherever they fall unless you give them a good kick."

Because obviously labeling every singly pony in the world with a permanent symbol on their bodies that represents (what one can assume to be) their life goal is totally conductive to making ponies go about and try new things. IN OPPOSITE LAND!

(Sorry, about that. Its just the idea that sufficiently advanced intelligence would covertly label people with symbols to designate their status in life doesn't seem very friendly).

[3] As far as the life vs death thing goes... I'm of the personal opinion that living beyond the point where life isn't enjoyable isn't necessarily a good thing. If one can increase the happiness of a living person then that's great. If you can prolong the life of someone who is happy then that's also good. If you prolong the life of someone who isn't enjoying themselves... then it kind of defeats the purpose. (plus there are cases involving those who cause unhappiness for other in which case prolonging life isn't good) The Celestia in this story doesn't seem to enjoy herself so there really is no reason why she can't pass on the torch to someone else who might do a better job of it.

Or alternately, have Twilight analyze whatever magical essence allows immortality and try duplicating it.

As a side note: Living for the benefit of others is also a good thing (though not ideal). If someone doesn't personally enjoy their life but brings happiness to others then one can argue that suicide would be inappropriate.

"Twilight, I've never really said this before but I really don't enjoy life... oh, I don't hate it or anything but sometimes when I'm not working then I just feel... empty. Like whatever spark in me allows for self-enjoyment has been extinguised long ago. My purpose in this world is to raise the sun, to rule Equestria in a benevolent manner... and that's it. I've eaten so much cake over the centuries that it has stopped being a novelty, sex, games, theater, books... I've either experienced them all or reached the point where I can't imagine experiencing them would improve my quality of life in any way."

"It could be a chemical imbalance, some side effect of my condition, or perhaps my mind has had so many experiences over the eons that there just isn't that much room for anything else anymore."

"The point is that right now I live for others. I do not fear non-existance for my own sake, I just know that if I were to... die then my little ponies would not know what to do. They need someone to lead them and care for them and right now I think you would be an ideal candidate."

"A long and well-lived life is a blessing and I have lived over a thousand years before I found it no longer bearable. Perhaps you will last for two thousand? Heh... it is a puzzle, to live forever with only the limits of the mind to hold you back. I'm sure between you and Pinkie, you will find an answer to that."

(sorry this came out really long and the auto-formatting made it look weird)

I think it's because the immortal character is mysterious, miserable-seeming, and hard to empathize with, whereas the mortal characters are likable and happy.

On topic: The primary impression I got was that Celestia didn't have the emotional firmness to carry out the plan she logically agreed was the best plan. As you put it, she has sentimentality, not true love. The story is about her abdicating, and about thrusting her duties onto Twilight. Twilight will shut up and multiply.

That is, I agree with your 1 and 2. (I don't think the evolutionary plan is evil- but I'm also willing to trust cold equations.) It also doesn't help that Celestia isn't saying "I like Twilight more than I like myself, I think Twilight deserves to live more than I do," Celestia is saying "I think Twilight will be more Stalinesque than I am, and that's what my little ponies need more than mothering."

The traditional way to make Celestia seem selfless is to have Celestia actually go native. That is, she's not just raising up Twilight so that Twilight can be the Bad Cop that leads Equestia to the Glorious New Dawn, but she's raising up Twilight because she thinks Twilight can come up with a better plan than Titania- the short-sighted ponies will figure out a way to abolish tradeoffs and make the world full of both glory and smiles and rainbows! I do not recommend this path: it is traditional but it is not correct.

Alternate, simpler explanation: people think the situation is sad because the situation is sad. Focusing on the parts that will make the situation happy will make people realize the things about immortality that are great. Celestia never visualizes the bright and glorious future that Twilight will usher in, and how Twilight will get to experience it when she might not. It's implied by her belief in the equations- but she spends more time fantasizing about the stallion she never got to have sex with / the foal she never birthed than she does fantasizing about Equus Superior. No wonder people think she's selfish!

Somewhat off topic:

I don't think you understand the impropriety of asking me to turn my friends' final moments into reports for you

Something that shows up sometimes in narratives might get called "the superagent assumption": basically, if something happens, the most strategic / powerful character intended it to happen. Thus, this is evidence that Titania both understands and intends the impropriety of these reports. (I'm not on TVTropes enough to know if has a name there.) It's not clear if that's what you intended- and if not, you might want to have Celestia express it as a value disagreement ("I can't express how much I resent" instead of "you sure you're doing this right?").

Off topic: I just realized that you wrote Big Mac Reads Something Purple, which is one of my favorite MLP fanfics.

The section about Pinkie Pie and how mortals seem to do a much better job of living in the moment might be triggering people's deathist reflexes. Also, Celestia in this story clearly lives a rather lonely existence, not getting to do a lot of the things she wants to. Not exactly the poster child for Fun Theory.

I like the story The Light Goes Out that tackles mortality of Twilight Sparkle and immortality of Princess Celestia, but is hardly pro-death.

Not being that well-versed in the MLP-verse I didn't read the fic, but here's my two cents anyway:

If "I'm afraid of dying" didn't manage the intended emotional appeal, it may be because of those allegations of selfishness you already noted. One solution is to steer attention away from what death implies for her, and towards what it means for someone else. Altruism, if not overdone, should work better than self-interest (however enlightened). Here's an excerpt from one Damien's fanfic Ascension, which I felt worked quite well:

This Saria was just too young to understand. Paige didn't believe she had to explain herself to a child and her biases toward the Kokiri began to surface. "Well, Link is Hylian and he needs a Hylian to raise him and meet his needs. You're just a child, yourself, cursed to be young forever! What could you possibly know about children?"

Almost as soon as the words left her mouth, with a great suddenness the sky opened up and the rain began to pour down on the strange couple. Though her face remained angered, the fear that she was in a very magical place and that she may have over stepped her bounds, was creeping into Paige's bones. Looking at the face of Saria and the tears she was sure that were racing down the child's face lost in the rainwater, Paige knew the skies were mimicking the mood of the Kokiri.

"Is that so wrong?" Saria asked in a quiet voice that despite the roar of the rain seemed to echo through out the woods. "Blacky" the white wolfos, sensing the mood of her friend, nuzzled closer to Saria. "Is it wrong to be a child forever? What is so great about being an adult?" a bite of anger was starting to enter into Saria's normally angelic voice and a peal of lightening boomed from the sky. "Working all day… Worrying about this or that… growing gray, weak, old… Watching yourself and everything and everyone you know slowly decaying. What is so great about dying? I don't want those things to happen to him."

I have to agree with Eliezer here - stunningly good. I suspect that the problem you are facing is quite simple - at the end, Celestia dies. At the end, she did reject immortality, so readers interpreted that she was making a decision to rid herself of the 'curse' of immortality.

This story made me cry. It was very beautiful. Thank you for writing it.

I don't really understand how people misunderstood your story.

I don't get the "fall down and skin their knees" part. In order to learn your lesson, you have to survive.

I read this a few days ago; it simply didn't work for me, but I can't really say why.

Suggestion: If you want to write philosophical fiction and have meaningful discussion about it it might benefit to use a setting targeted an audience, you know..., older than eight.