[Link] More Right launched

post by mstevens · 2013-05-05T15:51:40.077Z · score: 13 (22 votes) · LW · GW · Legacy · 106 comments

Various people (including Konkvistador who has been talking about it the most) have launched their blog More Right

"A group blog, More Right is a place to discuss the many things that are touched by politics that we prefer wouldn’t be, as well as right wing ideas in general. It grew out of the correspondences among like minded people in late 2012, who first began their journey studying the findings of modern cognitive science on the failings of human reasoning and ended it reading serious 19th century gentlemen denouncing democracy. Surveying modernity, we found cracks in its façade. Findings and seemingly correct ideas, carefully bolted down and hidden, met with disapproving stares and inarticulate denunciation when unearthed. This only whetted our appetites. Proceeding from the surface to the foundations, we found them lacking. This is reflected in the spirit of the site."

106 comments

Comments sorted by top scores.

comment by Nisan · 2013-05-05T17:03:48.052Z · score: 28 (40 votes) · LW · GW

I hope this and other venues will draw discussions of race realism, pickup, etc., and associated metadiscussions away from Less Wrong.

comment by RomeoStevens · 2013-05-05T20:55:41.365Z · score: 10 (10 votes) · LW · GW

Agreed, and that's from someone who is interested in some of those discussions. I just don't feel they work well here.

comment by Raemon · 2013-05-05T23:01:55.657Z · score: 8 (8 votes) · LW · GW

I'm in the "glad there is a space for those conversations but that it is not here" camp. I'd have been worried that the self-selection of people who participate in the blog would distort in a different way than the posts here get, but that's alleviated somewhat by the closed-to-comments thing.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-06T18:23:23.309Z · score: 4 (6 votes) · LW · GW

This is actually the explicit purpose of the blog. See my comment here and here. Much like RomeoStevens I don't think the discussions here on the subjects are very productive. But I do think sane investigation & discussion of them are vital.

comment by gwern · 2013-05-06T18:24:08.240Z · score: 8 (14 votes) · LW · GW

I don't see how that can possibly happen with commenting disabled.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-06T18:37:16.481Z · score: 5 (9 votes) · LW · GW

Have you read the comment sections on right wing blogs? Mostly awful.

And you are wrong. Not only is there interaction between the authors but:

If you have something noteworthy to say about a particular article, email us at comments[at]moreright.net and we will add it there or even dedicate a separate post to it

We have recieved substantial feedback via that mechanism already. The letters to the editor system is superior to moderated comments when it comes to optimizing for high signal to noise ration while the monthly thread enables interaction between commentators and readers.

comment by Multiheaded · 2013-05-06T21:28:52.601Z · score: 15 (19 votes) · LW · GW

Sorry, Gwern is right. I would comment there, and I know that you have indeed been looking forward to my input in particular, and might even fast-track my letters due to having confidence that I make for an interesting opponent... but even with all that, the entry barrier is too damn high!

You're basically inviting me to write short but reasonably complete essays in which I'd have to cover the inferential distance from the opposite end of the ideological spectrum... explain where exactly I agree or disagree with your criticisms of the dominant liberal worldview... figure out how much I should adjust for Least Convenient Possible World and whether it'd make sense for me to concede some claims outright... provide an introduction to some schools of thought which a right-wing audience might've never encountered outside of a strawmanned pop-culture form [1] (and which even the MoreRight authors likely misunderstand in some subtle but crucial ways, as has been my impression whenever I tried to talk feminism with you)... explain why I think such traditions might have an advantage over an epistemic-learned-helplessness defense of conservative liberalism... provide such a defense where I feel I'm not learned enough or don't have a leg to stand on but still find the right-wing argument awful...

Shit, I've got a .txt file open right now with a Frankenstein's monster of a long comment intended to attack the neo-reactionary ideology with regards to issues of structural power and social dominance... epistemology and the biases/rationalizations caused by privilege (building on a "cheap shot" about your pals all being straight white tech-minded guys, having at least modest economic security, living in modern liberal democracies and communicating freely in a de facto libertarian-socialist network)... the way historical narratives are formed and how they relate to social psychology/self-image/intergroup relations (re: all conservative talk of a Relatively-Golden-Age)...

You might see where I'm going with this - or, rather, where I'd like to go. Been trying to hammer it into something at least comment-worthy, but the ideological challenges I see here are all interconnected and would all benefit from an optimized presentation... so it grows endlessly, and whichever angle I start shoring up, it ties into other perspectives and considerations...

And I would imagine that people who don't care much about such overarching socio-politico-epistemic ways of thought, and just wish to rebutt your criticisms of Modernity from a normal liberal/socialist/libertarian perspective, would get scared off too. High expectations for quality and tone + large inferential distances + restrictions of the medium + a potentially uncharitable reader base = ???

Frankly, I'm going to be surprised if you get to publish any substantial non-right-wing critical commentary from anyone other than Yvain. And that's only because he's already publicly undertaking such a challenge on his blog. Oh, well, and maybe TGGP. Can't imagine anyone else in the LW-sphere who'd brave all that time and effort.

1] Suggested mental exercise for the reader: attempt to briefly illustrate how the socioeconomic views of Ayn Rand and G.K. Chesterton, respectively, could be considered as being relatively closer to, and farther from, the worldview of Karl Marx. If you're feeling puzzled by the suggestion... well, I'm reasonably confident that your cached picture of Marx is an useless straw one. Here, for example, I cleared up just one particularly egregious bit. (A wealth of further reading.)

comment by Nornagest · 2013-05-06T23:44:58.205Z · score: 19 (19 votes) · LW · GW

Suggested mental exercise for the reader: attempt to briefly illustrate how the socioeconomic views of Ayn Rand and G.K. Chesterton, respectively, could be considered as being relatively closer to, and farther from, the worldview of Karl Marx.

Never mind Marx, that's pretty obvious if you know anything about the non-straw version of Ayn Rand's ideas. For all that she liked to frame her arguments in individualist terms, Rand's deal was basically all about a conflict between creative and exploitative classes as mediated by social and technological changes; her idea of the creative class just included people like entrepreneurs and financiers (though it's worth noting that her heroes were usually artists or engineers), and didn't include most ordinary laborers. Once you pick this up, Atlas Shrugged basically -- and not without some irony -- becomes Class Warfare: The Novel.

She and Marx also had similar ideas about the role of religion in the public sphere, and both liked to express their ideas as deriving from a small set of abstract principles (though Marx's take on it is basically Hegelian, and Rand's got some kind of strange quasi-Aristotelian thing going on). I haven't read as much Chesterton, but from what I gather he's more of a status-quo paleocon, and of course became famously Catholic.

comment by Multiheaded · 2013-05-07T02:45:41.312Z · score: 5 (5 votes) · LW · GW

Duh, you pass. Probably not an involved enough test, indeed. And Chesterton was quite a bit more complicated than that:

"Those who will not even admit the Capitalist problem deserve to get the Bolshevist solution"

"Even anarchy on the right side is better than order on the wrong side."

"Edmund Burke said it was impossible to draw up an indictment against a whole nation; but Edmund Burke detested the very idea of democracy. If Burke did not want the populace taken up as a criminal, it was simply because he did want it permanently taken care of as a lunatic."

"It is obvious that a revolution, like a war, is never right except when it is indispensable."

"An intelligent Conservative is not one who wishes to conserve things just as they are, for they never remain just as they are. An intelligent Conservative is one who believes our society is such that it can safely be left to evolve. An intelligent Revolutionist is not one who wishes to revolve; he is one who wishes to construct -- and therefore to destroy."

comment by bogus · 2013-05-06T22:00:59.762Z · score: 8 (8 votes) · LW · GW

Shit, I've got a .txt file open right now with a Frankenstein's monster of a long comment intended to attack the neo-reactionary ideology with regards to issues of structural power and social dominance... epistemology and the biases/rationalizations caused by privilege (building on a "cheap shot" about your pals all being straight white tech-minded guys, having at least modest economic security, living in modern liberal democracies and communicating freely in a de facto libertarian-socialist network)... the way historical narratives are formed and how they relate to social psychology/self-image/intergroup relations (re: all conservative talk of a Relatively-Golden-Age)...

I would be highly interested in reading such a post, either here at LW or somewhere else. You shouldn't worry too much about it becoming too long or its style being unsatisfactory; these are complicated issues, and getting some editorial commentary from other users would also help.

I do agree that More Right itself won't help much wrt. non-right-wing political commentary. Really, we need to start embracing friendly, benign factionalization and create a network, 'planet' or blogroll of political/rationalist venues inspired by other political ideologies. As you say, even just the inferential distances among differing worldviews and ideologies make a centralized treatment quite hopeless. And that's before taking all kinds of legitimate controversies into account, which mean that the 'network' approach will probably be trusted to a greater extent by potential users.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-07T07:16:58.006Z · score: 3 (7 votes) · LW · GW

I am just asking people to use their email client rather than their browser to write comments. And in a regular open thread they can write comments in the way they are used to when they primarily seek interaction with other readers or off topic discussion.

You underestimate how much nonrightwing people would be scared off by an actual right wing comment section. We are not therefore discussing expectations of quality or moderation here but only the trivial inconvenience of emailing them in.

I suspect your and gwerns comments are getting a lot of upvotes because of Far mode considerations and vague feelings of goodness around open discussion. Let me push that into Near mode and explain why unmoderated comments where never an option on the table. I very much expect that sooner or later we would end up at best with Unqualified Reservation's comment section or at worst with that of Alternative Right's. First I encourage the reader who is unfamiliar with them to google up both. Now tell me how many non right wing rationalists would comment there no matter how reasonable or interesting a hypotheticl article by an author?

The filter of moderation may keep interesting some comments at bay but eliminates far more of mindless politicking than pf the former. Ultimately that ratio is what I think matters.

comment by Multiheaded · 2013-05-07T07:46:56.867Z · score: 10 (10 votes) · LW · GW

This is easily checked, isn't it? I propose that you keep the current policy for a month, then switch to regular pre-moderated blog comments for a month.

For example - and sorry for descending to object-level current politics- I wanted to reply to Mike's off-hand mention of Putin as a successful and efficient modern authoritarian ruler with something along the lines of:
"Goddamnit, I actually live here, and I get to see the bureaucracy paralyzed with nepotism and corruption, the unsustainable loot-n-run resource-extracting economy, the barely functional public sector under perpetual directionless reform, the brewing sense of anger and despair due to social inequality, the uncontrollable and semi-criminal repressive apparatus, the growing cultural and ethnic rifts destroying what sense of shared identity us "Russians" had remaining..."
Yet such a simple listing of complaints about Mike's characterization doesn't feel like enough to fire up an email for, and I don't feel like going deeper into it. Would you view something like this as even marginally useful input?

Of course I agree that unmoderated comments would be a clusterfuck. Don't think anyone was suggesting otherwise.

comment by gwern · 2013-05-07T14:24:32.550Z · score: 5 (7 votes) · LW · GW

that sooner or later we would end up at best with Unqualified Reservation's comment section

Moldbug did that to himself by not bothering to moderate any comments, even to remove Chinese goldfarming and Viagra spam.

comment by Multiheaded · 2013-05-07T16:08:32.213Z · score: 10 (10 votes) · LW · GW

"Want to see amateurs in home-made crowns pretend to open kindergartens? barelyregal.com" - some commenter there.

comment by gwern · 2013-05-07T17:16:51.662Z · score: 4 (4 votes) · LW · GW

/checks site, is disappointed does not exist

comment by CronoDAS · 2013-05-08T21:27:11.873Z · score: 0 (0 votes) · LW · GW

http://xkcd.com/305/

comment by gwern · 2013-05-08T21:45:18.658Z · score: 2 (2 votes) · LW · GW

And of course, http://www.wetriffs.com/ (gallery ~NSFW) - but it's really stagnated these past few years. Guess it wasn't as hot as it seemed.

/is amused to note one LWer among the pics

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-07T14:29:46.456Z · score: 1 (1 votes) · LW · GW

Please reread the comment you replied to.

comment by gwern · 2013-05-07T14:57:11.902Z · score: 4 (6 votes) · LW · GW

Feel free to explain. I've read Unqualified Reservations. I've read it for years. The comment section went downhill the moment Moldbug decreed he would no longer read or reply it and stopped even bothering spam filtering. All that shows is zero moderation and no karma system of any kind doesn't work - which I don't think anyone here would be terribly surprised by or was arguing for.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-07T16:17:35.514Z · score: 0 (2 votes) · LW · GW

I was making the point that no moderation us terrible. With the implicit point that there isn't much difference between moderated comments and emailed in comments. See Larry Austers blog for an example (warning I don't agree with his positions).

comment by gwern · 2013-05-07T17:16:34.505Z · score: 6 (6 votes) · LW · GW

With the implicit point that there isn't muv difference between moderated comments and emailed in comments.

Which is stupid, and I refer you to my original comment, and particularly encourage you to re-read all articles and comments mentioning 'trivial inconveniences'.

comment by ArisKatsaris · 2013-05-08T10:13:46.066Z · score: 4 (4 votes) · LW · GW

With the implicit point that there isn't muv difference between moderated comments and emailed in comments.

There is, there really is. I don't mind at all posting a comment and accepting moderation, but I won't email anything to you. You can choose to be stubborn about accepting such a fact or you may not.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-08T21:35:10.927Z · score: 1 (1 votes) · LW · GW

So you are saying there is a great difference? Very well I accept that tho the reason for the difference illudes me. This makes me more interested in the outcome of email only than before.

comment by rhollerith_dot_com · 2013-05-08T01:47:10.103Z · score: 0 (0 votes) · LW · GW

"Not bothering to moderate"

Worse! He has admitted to not even reading them.

comment by NancyLebovitz · 2013-05-07T10:20:40.361Z · score: 3 (5 votes) · LW · GW

I can understand not wanting to write a long, well-thought out comment that might never be seen by most of the intended audience.

comment by drethelin · 2013-05-07T04:53:55.001Z · score: 1 (5 votes) · LW · GW

I think these long rants are exactly what they want to avoid.

comment by Multiheaded · 2013-05-07T07:21:05.251Z · score: 4 (4 votes) · LW · GW

I haven't been getting this impression while talking to Konkvistador. You know we're rather blunt with mutual criticism, so he would've cautioned me against it when considering my possible participation.

comment by gwern · 2013-05-06T18:56:05.373Z · score: 15 (19 votes) · LW · GW

Have you read the comment sections on right wing blogs? Mostly awful.

The average comment isn't too great on LW either.

We have recieved substantial feedback via that mechanism already.

And whatever feedback you have received, you would have received even more feedback. Nupedia vs Wikipedia - wait, is that example so excellent that you don't even know what Nupedia is? Closer to home, then: OB published everything sent to it, yet Eliezer discovered when LW was turned on that this 'trivial inconvenience' was inhibiting countless posts and submissions.

For example, I've told you on IRC how I think the tribalism post is bullshit, but I have zero interest in writing up an email and sending it off and the email either never being seen or at best quoted.

The letters to the editor system is superior to moderated comments when it comes to optimizing for high signal to noise ratio

And you've based this on careful experimentation, of course.

comment by NancyLebovitz · 2013-05-07T10:14:31.743Z · score: 21 (21 votes) · LW · GW

Have you read the comment sections on right wing blogs? Mostly awful.

The average comment isn't too great on LW either.

There's a large difference between "mostly awful" and "not too great".

comment by Eliezer Yudkowsky (Eliezer_Yudkowsky) · 2013-05-08T20:01:47.146Z · score: 9 (11 votes) · LW · GW

And whatever feedback you have received, you would have received even more feedback. Nupedia vs Wikipedia - wait, is that example so excellent that you don't even know what Nupedia is? Closer to home, then: OB published everything sent to it, yet Eliezer discovered when LW was turned on that this 'trivial inconvenience' was inhibiting countless posts and submissions.

Apparently these editors have decided that rather than getting as much activity as possible, they're willing to settle for smaller amounts of activity if it means they don't have to deal with all the shit you get by moderating after the fact. I can't fucking blame them the tiniest bit.

comment by RichardKennaway · 2013-05-06T22:55:08.406Z · score: 7 (7 votes) · LW · GW

Have you read the comment sections on right wing blogs? Mostly awful.

The average comment isn't too great on LW either.

This is the iron law of blogs and web forums: the quality of the average comment is always well below that of the average post.

comment by rhollerith_dot_com · 2013-05-08T01:45:22.648Z · score: 2 (4 votes) · LW · GW

This so-called iron law does not hold (and has never held) for Hacker News (which is 6.2 years old).

comment by JoshuaZ · 2013-05-06T20:27:07.458Z · score: 4 (4 votes) · LW · GW

I've told you on IRC how I think the tribalism post is bullshit, but I have zero interest in writing up an email and sending it off and the email either never being seen or at best quoted.

Could you give a quick summary here? I'd be interested in seeing it, since at a glance the post seemed reasonable to me.

comment by gwern · 2013-05-06T21:20:24.941Z · score: 12 (16 votes) · LW · GW

I don't especially want to defend my criticism, but my basic point was that quoting reams of material on tribal warfare does nothing at all towards addressing the LW 'tribalism' view of personal identity & group solidarity as fundamentally motivated cognition and is a giant non sequitur, and his attempt to contextualize the Byzantine isn't much better because pointing out that factions latched onto the mobs is like saying there is no such thing as xenophobia or nationalism because in China the xenophobic nationalist mobs protesting Korea or Japan are manipulated by the government and shut down when necessary - if people really are easily manipulated and propagandized as part of group conflict, you would expect various factions to exploit this.

comment by Intrism · 2013-05-07T03:11:53.962Z · score: 6 (8 votes) · LW · GW

More concisely, the article presents a long and elaborate rebuttal to the name "tribalism" without actually discussing the concept of tribalism at all. It also points out the fancy in Eliezer's fanciful example at great length.

comment by JoshuaZ · 2013-05-06T21:24:00.704Z · score: 1 (3 votes) · LW · GW

Thanks. That's a succinct and strong set of criticisms.

comment by shminux · 2013-05-06T19:58:00.073Z · score: 2 (4 votes) · LW · GW

And you've based this on careful experimentation, of course.

I so love your sarcasm when it is directed at someone else.

comment by Kaj_Sotala · 2013-05-23T15:50:23.801Z · score: 1 (1 votes) · LW · GW

OB published everything sent to it

The one post I sent to OB was rejected. (Which it deserved to be, since in retrospect it was pretty poor.)

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-06T21:25:42.601Z · score: 1 (7 votes) · LW · GW

Trivial inconvenience is a feature not a bug. I mentioned it explicitly when arguing for this system to be adopted for the early days of the blog. I may be wrong, but I think it acts as a filter for those who can't be bothered to expend the small amount of effort in reply. This correlates with a less useful reply.

This is not an encyclopedia gwern.

comment by gwern · 2013-05-06T21:44:11.871Z · score: 7 (13 votes) · LW · GW

This is not an encyclopedia gwern.

Yet, it is a group blog. Why, that sounds like my other example...

comment by rhollerith_dot_com · 2013-05-08T01:42:11.268Z · score: 0 (0 votes) · LW · GW

I will take your word that OB (the old OB before the creation of LW) published everything sent to it, but there was no way for a regular reader of OB to have become confident of that.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-07T19:05:09.742Z · score: 0 (0 votes) · LW · GW

The average comment isn't too great on LW either.

Still a helluva lot better than the average comment on (say) Youtube or Facebook.

comment by Eugine_Nier · 2013-05-07T01:05:20.997Z · score: 13 (17 votes) · LW · GW

Have you read the comment sections on right wing blogs? Mostly awful.

This sentence remains equally true if you remove the phrase "right wing" from it.

comment by shminux · 2013-05-06T19:59:32.930Z · score: 6 (6 votes) · LW · GW

With moderated comments over email only it's more akin to an old-style editor-reviewed column/journal than to a blog. Consider renaming.

comment by fubarobfusco · 2013-05-05T22:15:37.657Z · score: 4 (14 votes) · LW · GW

Very much agreed. I will be staying away, and will appreciate an absence of cross-linking or cross-posting.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-06T18:28:33.564Z · score: 4 (4 votes) · LW · GW

We didn't intend to crosspost here. However I do expect LessWrong readers will link to material and arguments such as the recent criticial look at our terminology in "Is “tribalism” a useful concept?" and obviously we will be linking to a lot of rationality related content in our own writing there, both on this site and elsewhere, because we otherwise simply won't be understood by many readers.

Edit: James has since decided to rather start his own blog and moved the article there, edited the link to reflect this. To give another example of a hopefully interesting post for even non-reactionary rationalists, I give Against Moral Progress.

comment by bogus · 2013-05-06T19:03:19.590Z · score: 9 (9 votes) · LW · GW

FWIW, I agree that 'factionalism' is a far better term than tribalism. In fact, I am surprised that this has not been pointed out before - as it happens, I think I have actually been using 'factionalism' (and 'faction') consistently to mean what others on this site seem to call 'tribalism', although I am not going to take any credit for this. Factionalism is the accepted term in politics and political science, and the term 'tribalism' (also, 'neotribalism', or 'new tribalism') has other uses, for instance advocacy of small, self-contained communities (not exceeding Dunbar's number of about 150 members) focused on a dense social network and relative egalitarianism.

comment by mstevens · 2013-05-06T21:51:23.023Z · score: 5 (5 votes) · LW · GW

I thought there was enough overlapping interest to be worth linking the launch. and I expect occasional posts may be interesting.

comment by Intrism · 2013-05-08T03:47:22.933Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

It appears that the tribalism post has vanished - the link has gone dead, and it's not on the main page anymore. What's up with that? Will it be coming back later?

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-08T09:37:17.881Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

James has changed his mind about participating, he said he will take a break from this time consuming hobby and start a new blog of his own in a month or two. I enjoyed his previous two ones a lot and am looking forward to his next one. He also asked if it was ok to move his posts there and I said it was.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-08T09:38:05.553Z · score: 2 (2 votes) · LW · GW

When he does I'll edit the link and content of above post to reflect that. I hope he does post them since I still miss some of the writing he deleted when he abandoned Writings.

comment by TimS · 2013-05-08T02:02:19.744Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

That post was at least 50% longer than necessary to make its point. There's no way that I would even try to respond to such a wall of text - and I agree with the conclusion of that particular post (Anyone who thinks the debate word "tribalism" refers to the practice of ancient tribes instead of in-group / out-groupism is deeply confused about history).

But again, there's no way I'm going to write an email to say essentially "I agree with the conclusion of the tribalism post, but do you really think anyone interesting to read is actually making that mistake?"

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-08T09:44:22.313Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

Updating on that example.

comment by J_Taylor · 2013-05-11T00:52:04.592Z · score: 2 (2 votes) · LW · GW

Unfortunately, I cannot look at the actual post and am merely trying to infer its contents based on posts on LessWrong. The only major argument I can make in favor of using the word "tribalism" is that the term has useful negative connotations:

"This is tribalist thinking." == "This is silly, savage thinking which we are trying to overcome as rationalists."

comment by Larks · 2013-05-06T13:55:58.170Z · score: 2 (18 votes) · LW · GW

Just so long as we don't end up with an asymmetrical effect, where the PUAs leave but the feminists stay.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-06T13:59:41.014Z · score: 4 (10 votes) · LW · GW

Because the PUA/feminist balance is symmetric right now?

comment by Larks · 2013-05-06T15:23:21.053Z · score: 10 (16 votes) · LW · GW

That's not at all necessary for my point to hold.

comment by Emily · 2013-05-22T22:19:16.379Z · score: -4 (10 votes) · LW · GW

Seriously? PUA is a kind of weird obsessive subculture. Feminism is the belief that women are people too. You think the first group leaving and the second staying would create an imbalance?

comment by Larks · 2013-05-24T22:58:48.702Z · score: 3 (5 votes) · LW · GW

Much as I hate to reply,

Feminism is the belief that women are people too.

is definitely false, because

I'm a feminist, but women are universally incapable of rational thought and shouldn't vote

cannot be coherently asserted, but

I believe people in comas are universally incapable of rational thought and shouldn't vote

can be coherently asserted, so it cannot be the belief that women are people that is generating the contradiction. Regardless of what else one might believe about feminism, I think this line of argument shows some it has both necessary moralised element and a necessary non-trivial positive element.

comment by Prismattic · 2013-05-25T01:26:25.162Z · score: 5 (5 votes) · LW · GW

While I disagree with the grandparent's conflation of the least extreme version of feminism with all feminism, I think you're being a bit obtuse about her intended connotation. It would be more typical lesswrongian language to phrase it as "Feminism is the belief that women are agents [and should be treated as such]".

comment by Larks · 2013-05-25T13:42:24.086Z · score: 1 (3 votes) · LW · GW

I think that's still insufficient.

I'm a feminist, and we should put all women in prison

cannot be coherently asserted, but

I believe murderers are agents who should be treated accordingly, and put in prison

can be coherently asserted, so it cannot be the idea that we should treat women as agents that is generating the contradiction. You also need some additional premises about women being agents with certain moral properties. Equally,

I'm a feminist, and women are all stupid

cannot be coherently asserted, but

I believe stupid people are agents who should be treated as such, and that they are all stupid

can be coherently asserted, so it cannot be the belief that women are agents and deserving of appropriate treatment that is generating the contradiction.

comment by Emily · 2013-05-29T08:30:52.125Z · score: 5 (5 votes) · LW · GW

I don't feel like getting into this debate right now, but I want to apologise for the tone and unwarranted brevity/sweepingness of my first comment. The comment I was responding to upset me and I responded more from upset than from thinking about the best way to make my point. I should have argued my point carefully and calmly or refrained from making it at all. I'm going to go with the latter in this thread, but I wanted to say sorry!

comment by Raemon · 2013-05-05T16:29:39.590Z · score: 14 (16 votes) · LW · GW

I am torn between finding the naming schema slightly distasteful and so clever that I have to give it a pass.

comment by Tenoke · 2013-05-05T17:09:28.001Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

Same but this lead me to add the RSS to my reader.

comment by Intrism · 2013-05-07T15:51:59.011Z · score: 2 (2 votes) · LW · GW

The name's a bit clever. However, I don't think it's a very good idea to make it so close to the name of a better-known website, as that makes it unusually prone to accidental corruption. This is made doubly unfortunate by the fact that contamination with the name "LessWrong" will invert the meaning; I've nearly flubbed it as "More Wrong" multiple times already.

comment by satt · 2013-05-09T00:46:01.722Z · score: 11 (11 votes) · LW · GW

Least it's not "Left Wrong".

comment by Raemon · 2013-05-07T16:08:45.547Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

Yeah, that's why I thought it was distasteful. But I'm a sucker for puns, and I find myself being more tickled by the cleverness than offended or worried.

Future_me may not be as amused.

comment by CrimeThinker · 2017-04-18T21:49:03.597Z · score: 0 (0 votes) · LW · GW

I thought it would be a great name if it was about seeking truth through spirituality as reversed to seeking truth through rationality. Or as opposed to anything specifically about politics in this case I guess.

comment by Qiaochu_Yuan · 2013-05-22T20:28:54.021Z · score: 6 (8 votes) · LW · GW

This blog is very annoying. First, for some reason you guys keep writing posts and deleting them or something; I got several RSS notifications for posts that subsequently didn't exist. Second, no comments means no opportunity to give feedback, even of the writing variety. For example, I don't understand the Parable of the Unstoppable Mad Man. The author writes like it's obvious what the mad man is, but I'm genuinely confused. (The typo in the third sentence didn't help either.) And what's the deal with the prisoner? I don't get this post at all.

Do you guys really think writing with no feedback is a good idea? (Requiring emails for comments is a deadly trivial inconvenience. You'll end up only getting feedback from the loudest people, which doesn't seem to correlate at all with the most useful feedback.)

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-26T09:31:28.444Z · score: 7 (7 votes) · LW · GW

First, for some reason you guys keep writing posts and deleting them or something; I got several RSS notifications for posts that subsequently didn't exist.

My apologies for the inconvenience and the tardy reply. One of the disappearing articles was my Parable of the Unstoppable Mad Man which I accidentally published out of order in the sequence, before Against Moral Progress. I have since reposted it.

The other four missing posts where those written by James Goulding. He decided to start his own blog and asked me if it would be ok to move his posts there, I said it would be. Looking back I now think this was a mistake on my part. You can read the articles with very minor changes there:

His site is interesting and well worth following in general. I will likely soon make an interesting links post where we will among other things share these with an explanation for why they aren't on the site anymore.

Having more experience with the interface future mistakes are now less likely. More importantly, because of readers feedback, I've decided that from now on I generally won't let people pull their old articles. Authors are still free to repost them wherever they want. I hope this addresses some of your complaints.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-26T09:45:02.323Z · score: 2 (2 votes) · LW · GW

Second, no comments means no opportunity to give feedback, even of the writing variety.

I've actually received a lot of feedback on that piece both in email and on twitter.

(The typo in the third sentence didn't help either.)

Well if it didn't have embarrassing typos how would anyone know it was written by me? ;) I've actually had cowriters scold me on several errors in that piece and I would have corrected it earlier this week but I've been working with very limited computer access in the past three months. Trying to edit articles in wordpress on my smartphone is a nightmare so I put it off until today when I finally got a home computer again and more importantly installed a spellchecker.

Do you guys really think writing with no feedback is a good idea? (Requiring emails for comments is a deadly trivial inconvenience. You'll end up only getting feedback from the loudest people, which doesn't seem to correlate at all with the most useful feedback.)

There are the open threads. But this is a policy we may change in the future, I'm particularly interested in how James' new approach will work out in the following weeks. What do you think of it?

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-26T15:33:36.659Z · score: 2 (2 votes) · LW · GW

James hasn't had much success with it by the looks of it, (only one person got through last I checked) but I certainly like the idea.

On the other hand, curated email exchanges are neat too.

comment by Larks · 2013-06-03T11:59:18.781Z · score: 0 (0 votes) · LW · GW

James hasn't had much success with it by the looks of it, (only one person got through last I checked)

If no comments is acceptable, some comments is better, and free comments is unacceptable, one comment sounds like it might be pretty good.

comment by Qiaochu_Yuan · 2013-05-26T19:52:00.972Z · score: 1 (1 votes) · LW · GW

I've actually received a lot of feedback on that piece both in email and on twitter.

Huh. This surprises me. Fair enough.

comment by ArisKatsaris · 2013-05-26T19:42:57.033Z · score: 1 (1 votes) · LW · GW

For example, I don't understand the Parable of the Unstoppable Mad Man. The author writes like it's obvious what the mad man is, but I'm genuinely confused.

The "mad man" is progressivism, demolishing the wall of the prison cell is something like "fighting for same-sex marriage" or "fighting against slavery" (or any other progressive cause that some random reactionary may be incidentally supporting) -- but if reactionaries help progressives in that one goal, then the progressives will move all the faster to some other more destructive cause that will have to be opposed.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-26T09:49:39.030Z · score: 1 (1 votes) · LW · GW

I don't understand the Parable of the Unstoppable Mad Man. The author writes like it's obvious what the mad man is, but I'm genuinely confused. And what's the deal with the prisoner? I don't get this post at all.

Did you miss it was the sequel to the post Against Moral Progress? If this is the case I should perhaps make sequences more explicit. But to clarify the post:

I will begin in shallow waters, examining why you might want to hinder primordial terrors even when they seem to be doing something good.

Who in particular the unstoppable mad man doesn't matter much for the message of the article which was aimed at meta not object level. I did some very light edits and would appreciate your input on if it makes this clearer.

comment by shminux · 2013-05-22T21:44:06.793Z · score: -6 (14 votes) · LW · GW

This blog is very annoying.

To say the least.

They are obviously not interested in providing a forum for unbiased discussions of their ideas. They just want a soapbox for them, nothing more. Which is fine, lots of groups do that. But this should not be confused with rational thought in any way, given how their motivated cognition runs rampant.

If they cared for some semblance of rational discourse, they would have invited a thoughtful charitable critique of their ideas, such as the one from Slate Star Codex, and then discussed it in a thoughtful charitable way. Maybe they will, eventually, who knows, but the chances are slim.

As it stands now, the blog has a long way to go to raise its level of discourse to that of, say, Salon or Fox News.

comment by John_Maxwell (John_Maxwell_IV) · 2013-05-07T07:17:34.554Z · score: 6 (6 votes) · LW · GW

Suggestion: if you're going to start a new group blog, look at the group blogs that are most popular (like Huffington Post, Daily Kos, Bleacher Report, etc.) and think about copying them. My suspicion is that the LW "shame them in to maintaining quality" model sucks, and instead you're better off encouraging the production of lots of content and then building filter mechanisms on top of that.

comment by NancyLebovitz · 2013-05-07T22:12:18.938Z · score: 6 (6 votes) · LW · GW

I've been underwhelmed with the comments at Huffington Post. I used to think (partly as a result of being NPR junkie and partly from being exposed to left-wing self-image) that liberals were reliably intelligent. HP comments proved I was wrong.

This doesn't mean I think typical right-wing comments are better.

Edited to add: Two other places which gave me a good impression of left-wing intelligence: Making Light and Alas, a Blog.

To be fair, Huffington Post is hardly one thing. Are there blogs there anyone would recommend as having good commenting communities?

comment by Prismattic · 2013-05-08T00:26:14.806Z · score: 2 (2 votes) · LW · GW

Nowhere is going to be at the level of Making Light, because TNH is an outlier in comment moderation.

Obsidian Wings and Crooked Timber sometimes-but-not-always have non-pointless comment sections. The League of Ordinary Gentlemen also falls in the sometimes-but-not-always high quality category. (Technically LOOG is more like 45/45/10 Liberal/Libertarians/Conservatives)

comment by NancyLebovitz · 2013-05-08T17:04:12.532Z · score: 2 (2 votes) · LW · GW

It's not just that TNH is an extraordinary moderator and chooser of moderators. Making Light built on rasfw news groups, and they* built on the long tradition of in-print sf fanwriting. Once upon a time, fanwriting was mostly personal essays rather than fiction-- this isn't a swat at fanfic, just an effort to counter availability bias.

comment by Intrism · 2013-05-07T15:44:34.774Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

I've never really observed that. Actually, my impression has always been that there's a profusion of firehose-style group blogs like Huffington Post or the Daily Kos (with LessWrong being an unusually successful version of these), but that slow, thoughtful, non-instant-response, essay-format content like More Right's present lineup can be hard to find. The only thing I'd suggest regarding content volume is that regular, frequent updates would be helpful.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-07T14:28:42.586Z · score: 1 (1 votes) · LW · GW

Good point, this is something to investigate.

comment by Thomas · 2014-03-14T11:42:25.272Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

Where are they now? No link is working for several days already. Are they renewing the internet infrastructure or what?

comment by [deleted] · 2015-05-25T00:37:42.950Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

comment by gwern · 2015-05-25T02:56:26.192Z · score: 2 (2 votes) · LW · GW

With the exception of Michael Anissimov we moved to The Future Primaeval.

What happened there?

comment by [deleted] · 2015-06-26T11:35:24.834Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

comment by [deleted] · 2015-05-25T14:05:12.676Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

comment by Randaly · 2013-05-05T21:27:01.008Z · score: 3 (7 votes) · LW · GW

Is it just me, or do you not have comments currently enabled?

comment by Vaniver · 2013-05-05T22:11:53.486Z · score: 13 (13 votes) · LW · GW

I believe this was a deliberate design choice:

Politics is difficult to talk about due to the human tendency to form coalitions and then insult the opposing side, so the comments are closed except on the monthly open thread. If you have something noteworthy to say about a particular article, email us at comments[at]moreright.net and we will add it there or even dedicate a separate post to it.

comment by Raemon · 2013-05-05T22:59:37.590Z · score: 4 (4 votes) · LW · GW

Ah, that does make sense.

comment by Eliezer Yudkowsky (Eliezer_Yudkowsky) · 2013-05-08T20:17:06.174Z · score: 2 (8 votes) · LW · GW

Ever moderated anything? (Curious.) And that is far, far, far from the only unpleasant experience I've ever had as a moderator.

comment by gwern · 2013-05-08T20:32:33.224Z · score: 11 (13 votes) · LW · GW

I moderate gwern.net obviously, a few subreddits, #lesswrong, and worked on Wikipedia for >6 years & 100k edits and as an administrator in addition to adminning the Haskell wiki for several years and currently the LW wiki. Any of that count?

comment by Eliezer Yudkowsky (Eliezer_Yudkowsky) · 2013-05-08T20:42:56.708Z · score: 0 (8 votes) · LW · GW

Based on priors for expected shit? The Wikipedia part and the subreddits, maybe - it depends on whether you're identifiable to them as the one responsible, or just another face in the crowd of moderators. Haskell might be too technical although I would also expect it to attract nonconformists. I don't know how gwern.net works.

comment by gwern · 2013-05-08T21:06:09.798Z · score: 7 (9 votes) · LW · GW

I think I've dealt with enough shit on Wikipedia - over the Bogdanov affair, if nothing else, maybe you've heard of it? - to be able to tell you that you brought a lot of this shit on your own head, which was my original point before we began swinging moderator-dicks around.

comment by Eliezer Yudkowsky (Eliezer_Yudkowsky) · 2013-05-08T21:13:48.937Z · score: 4 (8 votes) · LW · GW

Shit has increased by maybe 20% since l'affaire B. I think this may be partially due to the poor design of LW which makes deletions visible. I'm really impressed by Facebook's lovely user experience - when I get a troll comment I just click the x, block the user and it's gone without a trace and never recurs.

What I'd really like to do is to be able to move whole comment threads to a /meta subreddit, thereby banishing them from the flow of productive discussion without destroying information. Then it would also be easy and safe to give all posters the ability to banish comments from their posts, including comments complaining about their moderation and so on, and not have to worry about it if they didn't want to. I don't know if we'll ever have the programming resources for that.

comment by gwern · 2013-05-08T21:22:31.521Z · score: 15 (15 votes) · LW · GW

I think this may be partially due to the poor design of LW which makes deletions visible.

Maybe, but it's probably also going to be the userbase causing an extremer form of the Streisand effect. I mean, deleting comments? You might as well wave a red flag and say 'hey nerdy libertarian free-speech guys - please pattern-match onto censorship to be righteously opposed, thanks!' Facebook is a different interface, but also a different userbase with a different set of expectations.

comment by Eliezer Yudkowsky (Eliezer_Yudkowsky) · 2013-05-08T21:37:32.465Z · score: 5 (7 votes) · LW · GW

I've certainly learned my lesson about the Streisand effect. With respect to everything else, I think I can manage to not care where they scream so long as they're not doing it anywhere it's visible to an LW user who doesn't make a special effort to see it.

comment by wedrifid · 2013-05-09T16:11:21.288Z · score: 6 (6 votes) · LW · GW

Then it would also be easy and safe to give all posters the ability to banish comments from their posts ... I don't know if we'll ever have the programming resources for that.

Thank Cthulhu for small favors.

comment by yli · 2013-05-09T02:33:14.369Z · score: 3 (3 votes) · LW · GW

programming resources

Since you've mentioned this before, here's an offhand idea for how to maybe get some: put an announcement on the sidebar or banner asking for developers (and maybe noting that LW is open source - so it's ok to ask people to work for free), that's visible on every page and that links to a page with your list of wanted features and instructions for how to get involved. There could be a bunch of potential developers that don't even know LW needs them, since the subject has only come up in some comment threads. Maybe you guys have already thought of this or know of a reason it wouldn't work, just wanted to put it out there.

comment by Barry_Cotter · 2013-05-09T15:11:06.367Z · score: 1 (1 votes) · LW · GW

How gnarly is the reddit/lesswrong codebase? $5000 worth sounds terrifying to one with a shaky, Learn Python the Hard Way knowledge of programming and very basic familiarity with html, css and sql. But I'm probably going to be taking 4 hours a day five days a week for a month this summer to try and make myself hirable as a junior programmet this summer and work that valuable would make an awesome portfolio piece, paid or not. It would certainly make one a shoo in for Hacker School.

comment by Eliezer Yudkowsky (Eliezer_Yudkowsky) · 2013-05-09T20:17:13.951Z · score: 1 (1 votes) · LW · GW

...it's probably gnarlier than a month of work when you've just read one book on Python, I'm afraid.

comment by komponisto · 2013-05-13T05:52:04.175Z · score: -1 (1 votes) · LW · GW
comment by Viliam_Bur · 2013-05-13T06:46:40.566Z · score: 0 (0 votes) · LW · GW

Some people who work professionally with Python found it too difficult. I tried to find someone who would be able to make a few small changes so that I can use it for my website... but at this moment I believe that rewriting the whole thing from scratch would be at least 10 times easier.

comment by [deleted] · 2013-05-08T21:42:28.584Z · score: 4 (4 votes) · LW · GW

Responding to a deleted comment is a bit weird. Knowing what was there beforehand, you could have quoted some of the non-objectionable part.