post by [deleted] · · ? · GW · 0 comments

This is a link post for

0 comments

Comments sorted by top scores.

comment by Nanda Ale · 2022-03-14T22:30:21.254Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

What do you think of these theories?

3 theses on the Russian-Ukrainian war:

1. Putin's decision to start the war on Ukraine isn't foreign policy. It's domestic one. Putin first consolidated his power through the war in 1999-2000 and it worked. So he repeated this trick every time his popularity started waning🧵


Putin was confirmed as the Prime Minister on 16 August 1999. By that point Yeltsin chose him as a successor and Putin controlled intelligence. But he still had to stand on elections - and he was unknown. His rate of approval was between 3-4% because ppl didn't recognise his face


Just two weeks later apartment bombings started. Since September 4, a number of residential houses in Moscow, Volgodonsk, Buinaksk were blown up. More than 300 people died, 1700 were wounded. Putin accused Chechen terrorists in these attacks and invaded the separatist region


He won. In the course of the war he built his 
as a tough victorious military leader. And Russian public opinion likes victorious military leaders. By the end of the year with the Chechen resistance largely crushed, he became very electable. That's how he became a President


Of course, the entire story with so timely blown up houses looked kinda shady. There were certain suspicions regarding who really organised these attacks, especially in the context of the Ryazan case


With all these explosions, the country became vigilant. On September 22 Alexey Kartofelnikov living on Novoselov 14/16 in Ryazan noticed a strange white car parked near their residential building. Its passengers took several bags and brought them into the basement of the house


After the strangers left, locals called the police. Police came and found several large bags from sugar - with a detonator. People were evacuated and the police expertise showed that the bags contain hexagon. Next day it became the national news - the media were still free


Prime Minister Putin congratulated them with preventing a terrorist attack. The same night police (police is MVD - different from FSB) arrested two suspects. To their surprise they showed the FSB IDs. Ofc Moscow HQ of FSB called the police and ordered to release their agents


Next day Putin gave a different version. Now he said that those were simply the trainings, the manoeuvres. The FSB was learning how to prevent terror attacks and these bags contained regular sugar. The detonators were fake


It all sounded shady. But the military planes were already raising Grozny to the ground. Successful invasion that followed changed the electoral balance completely. In August 1999 2% voters would vote for Putin, in 2000 - 53% did. Russian people love victorious wars


So, it worked. And that's how the institutional inertia dynamics commence. Whatever worked out in the past, will likely work out again. So why bother with making up new ideas if older ones are completely reliable? And indeed, reliable they were


In 2010s Putin was clearly losing popularity. Fraud on the parliamentary elections of 2011 triggered the largest street protests since Putin came to power. That was a bad marker. Economy was rising, quality of life improving. And many were still angry


But streets protests could be ascribed to a politicised minority, whereas silent majority supported him. That's why he confidently came to a boxing championate to give a speech, with the federal TV broadcasting it in real time. And he was booed with millions people watching


That was a heavy blow. He came to power as a victorious military leader. But now, 11 years later, ppl didn't recognise him as such. They saw him as a pathetic gerontocrat with too much botox fillings. He became a joke. So he had to take urgent action to be treated seriously again


His popularity falling, he had to restore his 
as a serious leader. How? Well, by winning wars. Again, he initially built his legitimacy through a military victory, so why not do it again? Thus Russia engages into wars: Syria, Ukraine, Africa. Domestic policy by other means


So the real audience of this play are neither Ukrainians, nor Westerners. It's Russians. Of course many won't wholeheartedly support the war. But it will make them take Putin seriously. And for Putin it's much better to be regarded as bloody and merciless, rather than ridiculous


2. Many in the West exaggerate how robust the Putin's regime is. It's not only dependent on Western technologies and imports, it also can't decrease its dependence without a renegotiation of power balance. Which means it exists only as long as the West doesn't take action


Infrastructure-wise there is one thing it's doing well - building and maintaining communications for exporting raw materials. Railways, pipelines, seaports


And yet, sanctions obstruct development of new oil or gas deposits. There are new deposits introduced, but they don't compensate the depletion. Theoretically Russia has huge deposits, but they're primarily on Arctic shelf and Russia lacks the technology to extract them alone


Russia is not the USSR. The USSR was a theocracy legitimised through technological progress, which valued scientists and engineers highly. Modern Russia doesn't. Consider salaries which state corporation offers to aerospace engineers - kinda 150 usd/month


That's important to keep in mind. Unlike USSR, Russia doesn't value people who produce stuff. It's not prestigious, it doesn't pay. So whoever can leave to the IT and work for international market directly, will do it. There's huge negative selection in production of hardware 
Which means that Russian industry, including military, is highly dependent upon Western technologies and equipment. Precision manufacturing is done on German, Swiss, Italian machines. Production of literally anything complicated continues only as long as it is allowed to continue


3. What will be the result of this war? That largely depends on Western, primarily American reaction. If Putin manages to win a small victorious war again and get away with that, it will not only increase his authority but trigger tons of terrirotiral conflicts all over the world


Let's be honest, in most countries there're groups who believe that their neighbours occupy a piece of our sacred land illegitimately. That's very typical feeling and usually it's mutual. The only reason why wars over the land don't happen more frequently is the fear of reprisals


If this invasion succeeds and Putin gets away with it, this will trigger a chain of imitators waging their small victorious wars all over the world. More powerful powers than Russia will certainly do, less powerful ones will try their chance, too. That will be a very bloody era


Paradoxically enough, even the military defeat of Russia is not necessary to prevent that scenario. Simply Putin losing his power would be enough as a warning. And counterintuitively, that would likely result naturally if he doesn't achieve a quick victory


There's a big difference between an easy war and a hard war. An easy war makes regime stronger because it achieves victory without having to transform. But a hard war will transform it. The longer WWI lasted, the more the real power over Germany flowed from Kaiser to Ludendorff


Russia plays hard. But hard war is incompatible with the state security rule. They aren't guys who do stuff, they are the guys who find wrongdoings in the work of others. Critics, not doers. So once the war becomes existential, power will start flipping from their hands. End of🧵

https://twitter.com/kamilkazani/status/1496711906412933121

https://threadreaderapp.com/thread/1496711906412933121.html

Replies from: superads91, Dojan
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-14T22:59:44.369Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

To be honest, all 3 look extremely likely, in fact much more likely than all other hypothesis I've ever heard, both on this thread and elsewhere. It's always about money and power, way more than nationalism or a bunch of yes-men around Putin. The things that some humans are willing to do for power... Thanks

comment by Dojan · 2022-03-17T04:30:57.916Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I would add that overt US intervention might trigger a wave of patriotism in Russia too, and enable Putin to spin the whole thing as a war of survival. Which it very well might be at that point, I for one do not think a No-Fly-Zone -like conflict would stay restricted to Ukraine, or to the sky for that matter. Seen in that light Putins trade off matrix before the war might have looked like a win-win; Either the US doesn't intervene, and then he can take Ukraine easily: Or, the US does intervene, and then he can blame the capitalist world order. The worst outcome is Ukraine repelling him without the US.

comment by Dojan · 2022-03-15T00:31:14.603Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think the idea of NATO as an ideologically neutral, purely defensive alliance is a very western perspective. I think Putins perspective of NATO is more akin to our picture of the Warsaw Pact: Neutral defense on paper, but blatant ideological warfare and power projection in practice and intent. If you view NATO in that light (whether accurate or not), NATO's expansion eastward following the fall of the USSR looks like a blatant power grab while Russia was weakened. If you also have a view of all the former parts of USSR as essentially part of the "real" Greater Russia, the expansion of NATO into not only former Warsaw Pact members, but USSR states as well looks exceptionally aggressive. 

A faulty comparison, but perhaps useful as an intuition pump: 
Imagine if the USSR hade in fact "won" the Cold War in a similar fashion to how the West did; by essentially economically outproducing the USA, until it collapsed financially (only one limited version of events I know, but bear with me), resulting in many US states being left to their own devices after the shattering of the Union, all media being invaded by communist propaganda, and lots of Eastern thinkers and commentators having an opinion on the NewUS's constitution and internal affairs. You asked them then to guarantee your safety, and in response got vague promises of being left alone. In the years that followed, before the NewUS had time to re-consolidate, the Warsaw Pact expanded (by propaganda and bribery) to include most of Europe, Central America, and Mexico. It didn't change in character, instead it grew rich, but lazy and complacent with it's own success, ever self-righteous and condescending. The newly (temporarily?) independent states of Alaska, Arizona and New Mexico followed a few years later, over your protests. By the time the NewUS is starting to emerge from the ashes and have some power to wield again, however hobbled and outmatched, the independent state of FloriTexas, representing a huge portion of former US population and influence, and by many considered part of the former USA's "heartland", starts the process of joining the Warsaw Pact. This process involves the careful dismantling of everything a patriot would call "American" about the place. You were a lowly CIA spy when the old US fell, but you're now the President of the remaining 32 states, and have been pleading, arguing and maneuvering for the communist states to Just Leave The Fuck Alone, Like you Promised but to no avail. The people around you in government are weak and have lost vision. You yourself are growing old. If you ever want to realize the dream of a reunited USA, FloriTexas is the Line in the Sand, the Last Chance for that to ever be possible. A Fall from Grace, and a Destiny Unfulfilled. What do you do?

Of course there are many problems with this comparison. I won't try to list them all here, think of it only as an intuition pump. But in this view, the Warsaw Pact/NATO looks very threatening.

Even taken at face value, this represents at best a caricature of the Nostalgic/Patriotic USSR perspective, and of course Putin is a shrewd intelligent man who probably won't adhere to any such simplistic narrative. But to the extent that I understand what is going on at all, I think this tugs at similar heartstrings. Tugging heartstrings is of course not the same as legitimization. Among many other problems, this view of NATO and "westernization" doesn't care about democracy or national self-determination at all. But of course, that seems to be quite true for Putin. 

Now, that being said, I don't agree with the view of NATO as purely a neutral defense pact. It in fact places clearly ideological conditions on it's members, some of which are overtly political: (emphasis mine) "Countries aspiring for NATO membership are also expected to meet certain political, economic and military goals in order to ensure that they will become contributors to Alliance security as well as beneficiaries of it.". There is also the fact that the USSR tried to join NATO when it was first formed (or rather, they called the bluff on it's neutrality), and both Gorbachev and Putin have allegedly floated the idea since (wikipedia source only, sorry no time), but it was dismissed as "a dream".

So much for the historical backdrop. As for the war itself, it does of course look like a huge mistake right now, from the western media perspective. I am leaning towards that perspective holding up, but that is not quite settled yet I think. It is largely based on the premise that Putin thought he would win in a few days, which is often recited, but I have only seen a few smallish pieces of evidence for this myself (could easily be that I missed it, please enlighten me. Mainly the accidental(?) publishing and subsequent retraction of pre-written news articles lauding Russian success). If Putins plan all along was to slowly but surely take Ukraine using slowly advancing tank columns supported by heavy artillery, like the Russian army does best, then it would have been in the US interest to oversell Putins plan to start with, so that he looks weak now that negotiations are starting. There might be some of this going on, but in the end I think I basically buy the "huge mistake" theory. Taking Crimea was a huge success for Putin domestically, and was very easy for him to pull off at the time. It could have worked a second time.

This is only my take, apply salt as needed. I am but a lone keyboard warrior in a big big sea of history, propaganda and geopolitics.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T10:16:41.094Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"This is only my take, apply salt as needed. I am but a lone keyboard warrior in a big big sea of history, propaganda and geopolitics."

It was a good one. But the main problems come, indeed, from its central metaphor, which flaws (which you acknowledge) can't be ignored.

The US can't be compared to the Warsaw Pact and the USSR. US states don't have any history pre-US (not civilization-wise at least, and their former claimers have been ethnically anihilated too), whereas all of these Warsaw pact nations had a clear history outside of the connection to the Warsaw Pact and the USSR. A clear distinct identity, on all levels.

What is also obvious but can't be ignored is the mere differences between NATO and Warsaw Pact. I'll start by saying that NATO is far from perfect and the West is far from being free from corruption, but compared to the Russian dominance, they're heaven. Democracy, human rights, economic development, freedom. It's understandable that nations want to join NATO, but don't want to join the Warsaw Pact or ally with modern Russia. They are seduced into the former, but coerced into the latter. That's why you can't compare NATO expanding West, with Warsaw Pact expanding East.

So I don't really think that that comparison leads anywhere, nor do I think that Putin and the regime are naive enough to actually believe in it, aka to believe in their own propaganda. To pull a few heartstrings, that's much more plausible. But then, my doubt still stands whether those heartstrings paint the full picture.

"Now, that being said, I don't agree with the view of NATO as purely a neutral defense pact. It in fact places clearly ideological conditions on it's members, some of which are overtly political: (emphasis mine) "Countries aspiring for NATO membership are also expected to meet certain political, economic and military goals in order to ensure that they will become contributors to Alliance security as well as beneficiaries of it.""

Well, neutral it isn't. It certainly is pro-Western values, and its members must have such basic values like democracy, as well as some basic economic and military power "to ensure that they will become contributors to Alliance security as well as beneficiaries of it" (self-explanatory). Doesn't mean it wants to invade the world's greatest nuclear power (aka commit planetary suicide).

But then, there's once again the question whether these basic Western values of democracy and human rights are really specifically Western, or whether only the West has been fortunate enough to develop the political structure/ability to implement them. Are most Russians and Chinese, deep down, pro "Western" values? I believe they are. No wonder "everyone" wants to join NATO! Poor people just want freedom and protection. If that's expansionism, then I'm all for it. (Still doesn't equate to the suicidal act of invading the world's greatest nuclear power because we don't like them.)

Replies from: matto, Dojan
comment by matto · 2022-03-15T11:55:41.333Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Another point to the NATO-Warsaw Pact comparison:

  • In 1958, Hungary wanted independence from the Stalinist USSR, so the Pact threw over thirty thousand troops at the problem, resulting in "repression of the Hungarian Uprising killed 2,500 Hungarians and 700 Soviet Army soldiers, and compelled 200,000 Hungarians to seek political refuge abroad."
  • In 1968, Czechoslovakia wanted to enact liberal reforms, but the Pact interfered by invading Czechoslovakia with over a quarter million troops along with tanks and aircraft. As a result, I believe about a hundred civilians were killed, and the conflict lead to "a wave of emigration, largely of highly qualified people, unseen before and stopped shortly after (estimate: 70,000 immediately, 300,000 in total)

Compared to that, NATO seems much more of a neutral defense pact--for example, despite the increasingly illiberal governments in Poland and Hungary today, I have heard no mention of using NATO to ~imbue their evil hearts with liberal values~ correct the situation.

Also, speaking to the "Poor people just want freedom and protection" point, from talking with my parents it seems like freedom is a lesser value (less understood, less sought after). The two big ones though are security, especially from the big, aggressive neighbor to the east, and prosperity, in which the difference between the West and those countries behind the iron curtain was vast.

Replies from: ChristianKl, Dojan
comment by ChristianKl · 2022-03-16T14:40:12.396Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Compared to that, NATO seems much more of a neutral defense pact--for example, despite the increasingly illiberal governments in Poland and Hungary today, I have heard no mention of using NATO to ~imbue their evil hearts with liberal values~ correct the situation.

There's no way you can establish democratic norms directly by using offensive military power in Poland or Hungary. That's in the nature of what democracy is about. 

When it comes to more covert military power, it's hard to know to what extent the surveillance powers get used to affect the politics of those countries. 

comment by Dojan · 2022-03-15T13:52:21.385Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I fully agree. My point was not that NATO and the Warsaw Pact were morally comparable or equivalent. They are not. They were comparable in a strategic, power-balance sense however. For some people, that is all they see. See also longer response above.

comment by Dojan · 2022-03-15T13:46:50.586Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I basically agree. My aim was to provide a-way-to-see-the-war-that-makes-sense, not a solid argument for it's moral validity. Which I don't think is possible. Obviously. But doing my very best to steelman it might give hints as to the real reasons. 

With that in mind, here are some further thoughts/nitpicks:

"The US can't be compared to the Warsaw Pact and the USSR." 
Can you compare apples and oranges? Well, famously not. And they taste very different. But they are still both food. As a matter of history, I totally agree that "the free state of FloriTexas" makes no sense whatsoever, and is a terrible analogue for Ukraine. That part was merely trying to pump intuitions. But NATO and the Warsaw Pact are both still power projections on the geopolitical stage, and in many ways the same sort of entity (Explicitly so: The Warsaw Pact was created to balance NATO), however different the values they represent. The US and the USSR/Russia (as well as both the EU and China for that matter) are also very different from each other. Yet they all have the superpower-competing-at-the-world-stage nature. If you view the world as a game board, they are the principal different colors that have amassed lots of pieces, and are posturing and threatening and playing each other for advantage, even if the types of pieces are often very different. Some pieces looks like 'nuclear warheads'. Other pieces looks like 'moral validity'. These are very different, yet both grant enormous power to the wielder, and can indeed sometimes be used as direct counters to each other. Now of course, you and I care about moral validity in itself, as an intrinsic value for it's own sake, just like we are against nuclear warheads: But if all you see is the power game, they are both just pieces. This is not a complete view of their entire natures, but it is a true one. Narrow, but true. 

It is indeed understandable that countries want to join NATO and the EU, and for all the right reasons. This involves Putin loosing pieces, thus he will oppose. It only makes sense for him to oppose, he is playing the game. Of course he feels threatened by NATO absorbing the old USSR states. He is loosing pieces. And of course we applaud and support this victory of democracy and moral values. This merely means that we are enemies of Putin. Thus the conflict. 
When people say that "the West started it" by expanding NATO, this is what they mean I think. And maybe, just maybe, the fledgling Russian Federation would have felt safer and less pressured if NATO hadn't added Poland, Hungary and the Czech Republic to it's territory in March of 1999, and maybe, just maybe, someone more diplomatic and friendly to the West than Putin would have then been chosen to replace Boris Yeltsin 6 months later. Maybe. Personally I doubt it. But I think this is a very reasonable line of argument. If the West won't stop playing for power, then it's hard to expect the weakened Russia to stop. Maybe if NATO had ben dissolved in the mid 90's. Maybe if Russia had been formally asked to join. I would have liked to see more effort made in this regard. Either way, invasion is not the way in which NATO threatens Putin.

"NATO is far from perfect"
My biggest gripe with NATO is not corruption or other such imperfections, but it's intrinsic meddling-superpower nature. To be sure, the US had done it's fair share of coercion too over the years. (I am not claiming that the US is "just as bad". Merely that it is some degree of bad, and that I am vehemently against that part. The USSR, Russia and China are all clearly a lot worse. I am against that a lot more. If backed into a corner I will join the US/NATO every time. I hope I don't get backed into a corner. And I hope that everyone can be less bad going forward.)

"No wonder "everyone" wants to join NATO!"
I live in Sweden, which is not part of NATO. I really don't want to have to join, and I would be very sad if it came to that. I think the world would be better if superpowers did less meddling and grandstanding (naive, I know, still), and NATO is directly contrary to that wish. Yet Putin acting the way he is acting now is pretty much the only thing that could force me to agree to a NATO membership. 
A perhaps more selfish reason that I don't want to join NATO is that Sweden would be required to send troops if, for example, China took Guam. That would be a terrible development, but should not involve Sweden. At least not definitely, pre-determinedly, obviously, involve Sweden.

"[Are] Western values of democracy and human rights [...] really specifically Western"
I think no, in the sense that they are not intrinsically western, or that no other people hold them. I think yes, in the sense that it is the values that the Western powers are in fact championing. Kind of like how the ideals of Communism weren't inherently Eastern (there were and are still communists in both Europe and the US), but were in fact championed by Estern Powers.

"If that's expansionism, then I'm all for it"
I guess this sums up my point pretty neatly. That is indeed what Western expansionism is. I am not "all for it", I am rather very conflicted about it. I'm all for the democracy and freedom and so forth, but not the geopolitical power projection that tends to come with it. On the other hand I'm definitely for defending those values against attack, and when non-democratic power tries to do it's power projection, I am for countering it. We might have been able to play this better in the past, I'm not sure. In regards to Ukraine, this was a complicated question until Putin started overtly using force, then it became very simple (simple in principle, the game still has to be played on the object level).

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T15:08:20.920Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Of course I'm aware of the geopolitical board game. I never doubted that Russia had a lot to gain with gaining back the pre-2014 Ukrainian loyalty. Or that Ukraine's democracy threatens Putin's regime. Or that such things are immoral (from Russia). Or that this war is immoral.

My only doubts come from the fact that I really don't see this war a net-gain for Russia in those regards. It has nothing to do with moral shock or being oblivious about the geopolitical game. It is, indeed, a geopolitical consideration.

"Either way, invasion is not the way in which NATO threatens Putin."

True, the threat of having a protected democracy on his doorstep is a potential political threat to his regime. But not eminent, and he won't live forever. That's why, while in other comments I've considered it one of the strongest "real motives" to me, it still feels insufficient.

We can be against Western expansionism as much as we want, but without it, half the world would be living much worse lives, from North America, to Australia, to Japan and South Korea (cultural expansionism), to even the rest of Asia who have also benefited from such cultural expansionism. Also, if the West hadn't expanded this much, both culturally and politically, our way of life today would be in much more danger. We would stand a lot less strong today. Perhaps wouldn't even exist as liberal democracies.

One thing is to try to do it while avoiding (nuclear) war. But to be against it is naive. Everybody wants to rule the world. It's better if the good guys do it.

Replies from: Dojan
comment by Dojan · 2022-03-15T16:06:23.138Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The way the war is currently turning out does not seem to be a benefit to Putin at all, almost regardless of what happens next. Thus I don't think it is going according to his plan, whatever his motives were. I don't think that is in question, and I'm not seeing anyone arguing differently. They question as I understood it is rather about why it might have seemed a good idea in the first place, and that is what I tried to address.

By the way, this is a good thread that has helped me clarify my own thoughts on the subject :) Don't be discouraged by the fact that asking for an explanation of something that seems to break your world-model inevitably invites lots of arguments against that model. I also often find myself defending the position of the very question I posed, while trying to understand. Thank you for posting!

 

The different question about the cost-benefit analysis of western expansionism in general is a larger topic, that I won't debate deeply here. If you want to have that debate, lets start a new thread or something, though I am not claiming to be a great source or representative against that view, merely that I don't hold it unreservedly. Let it only stand that your motivation stated above is one side, the traditionally American side, and that not all westerners agree with that assessment. I can try to give a surface level summary of my position here if you would like.

Replies from: superads91, superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T17:15:53.858Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"Thank you for posting!"

My pleasure.

comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T16:45:20.423Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"The way the war is currently turning out does not seem to be a benefit to Putin at all, almost regardless of what happens next. Thus I don't think it is going according to his plan, whatever his motives were. I don't think that is in question, and I'm not seeing anyone arguing differently."

I'm a bit skeptical about that, even though you're right about it being the general consensus. But of course, the Western media will say anything to make Putin look weak, so there is a bit of artificiality there.

Why I'm skeptical? Because why would anyone think that it would be cake to invade a country of 44 million when yours is only about triple the population, and whose military numbers are also about only triple? Russia sent 200.000 troops to Ukraine, that's also the number is total active Ukrainian troops, but they have another 900.000 reservists, plus several million fighting-age men who have been prohibited to leave the country. This is not to question Russia's superiority - of course air warfare is the most important, and that's where Russia is clearly superior, and therefore will win the war. But to think they would win in a few days? C'mon, who really believes that?

It's totally different from Crimea, a non-country of a few million where most are ethnic Russians, or Georgia, also just a couple million.

Even the invasion of Chechnya in 1999, which has only a million people, resulted in a bloody war that extended for 10 years.

Therefore, when Russians say "we're gonna take Kyiv in 3 days", that's nothing but trying to intimidate the enemy. And when Westerners really believe that that was the plan, it's both believing their propaganda and saying "A-ha, you've failed!" for political purposes.

Seriously, I don't really know how so many people are buying this.

"They question as I understood it is rather about why it might have seemed a good idea in the first place, and that is what I tried to address."

Maybe it always has seemed like a good idea, but for some less obvious reasons. That's where I stand. Either that, or the plan was flawed from the beginning. Or irrational/passional.

Replies from: Dojan
comment by Dojan · 2022-03-15T21:15:17.386Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I certainly believed that Russia could take Ukraine in a few days. That Ukrainian forces would be simply overwhelmed with heavy weaponry. So did the alleged Russian soldiers who packed parade uniforms rather than food, their alleged schedules of orders printed on paper in lieu of radio communication, and the apparently pre-prepared Russian media reports of Russian victory after only a few days. I acknowledge that some of this is probably propaganda, but I note that both sides seems to have been essentially saying the same thing here, and also that it seems much more plausible for Putin to come out on top if it had in fact gone according to that plan, and thus much more plausible for him to have gone ahead with the attack in the first place if he thought that was a likely outcome. After all, the Coalition forces took Iraq in only a matter of weeks with comparable numbers of troops. Of course, that is turning into a very inadequate comparison, but I was certainly under the impression of Russia as a "near peer adversary", similar in capabilities to the US, a view that is falling apart rapidly. This change in optics in itself is a massive, massive loss for Putin, plausibly bigger than the outcome of the war itself.

If this was obviously false to you ahead of time I applaud your ability to (seemingly at least) do better than most public military analys in the west over the last decade or more. I certainly did not. And judging by how the war is going, neither did Putin. I agree that 10 years in Chechnya, or the US in Afghanistan for that matter, should be counted as evidence against this view, and that it is indeed not holding up. This incompatibility indicates to me that Putin really did think that he'd get a heroes welcome, at least by a sizable part of the population. If he did belive that, invading makes all the more sense.

I do agree that it is in the Wests interest to portray Putin as failing, and that spreading rumors of his plan being implausibly optimistic ahead of time might have been part of that strategy. A strategy like that might backfire though, if it demoralizes defending troops before the attack (I personally would be inclined to desert if my own leaders thought we would loose within days anyway). Right now it is clearly in the interest of the west to fuel and maintain a narrative of a weak, disorganized and outdated Russian army, and this incentive should make us look more closely at the evidence. As far as I can see (which is not very far, certainly not further than anyone else with an internet connection) it seems to more or less check out. 

A note on Reservists: Many reservist forces take months to mobilize and retrain even at the best of times, and will have to be processed in batches. Ukraine only activated it's reservists on the day of the invasion. Apparently they have temporarily stopped taking more people in, due to training facilities being flooded with more volunteers than they can process. Russia has not (yet) called for remobilization of reservist forces, that we know of. If they did, that would amount to Putin admitting that something has gone horribly horribly wrong, in a way impossible to hide from the general population.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T22:19:43.388Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"So did the alleged Russian soldiers who packed parade uniforms rather than food"

That's not a good example. I've been hearing tons of reports of Russian soldiers who didn't even know they were going into enemy ground. Soldiers usually know little, specially those of dictatorships.

"If this was obviously false to you ahead of time I applaud your ability to (seemingly at least) do better than most public military analys in the west over the last decade or more"

All it takes is a bit of common sense and, above all, being able to detect the propaganda on both sides (I've also been hearing plenty of military analysts saying the war could last years btw). How on Earth do you conquer in a few days a nation of 44 million who's deeply adverse towards you, and who's been receiving plenty of military aid from the West? It's that simple. This is not Iraq. Sure, Iraq has a similar size and population, but it's a war-torn hellhole in the middle of nowhere, where the whole world was against it, not supporting it. It's night and day. (Or one could also think of Hitler breezing through Austria and being received with flowers, but again, you had a population/government who was in full support of him, which is pretty much the opposite of the current stance of Ukraine towards Russia ).

Replies from: Dojan
comment by Dojan · 2022-03-16T01:14:40.180Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"That's not a good example", "Soldiers usually know little"

Fair.

"the war could last years"

Now that Putin is bogged down, apparently unable to make militarily advances, but politically unable to back out, it might well drag on for years. I didn't hear anyone predicting that until after the advance seemed to stall out though (again, me not hearing about it is not proof of absence. I'd be very interested to find an analyst who predicted this from the start.).

"All it takes is a bit of common sense"

This is not how it looks to me. But if grant that it is obvious, and was well known to all involved players, then that really raises the question of what Putin thinks he is gaining from a long, unpopular, expensive war with his "beloved brother-nation". Which I suppose was the question that you posed to start with, so fair enough :) 
Most of my probability mass is still concentrated around Putin simply being mistaken about how he would be received, and thus how things would turn out, like I've outlined above. I realize that this is basically the common western propaganda narrative, and I agree that that should make us extra critical. But the fact remains that it sure looks to me like he is deep in the shit now, which clearly implies that something didn't turn out the way he wanted it to. See also new thread.

comment by Ege Erdil (ege-erdil) · 2022-03-15T00:30:46.959Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

All of the previous wars have been easy to understand. From the pure will for power and territory of most of the old wars, to the stupid escalation of WWI, to the megalomania and extreme nationalism of Nazi Germany leading to WWII, to the need to cut short Communism's expansion with Vietnam and Korea, to the religious fundamentalism of the wars in the Middle East, to the ethnic tensions of Yugoslavia/Kosovo and pretty much all modern wars in Africa.

This has already been pointed out but I need to say it again: wars are not easy to understand. If you have tidy and simple explanations of wars from the past, that's a sign that your understanding is poor and distorted, not that events in the past were actually as simple as you think they were.

But I can't understand this war. The official motive, as most of us would agree, is b.s. NATO's expansion poses no threat to a country with the greatest nuclear arsenal on Earth.

What was the motive behind the Soviet Union attacking Finland in 1939? Molotov (the Soviet minister of foreign affairs at the time) in fact gave the same excuse that Finland was a threat to the Soviet Union in a meeting with Hitler, and Hitler said that it was ridiculous for the USSR to claim Finland posed a military threat to them. In response, Molotov said that Finland was a "moral threat", and it was unacceptable for a great power like the USSR to have a defiant small country like Finland as a neighbor.

There are some parallels to today's war over Ukraine, since a militarized Finland posed a real threat to Leningrad in the event of a war, and in the eventual war between USSR and Germany, Finland indeed sided with Germany and together their forces were able to besiege Leningrad for three years. Moreover, Finland had been part of the Russian Empire until 1918 and Stalin did have ambitions of restoring the lost territory of the Russian Empire, much like Putin might harbor similar ambitions today.

I think the official motive is not "bs" at all. Russia's actions are perfectly explained by concern over NATO expansion and not that well explained by any theory that doesn't include concern over NATO expansion as at least a factor that went into the decision to go to war. You might think that their concern is either misguided or irrational, but that doesn't make the concern any less real from their point of view.

Is it really about nationalism and the desire the re-unite the old empire? But those "heroic" pursuits don't seem to hold water to me in a world more and more globalized and money-driven. Ideology is dying (and that's good).

Maybe you're wrong about your grand model of history. What gave you the impression that "ideology is dying"?

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T09:37:31.851Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"This has already been pointed out but I need to say it again: wars are not easy to understand. If you have tidy and simple explanations of wars from the past, that's a sign that your understanding is poor and distorted, not that events in the past were actually as simple as you think they were."

Well, I should have written "easier" instead. I'll edit the post.

However, I also said:

"This is not to say that it was always that simple, or that were never any hidden motives or corrupt interests. But I believe that the main motives were still clear and dominant."

So what I meant is that there was always a clear main motive (or almost always, at least for the examples I gave). Even to an attentive contemporary observer (probably). Anyway, I didn't mean to make an absolute statement, and I believe that was also clear.

On Finland, again, very different times, pre-NATO, pre-WWII, pre-globalization. Also USSR was way more ideologically driven than the current Russia of oligarchs. All this makes the real motives of that war more clear (a power grab). But again, no absolutes here, so I stress the fact that I don't consider all previous wars easy to understand, just easier.

"There are some parallels to today's war over Ukraine, since a militarized Finland posed a real threat to Leningrad in the event of a war"

Those parallels get slightly weakened by the vast difference between the two eras, and completely nullified by the existence of nuclear weapons today. NATO invading Russia = civilization collapse and no winners. Therefore, there is no possibility of success of an invasion of Russia. Therefore, Russia has no reason to fear an invasion.

Replies from: ege-erdil, Dojan
comment by Ege Erdil (ege-erdil) · 2022-03-15T10:03:10.537Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

So what I meant is that there was always a clear main motive (or almost always, at least for the examples I gave). Even to an attentive contemporary observer (probably). Anyway, I didn't mean to make an absolute statement, and I believe that was also clear.

There are such motives for the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Just to name a few:

  • Security concerns over NATO forces stationed in Ukraine
  • Irredentism over the lost territory of the Russian Empire & USSR
  • Retribution for the killing of Russian civilians in the war over Donbass

I don't know how you can look at this situation and say "I have no idea what Russia's motives are". This war is honestly quite a bit easier to understand than the First World War.

On Finland, again, very different times, pre-NATO, pre-WWII, pre-globalization. Also USSR was way more ideologically driven than the current Russia of oligarchs. All this makes the real motives of that war more clear (a power grab). But again, no absolutes here, so I stress the fact that I don't consider all previous wars easy to understand, just easier.

I don't know why these are relevant. The motives behind the Soviet invasion of Finland in 1939 are similar to the motives behind the Russian invasion of Ukraine in 2022. It's true all kinds of things have changed since 1939, but none of those are very relevant to understanding the motives behind the invasion as far as I can see.

Those parallels get slightly weakened by the vast difference between the two eras, and completely nullified by the existence of nuclear weapons today. NATO invading Russia = civilization collapse and no winners. Therefore, there is no possibility of success of an invasion of Russia. Therefore, Russia has no reason to fear an invasion.

If "Russia has no reason to fear an invasion", what odds do you give to a foreign army occupying Moscow in the next 80 years? If these odds are significantly above 1% (as they should be) then you have to realize that your claim that "Russia has no reason to fear an invasion" is just wrong. Furthermore, you're assuming that any war between Russia and NATO would be nuclear, which is far from obvious.

Even if in fact Russia has no reason to fear an invasion, you have to understand that psychologically from the point of view of Russian leaders the situation doesn't look that way. You don't need to believe that their concern is legitimate to think that the concern in fact explains their behavior. I also think that Finland posing a "moral threat" to the USSR was nonsensical, for example, but it didn't feel that way to Soviet leaders at the time.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T10:33:49.556Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"There are such motives for the Russian invasion of Ukraine. Just to name a few:

Security concerns over NATO forces stationed in Ukraine

Irredentism over the lost territory of the Russian Empire & USSR

Retribution for the killing of Russian civilians in the war over Donbass"

They don't seem strong/genuine enough to me, that's all.

"I don't know how you can look at this situation and say "I have no idea what Russia's motives are"."

Because, like I said, the presented/official motives, and even most of the speculated ones, don't seem strong enough to me. I have some ideas myself, so it's not like "I have no idea about Russia's motives", I just wanted to find stronger hypothesis.

But all in all, we just have different opinions about a very subjective matter. Which is fine.

"If "Russia has no reason to fear an invasion", what odds do you give to a foreign army occupying Moscow in the next 80 years?"

That needn't happen only through an invasion. In fact, for the odds of that happening through an invasion, I'd give it less than 1% chance. Only for the odds of it happening through internal regime change I'd give it a more than 1% chance. Putin has clearly stated that he would use nuclear weapons if NATO invaded Russia.

"Even if in fact Russia has no reason to fear an invasion, you have to understand that psychologically from the point of view of Russian leaders the situation doesn't look that way. You don't need to believe that their concern is legitimate to think that the concern in fact explains their behavior."

I happen to think they're too smart to believe their senseless propaganda. If you disagree, that's fine.

Replies from: ege-erdil
comment by Ege Erdil (ege-erdil) · 2022-03-15T11:05:25.265Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

They don't seem strong/genuine enough to me, that's all.

Why not?

In fact, for the odds of that happening through an invasion, I'd give it less than 1% chance.

This is extremely overconfident. I don't know what else to say about it other than that, and even if you're going to hold this forecast you have to understand that not everyone in the world is as confident as you are in this claim.

I happen to think they're too smart to believe their senseless propaganda. If you disagree, that's fine.

Even if you think Russian security concerns are somehow illegitimate, what's senseless about Russian animosity against the post-Maidan government of Ukraine that results from the war in Donbass? Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974 for quite similar reasons, and the tensions between Greek and Turkish nationalists on the island definitely set the stage for that.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T11:35:05.985Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"Security concerns over NATO forces stationed in Ukraine

Irredentism over the lost territory of the Russian Empire & USSR

Retribution for the killing of Russian civilians in the war over Donbass"

  1. Doesn't seem genuine because Russia has plenty of nukes, which make a NATO invasion a suicidal act. Yes, not all wars are fought with nukes. But there's an very high probability that a war between the 2 greatest nuclear powers would escalate to that. Which makes such invasion irrational and suicidal. Even more when Putin has clearly stated that he would use nukes to defend himself from a NATO invasion.

  2. Doesn't seem genuine because I don't see modern Russia as a highly ideological nation like the USSR was. I don't doubt they would like to have Ukraine and the rest of the former empire back. The question is what they're willing to sacrifice for it. Invading Ukraine is a huge sacrifice and realistically won't even give them Ukraine back, just install a puppet government at best.

  3. Same as 2), don't doubt they desire that, but the cost of invading Ukraine seems just too high.

"Even if you think Russian security concerns are somehow illegitimate, what's senseless about Russian animosity against the post-Maidan government of Ukraine that results from the war in Donbass?"

Same as 2) and 3), don't doubt such animosity, but the cost of invading Ukraine seems just too high.

"Turkey invaded Cyprus in 1974 for quite similar reasons"

Same thing yet again. What's the population and size of Cyprus? What's its connection/strategic importance to NATO/Europe, aka likelihood of it receiving tons of military aid? Is it a huge 44 million people country at the doors of Europe?

Replies from: ege-erdil, ChristianKl
comment by Ege Erdil (ege-erdil) · 2022-03-15T11:56:33.854Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Alright, then here is a question for you: what would Russia have to do for you to be convinced that these motivations are genuine? I'd think a full-scale invasion of Ukraine is a pretty strong signal of that, but your prior on it seems to be so low that "everything they say is propaganda that they don't believe in" is still somehow winning over the alternative simple explanation of "they really mean what they say".

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T15:16:20.639Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

If the motivations are genuine, they are misguided. I happen to think that the regime is intelligent and therefore isn't that misguided. That's why I tend to side more with domestic power-seeking explanations, like those expressed in the most upvoted comment in this post. I'm not sure of what Russia could do to convince me otherwise. "War not being enough to convince me" is an obvious fallacy.

Replies from: ege-erdil
comment by Ege Erdil (ege-erdil) · 2022-03-15T15:34:06.468Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

You do realize that you're implicitly saying everyone who disagrees with you about the legitimacy of these concerns (including me) are not intelligent, right? Are you sure this is not a case of "no true scotsman" reasoning on your part?

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T16:54:10.909Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

No, I'm not saying that at all. Foreign civilians like you and me don't have access to the important classified information that the Kremlin has. Or to their minds. Therefore, it's reasonable to buy into their official motivations, maybe as much as it is reasonable not to. So, sorry but that's another obvious fallacy.

Plus, this is just my opinion, which I never claimed to be certain of.

comment by ChristianKl · 2022-03-16T14:07:30.509Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Russia is ideologic enough that companies like Yandex and VKontakte can exist. There are no European search engines or social networks as Europeans have no ideological issues with using US services. On the other hand, Russians are ideological enough that they prefer Yandex and VKontakte over Western services. 

What's its connection/strategic importance to NATO/Europe, aka likelihood of it receiving tons of military aid? Is it a huge 44 million people country at the doors of Europe?

Ukraine has a huge population but it's also quite poor and doesn't have many important exports. Strategically, access to Russian gas is much more important than Ukraine to Europe. Giving it military aid is more a matter of principle than due to strategic importance.
 

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-16T15:37:25.043Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"Europeans have no ideological issues with using US services. Russians are ideological enough that they prefer Yandex and VKontakte over Western services."

Is it really the population who prefers, or the autocratic government who prefers it for them? Isn't it obvious that 1) they are not a democracy like most of Europe, 2) they are not US allies like most of Europe, 3) social media has a huge influence on politics and power, therefore it's normal that we see dominance of Russian companies which are all deeply connected to the state given their type of regime?

"Ukraine has a huge population but it's also quite poor and doesn't have many important exports."

Russia is also kinda poor. But that's not all. Population size is correlated with army size and overall defense capabilities. Or at the very least with the difficulty to dominate and seize control of a country.

"Strategically, access to Russian gas is much more important than Ukraine to Europe. Giving it military aid is more a matter of principle than due to strategic importance."

That's also a really blind argument. There's the obvious threat of Russian escalation to other countries if they succeed in Ukraine, and overall a threat to continental and global peace. That's way more important than gas.

Replies from: ChristianKl
comment by ChristianKl · 2022-03-16T18:17:47.804Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Is it really the population who prefers, or the autocratic government who prefers it for them? 

While Facebook was recently blocked, for a long time it was accessible and people still used VKontakte. Google and Bing still seem to be useable by Russian speakers even now.

If the population wouldn't prefer using Yandex and VKontakte those wouldn't be successful businesses.

Russia is also kinda poor. 

Russia's GDP per capita is more than twice that of Ukraine. More importantly, its major exports are wheat, sweet oils, and corn which European nations don't want to import as we want to support our own farmers. Its iron exports might be more valuable but there are plenty of other sources for that.

There's the obvious threat of Russian escalation to other countries if they succeed in Ukraine, and overall a threat to continental and global peace. 

That's something different than strategic importance. It's a principle of how to react to aggression.

Replies from: Viliam
comment by Viliam · 2022-03-16T18:54:09.302Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

If the population wouldn't prefer using Yandex and VKontakte those wouldn't be successful businesses.

 I've heard an opinion that VK has much better user interface than FB. Didn't verify.

Russia's GDP per capita is more than twice that of Ukraine.

Russia's Gini index is 1.5 times higher, so part of that difference means "Putin is rich".

Replies from: ChristianKl
comment by ChristianKl · 2022-03-16T19:31:08.043Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

When trading with another country total wealth does matter but income is also still double

comment by Dojan · 2022-03-15T14:12:28.353Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I don't think Putin fears a NATO invasion of Russia. I think he fears a decline in Russian influence.

Consider the British Empire. It was a superpower of it's time, and is a nuclear power today. Yet it is not a superpower anymore. Influential; sure, powerful; yes, but not even remotely comparable to the US, China or the USSR of old. Yet it was. And it's decline happened entirely without invasion of it's homeland. Portugal and Spain has similar histories.

Putin might think of that as loosing utterly, utter humiliation. If you regard Russian loss of superpower status as a loss condition, then NATO's expansion looks different. Putin described the fall of the USSR as "the greatest tragedy of the twentieth century" which... is pretty absurd considering what else happened during the twentieth century, but is consistent with the above viewpoint.

The comparison with the British Empire has many faults. Yet Putin might think that it is a valid comparison in a few narrow, critical ways.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-16T10:25:04.306Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Yes, that's what he has been saying all along. The question is whether we should buy it. I, personally, don't really buy into it that much. Maybe just a bit. Like I said in my reply to Nanda Ale's comment, I believe that love for personal power/wealth/influence is stronger than nationalism. Maybe not in the past, but at least it is so these days, as a result of capitalism, globalization, and the kinda nihilistic modern atmosphere (I don't think the first 2 are bad things btw). Again, this is just my own opinion on a very subjective matter.

And then there's also the question of, even if Putin is that full-on nationalist that he claims he is, does this war actually help in that direction? I have my doubts. What will be the end result of this for Russia? A huge loss of power and influence on all levels. So, not really that good for empire building. Unless he has the Hitler mindset of risking-it-all, which falls already into basket of irrationality/madness, specially in a time with nuclear weapons in the equation which weren't in Hitler's time.

Replies from: Dojan
comment by Dojan · 2022-03-17T04:24:57.492Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"that's what he has been saying all along"

So you are basically saying that you agree that his words matches his actions, but since you don't believe his word and can't find any ulterior motive, you are confused by his actions. I don't understand. If you agree with this, his actions should be evidence that he does indeed believe what he says. Not counting all his surface level lies and obvious propaganda here.

I think this might be the crux of this whole debate to be honest: Me and several others have tried to explain different takes in different words, and you seem continuously dissatisfied with them (and I appreciate your dedication to finding an answer, even if at some point I run out of things to add). It is absolutely worth looking for ulterior motives, but I don't necessarily expect to find any major ones at this point. The time to really suspect ulterior motives are when the words and actions don't match up, or the words themselves don't make sense.

"I believe that love for personal power/wealth/influence is stronger than nationalism"

I think that varies tremendously from person to person, more so than from era to era. I think what varies between eras is the Overton Window.

"does this war actually help"

Not the way it is currently playing out, no. If he would in fact have been greeted with flowers, and taken most of the country in a few days with little resistance, it would have been a huge win for him. This is evidence that he thought this would happen.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-17T11:28:06.739Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"So you are basically saying that you agree that his words matches his actions, but since you don't believe his word and can't find any ulterior motive, you are confused by his actions. I don't understand. If you agree with this, his actions should be evidence that he does indeed believe what he says. Not counting all his surface level lies and obvious propaganda here."

That's just an obvious fallacy. Words can justify actions and yet not coincide with the real motivations behind said actions. It's called, like you acknowledge, lies and propaganda.

And it's not like I can't find any ulterior motive either. In reply to Nanda Ale's comment I admitted those seemed like pretty plausible ulterior motives. And I suspect a few others. As others have said, wars are often complicated. So why aren't I allowed to have doubts, and mistrust the official justifications?

Sorry but this comment of yours just doesn't make any sense. What it seems to me is that you, and others, are maybe trying a little too hard to play devil's advocate with Putin. Or, I don't know, oppose me just for intellectual fun?

""does this war actually help"

Not the way it is currently playing out, no. If he would in fact have been greeted with flowers, and taken most of the country in a few days with little resistance, it would have been a huge win for him. This is evidence that he thought this would happen."

No, it's not evidence of such. If, for instance, the ulterior motives of Nanda Ale's comment apply, he might have already thought that the war wouldn't be easy, might even weaken Russia, yet it might consolidate his power, since Russia will still probably win, just not easily and not in a way that will be worth the victory. But it can still raise his domestic popularity and consolidate his power.

And there are many other ulterior motives which can justify a harder war, even irrationality, all-in desperate plays, etc.

Replies from: Dojan
comment by Dojan · 2022-03-17T20:48:47.754Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"why aren't I allowed to have doubts, and mistrust the official justifications? 
Sorry but this comment of yours just doesn't make any sense. What it seems to me is that you, and others, are maybe trying a little too hard to play devil's advocate with Putin. Or, I don't know, oppose me just for intellectual fun?"

Of course you are! I think this conversation has been constructive, if a bit adversarial. Sorry about that! It has helped me shake down my picture, and I guess playing devils advocate is the best I can do to understand what is going on. This (obviously) does not imply that I agree with any of Putins actions (goes without saying). I also don't necessarily expect us to be able to converge our understanding, since we have different priors and different information. Sorry if you felt pressured, that is not my intent :) I am happy to leave this debate here if it doesn't feel productive to you. I don't think I'm likely to change my stance much at this point without new information or arguments, and I'm not necessarily saying that you should either. If some confusion remains as to what my stance is, I am happy to elaborate.
That said:

 "Words can justify actions and yet not coincide with the real motivations behind said actions."

Sure. There might be an endless series of masks behind masks. But when we see that his actions consistently line up with a certain layer of mask, then that is evidence that that mask contains some real information. Basically; which of his words has predicted his actions, so far? Those might continue to do so. Obviously many of his words are blatant lies, like "we won't invade", "The Ukrainians are bombing their own people", "Zelenskyy is a Nazi/Nato puppet" etc, but if we can consistently differentiate between this surface level of lies (this outermost mask), from the lower levels that may or may not have predictive power, then we might learn something about his real motives. As it happens, it seems to me that some of what he has been saying has predictive power. I'm trying to extract that. This is not a reliable process, what with all the deliberate misinformation going around, but I hope to be able to do better than chance. 

"the ulterior motives of Nanda Ale's comment"

Could you summarize what they are? I'm not sure what you are referring to specifically. "Consolidate power" is super vague at best, and I think the opposite is happening right now. If you have a different take, I'd be interested in that too.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-18T14:19:41.067Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

" I think this conversation has been constructive, if a bit adversarial."

We on Lesswrong are oversensitive about that. Some degree of it should be tolerated. But I don't even think this discussion has been really adversarial, at least not reaching personal levels. When I say that x is a fallacy or that you're playing devil's advocate a bit too much, I only say it for the argument's sake, there's absolutely nothing personal in it.

"It has helped me shake down my picture,"

I'm glad to hear it!

""the ulterior motives of Nanda Ale's comment"

Could you summarize what they are? I'm not sure what you are referring to specifically."

Is basically boils down to power consolidation, yes. I don't think it's vague. It's a common political theme that nothing works as well as a war to either distract the populace from important matters, and/or to consolidate popularity and therefore power. Specially in less liberal-minded countries.

Other ulterior motives that I personally suspect are: hatred, and all-in desperation moves.

Replies from: Dojan
comment by Dojan · 2022-03-18T21:34:27.114Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"But I don't even think this discussion has been really adversarial"

I'm relived to hear it!

re:Ulterior motives

I believe we are mostly in agreement over the underlying forces behind this conflict then. 

comment by DirectedEvolution (AllAmericanBreakfast) · 2022-03-14T21:20:47.491Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

In 30 years, we’ll have the same tidily packaged explanations for this war that we have for wars of the past. I expect that wars of the past were also confusing at the time.

But if you’re this shocked, it’s a sign that your old model of how the world works was probably flawed. Rationality 101! In this case, maybe foolish and ideologically-driven decision making is more common than you’d assumed.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-14T21:49:22.020Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Well, I was indeed expecting this kind of reply since it constitutes pretty much half the comments here on Lesswrong (half-baked gotcha + prescribe rationality, without answering the original questions).

So, if anyone else is reading this, I'd like to say that this post is for the imperfect people who have doubts about the real reasons of this war and who care to give an opinion.

(Sorry for the sarcastic tone, it is only because i grow tired of this type of comment (not only directed at me but at others too) and I don't think it's helpful. Nothing personal.)

Replies from: dave-orr, Dustin
comment by Dave Orr (dave-orr) · 2022-03-14T22:03:43.151Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think the Dictator's Handbook's selectorate theory (less wrong review [LW · GW]) can potentially help illuminate why a dictator would make moves that are bad for the country, which is that they can be motivated by internal coalition politics.

I also think that people generally feel like Putin was systematically misinformed due to surrounding himself by sycophants, and also probably by feeling like he'd tested the waters with Crimea and nobody really did anything to stop him, so this was relatively low risk.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-14T22:12:31.649Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Interesting. Staying in power had crossed my mind, though more specifically in the regard that a democratic Ukraine might somewhat pose a threat not just to Putin but to the whole regime. Didn't know about selectorate theory, thanks for the reference.

On Putin being misinformed due to being surrounded by yes men, which has been a popular argument, I have more trouble believing. I suspect their regime is more competent than that. But also a fair point nonetheless.

Replies from: anon-user
comment by Anon User (anon-user) · 2022-03-15T07:16:13.177Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I suspect their regime is more competent than that.

Why? They expected to take Kiev in 72 hours. Their military planning was clearly misinformed and their execution of the mi!itary operations clearly demonstrates a lot of incompetence. Why would you think that their broader decision making is any better? It's not.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T08:56:19.048Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

They could have been lying. There are flaws in the Russian army, for sure. And there could be planning flaws as well. But from there to think that they're just outright naive/dumb still goes a considerable distance.

comment by Dustin · 2022-03-15T00:22:39.626Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

without answering the original questions

 

It seems unreasonable to me to expect all comments on a post to directly answer the explicit questions raised in the post. 

Sometimes people highlight unexamined premises in your question that resolve your own confusion!  I think such comments are very helpful!

I do not know if AllAmericanBreakfast is correct, but it does not seem implausible to me that wars in the past were confusing to intelligent people living at the time.

(I do agree that there is something about the tone of AllAmericanBreakfast's comment that can illicit a feeling of irritation.  Maybe the last sentence has a bit of condescension to it?)

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T09:07:36.893Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"It seems unreasonable to me to expect all comments on a post to directly answer the explicit questions raised in the post."

It seems arrogant to me to diagnose someone with a flawed world model and in need for Rationality 101 just based on a few paragraphs of what I consider to be uncontroversial statements (others might have different opinions but I don't think my arguments are outlandish), and then just leave it at that, when the post asks for opinions (all other commenters gave opinions).

Mortals have doubts.

comment by Dead Hour Canoe · 2022-03-16T12:20:40.699Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Because Ukraine is turning westwards. NATO is a small part of this, and largely irrelevant; it's not as if Putin's attitude to Ukraine has changed as it has become more likely to join NATO, or as if in the short or medium term it has ever been at all likely that Ukraine will actually do so. 

Ukraine sees the healthy democracies and economic growth of other Eastern European countries, and wants to be one of them. This desire has been increased by the failure of the Russian economy over the past ten or so years; since 2013, Russian GDP has decreased by a third (or flatlined at PPP). The GDPs of Eastern European EU member states have continued to increase. Ukraine's has continued to stagnate.

Even if denied membership of NATO, the EU, and every other supranational political organisation, in perpetuity, Ukrainians will still want to escape Russia's orbit, and as long as Ukraine is a democracy (even if a seriously flawed one), they will try to do so. And as the gap between the Ukrainian economy and those of other Eastern European countries increases, they will try harder.

Putin doesn't have a way to change this short of having Ukraine run by a dictator dependent on him for survival. Putin can't increase Russian economic power, because he runs a mafia regime where his associates control and mismanage everything, and the only way to improve the economy would be to get rid of him. Not to mention the impact of the pre-existing sanctions, which again can only be removed by getting rid of him. He can't increase the attractiveness of the Russian state and political model, because he's a mass murderer who runs a mafia regime, and the Russian state and political model can only be made more attractive by getting rid of him.

And all European countries are trying to stop using fossil fuels by 2050. And seem to be serious about doing so. Which means that in any realistic forecast, a Putin-controlled Russian economy is going to do increasingly badly over the next three decades. 

The war would not have happened if Putin had not given the order for it to happen, and if someone else was in Putin's position then it seems unlikely that it would be happening. No one knows what's going on Putin's mind, and so no one can be sure why the war is happening. Maybe he's become obsessed with Russian greatness and expansion, maybe he fears Russian decline will lead to his overthrow, maybe he's hooked on meth and in a state of paranoid psychosis, maybe he's obsessed with Ukraine in particular becoming part of Russia, maybe he fears the collapse of the Russian Federation if its non-Russian inhabitants see a dependent country leave the Russian orbit and succeed, maybe he fears the collapse of his regime if Russians see a democratic Ukraine succeed, maybe he thinks that he's the reincarnation of Peter the Great, maybe he believes that Russians in Ukraine need his protection, maybe he thinks that Russians everywhere in the old Eastern bloc need his protection, maybe he believes that Ukraine's leaders are puppets of an American government determined to overthrow him and/or undermine Russia, maybe he thought the Ukrainian army was getting stronger and so he had to act now, and probably some part of most of the above (maybe not the meth one) and several others. The common denominator in all of these theories (maybe not the meth one) is that it is the combination of these beliefs of Putin, which are currently unknowable, with the Ukrainian move westwards, that has meant that the war is happening. 

Samo Burja has referred to Russia under Putin as a live player; a country able to do things it has not done before. This is debatable given Russian history (he defends his argument on the basis that post-Soviet Russia is a new country). What is unarguable is that Ukraine is a live player, and, given the situation outlined above, would be likely to remain one even if Zelenskyy was no longer President (as long as he was replaced by another leader chosen by Ukrainians). It is doing things it has never done before. These Ukrainian actions have led to a situation where a mass-murdering scumbag has decided to declare war, for reasons that are currently unknowable. But they also offer the hope that Ukraine can be a free, prosperous, democratic state. Ukraine is not a pawn of Russia, the US, or anyone else. The most important decisions that led to this war were made by millions of Ukrainians, and one evil Russian. 

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-16T15:15:06.456Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Well said. I completely agree.

(Except maybe that this is Putin's decision alone. No one rules a country alone, even a dictatorship. But could be, who the hell knows...)

comment by Mitchell_Porter · 2022-03-16T08:10:30.598Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Russia believes that independent Ukraine has become a tool with which to attack and undermine Russia. Russians say that since the cold war, America has reduced many countries to chaos - Libya, Syria, and Iraq are frequently cited examples - the main precedent here must be Yugoslavia. For Russia, "losing Ukraine" is very similar to Serbia losing Kosovo. It's a kind of motherland and to have anti-Russian ideology there is unacceptable - this is the real meaning of "denazifying" Ukraine - in Russia, Nazis are remembered primarily as enemies of Russians. 

Petr Pascenko commented that "half of the Russian defense industry has ended up in a hostile country". So there you see the other war aim - disarming Ukraine. To say Ukraine is militarily irrelevant because this is the era of nuclear weapons, is to overlook a lot of things. There is a continuum of escalation from political subversion, to guerrilla forces, to conventional warfare, to nuclear war, and control of territory still matters for all of them, even for nuclear war: territory can house missiles, missile defense systems, electronic monitoring stations, and special forces. 

Even with a Russian victory, Ukraine's military-technical potential would not soon be reintegrated into Russia's system, so I believe the immediate goal is to just neutralize that potential, first by force, and then politically. 

The timing of the war, I attribute to the manner of the American exit from Afghanistan. Russia's analysts and strategists may have decided that America looked weak, and that there was a chance to kick them out of Ukraine entirely, rather than just keep Ukraine preoccupied with the civil war. So first there was the ultimatum of December, demanding a treaty to restrict NATO and keep Ukraine neutral; and when no treaty was agreed, then came the actual invasion. 

For me, the biggest riddle is still, what have American intentions actually been, through all the years; how should one conceive of them. (There is also the question of European intentions, but I'll skip that for now.) There's little doubt that American "grand strategy" includes among its aims, preventing any great power in the eastern hemisphere, from becoming dominant there. Another common element of American geopolitical thinking since the end of the cold war, is the idea that spheres of influence should not be allowed. Each nation, no matter how big, does not get to influence the sovereign choices of its neighbors. Finally, there's that end-of-history idea that liberal democracy is the final and most virtuous political system, and that it should become universal. American policy towards Ukraine and Russia can be motivated by all of these. 

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-16T10:57:31.267Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"Russians say that since the cold war, America has reduced many countries to chaos"

None of them were big powers with nuclear weapons (so why is that a threat to Russia?). And it's not like Russia has behaved much better, just look at the horrible massacre in Chechnya and, well... This war.

"For Russia, "losing Ukraine" is very similar to Serbia losing Kosovo. It's a kind of motherland and to have anti-Russian ideology there is unacceptable"

That's assuming that the regime are as nationalistic as they claim (I believe modern politicians love power more than nationalism, for instance). And more importantly, assuming that this hopeless war would bring any progress in imperialistic regards. I think it will only achieve the opposite. It will only weaken Russia. America can afford to invade Syrias and Lybias as much as they want, because those are torn hellholes with the whole world against them. With Ukraine, you actually have a mostly unified population and regime, and the whole world is giving them weapons and support. Plus Russia is not half as powerful as the US.

"To say Ukraine is militarily irrelevant because this is the era of nuclear weapons, is to overlook a lot of things. There is a continuum of escalation from political subversion, to guerrilla forces, to conventional warfare, to nuclear war, and control of territory still matters for all of them, even for nuclear war: territory can house missiles, missile defense systems, electronic monitoring stations, and special forces."

Sure, Ukraine is not militarily irrelevant towards a country with no nuclear weapons. If Ukraine invades that country, a normal war would be fought. But let's imagine Ukraine invades Russia. Is that a threat to Russia, any more than any other similar country doing it? No.

But wait, let's say Ukraine joins NATO and the whole of NATO invades Russia. Well, first, does it make a difference whether Ukraine is in it or not? I don't think so, the result will be the same: planetary anihilation (yes, Putin has specifically said he would respond with nuclear weapons to a NATO invasion).

On territory mattering even for nuclear war, again, does it really make a difference whether Ukraine joins the party or not? Does NATO feel more emboldened to invade Russia just because they now have missiles in Ukraine pointed at Russia, and special forces, and what not (as some have been claiming)? Does that have in any way the potential to prevent the massive planetary destruction that would inevitably be the result of invading Russia - therefore making it a completely suicidal idea regardless - since we still haven't invented anything that can shield us from nukes and such invention is nowhere in sight?

That all sounds pretty absurd to me.

A far more realistic view is that this war poses much more of a threat to global security than the prospect of a Western-looking Ukraine or even a NATO member Ukraine.

Replies from: Mitchell_Porter
comment by Mitchell_Porter · 2022-03-17T00:39:50.391Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I have seen no-one in Russia talking about NATO invading Russian territory, as if it were 1812 or 1941.  The kind of things that Putin talked about, last month, as risks to Russia, are: ballistic missiles launched from Ukrainian territory; radars on Ukrainian territory used to "control" Russian airspace; NATO bombers taking off from Ukrainian airfields. 

Your idea is that Russia has nothing to worry about, if a nuclear-armed military alliance (NATO) which considers Russia its main threat, expands right up to the Russian border; because Russia has nukes too. But nukes are no guarantee of security, they're only a deterrent. Conflicts can escalate, someone can make a mistake. That's why neutral buffer zones and strategic arms limitation treaties have also been part of nuclear weapons diplomacy - to limit the possibilities of uncontrolled escalation. 

The Russian perspective, therefore, is that America has been increasing the risk of nuclear war, by adopting policies - NATO expansion, withdrawal from various arms treaties, deployment of missile defense systems which (so Russia says) can be turned into offensive emplacements - without regard for their effect on Russia's own security. Russia says America refuses to listen, so instead Russia takes material actions to restore the strategic balance. In 2018, that meant announcing a new generation of strategic weapons, to restore mutually assured destruction; in 2022, it has meant invading Ukraine in order to forcibly prevent it from becoming a western military platform. 

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-17T02:28:38.762Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"I have seen no-one in Russia talking about NATO invading Russian territory, as if it were 1812 or 1941. The kind of things that Putin talked about, last month, as risks to Russia, are: ballistic missiles launched from Ukrainian territory; radars on Ukrainian territory used to "control" Russian airspace; NATO bombers taking off from Ukrainian airfields."

And how would any of those things represent a threat to Russia (i.e. would be directed at Russia) if not for being part of a NATO invasion?

Baltic countries have been part of NATO for 20 years. Where's the ballistic missiles being launched at Russia and the radars?

The only real-world threat I see is Russia, who keeps threatening every single Eastern European country. Geez, no wonder they wanna join NATO! Maybe if Russia wasn't a mafia regime who murders and coerces for a living, the Eastern European countries wouldn't be so eager to join NATO and could maybe establish a healthy neutral zone.

Even China, who dislikes NATO, had to admit that "the security of a country can't be guaranteed by threatening the sovereignty of others". This war is irredimable.

Replies from: Dojan
comment by Dojan · 2022-03-17T03:46:44.981Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I agree. The rest of the world does too. It would be very nice if everyone were nicer. 

But can't you understand the perspective of how a more and more unbalanced Mutually Assured Destruction is a threat to Russia? I think MAD is mad, and that every effort should be made to dismantle it. But in lieu of that, it works to keep the peace to the extent that no-one wins in case of war, and thus no-one wants war. If one side has more modern delivery systems, more forward bases, and better missile defenses, that tips the power balance massively, and at some point, Destruction is no longer Mutually Assured. Or not Mutually Assured enough. This breaks the underlying core of how MAD hinders conflict. 

Now, I can't see the current west launching a preemptive strike at Russia. But in the context of MAD, it makes complete sense for a slowly-loosing party to change to a more desperate strategy before things progress that far. You and I might have thought MAD an old horror story from the middle of the last century, and not formed our understanding of the world around it, I certainly didn't. But if Putin thinks MAD is alive, then MAD is alive. 

And from a dictator's perspective, democracies are scarily unstable. Just because I can't see the current west as doing something like that, that is no guarantee that no such leader will ever be elected, or that relations won't sour in the future. As indeed they have.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-17T04:13:55.184Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"But can't you understand the perspective of how a more and more unbalanced Mutually Assured Destruction is a threat to Russia?"

I believe it might be. But it's a very hypothetical one.

This current war is a much more probable threat to global security, which includes Russia.

The West already has 2 NATO members bordering Russia. 2 of the Baltic countries. They joined 18 years ago. Why not put the missiles there? Why wait for Ukraine? In fact, why not launch a pre emptive strike from some other member state at all? Plenty of them are close to Russia.

"If one side has more modern delivery systems, more forward bases, and better missile defenses, that tips the power balance massively, "

We still haven't invented anything that can block a nuke and we're nowhere near it.

China only has around 300 nukes. US has like 20 times that. Now, I've heard that even those 300 are enough to destroy most major US cities. But maybe they aren't enough to destroy the whole of West's allies. So, I don't know, should China invade South Korea and Japan, because it fears that MAD between the two parts is not exactly balanced?

Or maybe, should it actually act not-insane and realize that it is equally suicidal for any bloc to either lose 80% or 100% of its population in a nuclear war, not to mention that we'd all probably die anyway due to nuclear winter? And realize that invading South Korea or Japan would actually raise the chance of nuclear war way more than the former paranoia, destroy everyone's economies and brutally kill a ton of innocents?

Replies from: Dojan
comment by Dojan · 2022-03-17T05:49:03.494Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"But it's a very hypothetical one."

Putin believing it to be real makes it real. That's all it takes. The physical nukes in their physical silos are not hypothetical.

"current war is a much more probable threat"

This only holds if you don't consider a long-term loss if influence as bad as utter defeat. Putin has explicitly stated as much.

"They joined 18 years ago"

18 years ago Russia didn't have the power, it was still a mess (even more of a mess). The fact that he didn't escalate to nuclear threats then speaks very well of him. (Not well enough. Not by a mile. But by some.)

"Why wait for Ukraine?"

In this view, it would be a case of a slowly rising tide, versus a line in the sand. Putin would have much preferred NATO to stay out of the Baltics too, but didn't have to power or leverage at the time, and/or believed assurances that NATO wouldn't expand further. On December 2021 Putin "politely" asked NATO to reverse all expansion to pre- 27 May 1997, saying basically that everything since then was unfair. 

"We still haven't invented anything that can block a nuke"

They sure are trying. The Anti-Ballistic Missile (ABM) systems basically shoots nukes out of the sky. That way they won't detonate, merely spread a plume of radioactive debris. It's far from perfect, but it is definitely tipping the power balance. Russia has a counterpart that protects Moscow, that was developed in the 80's. The US system attempts to protect the whole US mainland. Missiles are easier to intercept the further away they are launched, so the proximity advantage is huge. There was even a treaty between the US and USSR/Russia banning use of more than two ABM installations per side, and 100 ABM missiles per installation, basically in order to maintain MAD at a reasonable cost. The US opted out of the treaty in 2002, and now has 44 installations, presumably with hundreds of intercepting missiles at each installation. Russia followed suit, but can't afford very many installations. The US does not have enough still to intercept every missile of an all-out Russian attack, yet. Russia isn't even close.

"China only has around 300 nukes"

Yes, China has a much more sane (less mad) policy, of maintaining enough nukes to be a real deterrent, without aiming for MAD. Way less mad than the US, USSR and Russian policies.

"should China invade South Korea and Japan, because it fears that MAD between the two parts is not exactly balanced?"

I don't know. I sure hope they don't feel that way. By the logic of MAD they probably should, if they could get away with it. The US is terrible at backing down in situations like this, which might force Chinas hand, either to invade or to build many more nukes. I hope the US backs down instead. Just like I wish NATO would have backed down in the mid 90's, at least as long as Russia could have been negotiated to reciprocate. Instead NATO adopted an "Open door policy". Backing down is of course only viable if it is mutual.

"Or maybe, should it actually act not-insane"

MAD sure is mad. It has it's own, cold, internal logic to it though. I want to reject that whole world order. By your words here, you do too. That will only be possible if nuclear powers back down. Elsewhere you wrote "Everybody wants to rule the world. It's better if the good guys do it." And I fully understand the sentiment, but this is the inevitable consequence of that view, if there is anyone anywhere that doesn't consent to the rule of your "good guys". One might even say that holding the whole world hostage by threat of nuclear annihilation automatically disqualifies "good guy" status. Yet some nuclear powers are worse than others.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-17T11:02:47.541Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

A quick google search can easily disprove that, as I expected:

https://www.aip.org/fyi/2022/physicists-argue-us-icbm-defenses-are-unreliable (APS is an AIP Member Society.)

"This century, U.S. ICBM defense systems have been designed specifically around the threat of a small strike from a minor nuclear power, and the study notes that defense against attacks from nations such as China or Russia would likely be “much more challenging.”"

"In the study’s estimation, North Korean countermeasures would presumably be sophisticated enough to render midcourse interception generally unreliable."

So, in simple words, it's only really meant to be any effective against a small strike by a small rogue state, and even then it's not even that effective.

They predict it will stay the same for the next 15 years.

Is it true that some genius may suddenly come up with a breakthrough? Certainly. But that can happen in any country. Or, as anyone in this site is aware of, there will be military breakthroughs perhaps even sooner in AI, which will probably give a decisive strategic advantage (DSA) to a single power.

And it will much more likely be either in the US or China, since these countries actually invest in R&D instead of the oligarchs stealing everything.

So Putin can't change history by invading Ukraine. He probably knows this. He famously said in 2017 that "whoever invents advanced AI first gets to control the world".

Even in the mere terms of anti-ballistic missiles and such, it doesn't make much difference.

So either there are unstated motives for this invasion, like those proposed in Nanda Ale's comment, which make a lot of sense to me considering the whole fiasco about the Chechnya invasion ("history always repeats itself"), or he / the regime are either insane, or straight evil, or blatantly wrong, or playing an all-in desperation move.

"One might even say that holding the whole world hostage by threat of nuclear annihilation automatically disqualifies "good guy" status."

It doesn't because full nuclear de-escalation is realistically impossible. There will always be that shady 3rd world leader selling nuclear secrets to rogue nations, or that shady genius nuclear engineer going back home to his 3rd world country and becoming radicalized. Etc etc.

Replies from: Dojan
comment by Dojan · 2022-03-17T20:51:03.331Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Meta-discussion sidenote: I didn't intend for this discussion to escalate and become adversarial. Please see the first part of this comment [LW(p) · GW(p)]. No ill will garnered, and no offence taken :) If you think this is discussion is less than constructive, I'm perfectly willing to drop things here. 
That said:

"A quick google search can easily disprove that"

I only claimed that they are trying. And that this is a significant escalation since pulling out of the treaty. If they think they'll succeed to some significant extent in 15 years, that sets a hard time limit on Putins plans.

"And it will much more likely be either in the US or China, since these countries actually invest in R&D instead of the oligarchs stealing everything."

Case in point. He is falling behind, and he knows it. If he counts loosing SuperPower status as a complete loss condition, he has to do something drastic, and the sooner the better.

"It doesn't because full nuclear de-escalation is realistically impossible"

For me, Good-guy status is a scale. Holding the world hostage lowers your place on the scale significantly. The fact that others are even worse does not change this. If I had seen a strong, deliberate and sincere effort for mutual nuclear disarmament after the fall of the USSR I would be less harsh, but I haven't. I'm not saying this is a solvable problem, it might not be. I'm saying we aren't really trying.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-18T14:28:45.040Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"Case in point. He is falling behind, and he knows it. If he counts loosing SuperPower status as a complete loss condition, he has to do something drastic, and the sooner the better."

That's exactly one of my suspected ulterior motives: all-in desperation move. And it is an ulterior motive, since no Russian is saying "we're taking drastic measures to assure that we don't lose super power status in the world stage". Quite the opposite, they're saying "we're ultra rational peace makers".

On nuclear disarmament, that doesn't hold up. If we believe that it is not a solvable problem, we shouldn't actively work for a solution (there are plenty of think thanks theoretically working for a solution). If you begin actively working for a solution, much more tragic things could happen, like US and Russia both reach the number of nukes of 100 each, and then one of either has another 1000 in secret, or shady 3rd world leader build a nuclear arsenal of 500 and bombs the crap out of the US/Russia because being the shady 3rd world leader he is he thinks it's worth it.

I also believe that a world without nukes would plunge right back into the perma-war craphole it was before their existence. This is not to say that nukes are good, it's just that their absence might not be a lot better.

Replies from: Dojan
comment by Dojan · 2022-03-18T21:29:58.279Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"That's exactly one of my suspected ulterior motives"

Then we are in agrement here.

"If we believe that it is not a solvable problem"

I didn't say that it definitely isn't solvable, I conceded that it might not be. It certainly won't be if we aren't even trying, and I'm claiming that we aren't really trying. This would naturally include perpetually ongoing work on the world stage to prevent such developments as you describe. To be clear: I am not calling for unilateral disarmament. I understand that this would not be helpful. I am calling for gradual, universal disarmament, to the furthest extent possible. A de-escalation to mere nuclear deterrence without MAD, would be an unimaginable win for the probability of the survival of human civilization long term, sanity in general, and literally all known life. I understand that it won't be easy, and that MAD is an attractor in policy-space etc, etc, etc, but I can not agree with your seemingly defeatist acceptance of MAD as the only solution. To be clear: I understand the logic behind it. I can see your point. It has merit. I don't accept the conclusion.

comment by Dojan · 2022-03-16T01:47:46.702Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Trying to map hypothesis space of the Real Reason (tm):

1: Basic western narrative. Putin feels backed into a corner, like he is slowly but surely loosing influence to the West. He has the Mafioso-nature, and thought that taking back Ukraine would be easy, popular at home, a real show of force to the rest of the world short term, and could even be an economic win long term after consolidating the new territory and work force, plus it would cement his legacy as a Great Russian Tzar. But he has lost some of his touch and miscalculated, and is now a dangerously flailing wounded animal. Maybe also influenced by the newly found gas fields i Ukraine. 
Most of my probability mass is spread around here, though not really sharply concentrated anywhere within this branch.

2: Basic Kremlin narrative. Russia feels backed into a corner, like they are slowly but surely loosing influence to the West. The anti Russian Rusophobic sentiment in Ukraine is real, and the Azov Battalion is only the tip of the iceberg, and Putin wants to save his fellow Russians and Little Russians from US/Nazi oppression. Zylenskyy may or may not be a literal nazi and/or Jewish, but he definitely is a literal actor, and is playing the media and the west like a grand piano, according to the whim of the US, while the US is making biological and/or chemical weapons (the story varies) in Ukrainian labs to kill all Russians. Also they never even invaded Ukraine in the first place. 
This story isn't even trying to make sense.  

3: Putin might have some brilliant ace up his sleeve that will make it all come into a new light once it is revealed. I'd be very surprised at this point. It would have to be a very brilliant ace indeed. The only thing that even comes to mind is that this is a ruse to fool the west into thinking that the Russian military is weaker than it really is, then ???, then profit. 
I don't see it.

4: This invasion might itself be a reaction to something hidden, like a forced move due to invisible-to-us forces. Either in the Kremlin, on the streets of Russia, other world leaders, or China. If this comes from outside of Putins control, that could explain why the invasion seems so rushed and ill-prepared. But this also doesn't really seem very likely, when the very basic narrative seems to explain what we see equally well, but has fewer moving parts. Also, he has been nourishing this conflict for years, built his troop presence for months, and has been writing and opining about Ukraine for long time, so it doesn't look like a forced move. Hard to tell. If this was the case, then I wouldn't really expect anyone in the west to be able to see it until after the fact.

5: There is some huge benefit that he's after, but that we can't see. Maybe there are some complex ethnic stuff that the west hasn't picked up on (there surely are ethnic tensions, but the ones I've heard about seem inadequate to motivate all this). Maybe there is some complex strategic reason, having to do with the specific ranges of different launch systems and their positioning.... But I don't see it. Maybe there is some forgotten secret Soviet research facility hidden somewhere in Ukraine. Maybe the Lost Ark is in a catacomb under Kyiv. 
This line of reasoning is highly speculative at best, but would of course be an enormous breakthrough and of extreme strategic importance if it was true and could be found out. I don't think it is true. 

6: Truly alien motives. For example, Putin has himself stated that the Cold War era was better and safer for the world, and that this dangerous era of "monopolar" power distribution is terrible. Maybe the entire point is to spark a new Cold War. 

6.5: Putin is literally going mad, after years of self-imposed isolation and KGB-trained paranoia, maybe with a flavor of dementia in old age.

7: ???

In the end I don't really feel very confused about this war. It took me a few days for the shock to wear off, but to me it frankly looks a lot clearer than most wars I've ever studied in detail. This is not to claim that I got it right, of course. Most of my probability mass is within the scope of the mainstream western narrative. I would like to note however, that IFF he would indeed have taken Ukraine in a short, heroic war were he was welcomed by a sizable part of the population, many of these benefits would have likely materialized, regardless of our misgivings. Crimea worked out great for him. I don't think he miscalculated by all that much, aside from the true shape of his fighting forces, and the degree of support in the Ukrainian population (huge though those are). Note that I am in no way saying that the entire mainstream narrative is accurate or anything sweeping like that. Just that I haven't yet found any compelling evidence far outside of it. If you feel like you have some, I'd be most interested. 

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-16T11:19:28.643Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"Just that I haven't yet found any compelling evidence far outside of it. If you feel like you have some, I'd be most interested."

8.) Nanda Ale's comment. Which, in my opinion, isn't the whole portion of the Real Reason (tm) either, but paints the largest portion of it so far, in my very personal and subjective opinion.

comment by Petr Pascenko (petr-pascenko) · 2022-03-15T10:32:42.962Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

No one really sees into Kremlin inner circle decision making but there are several plausible hypotheses:

1. Snack that went wrong
As noted above, previous Putin wars (Chechnya, Georgia, Crimea) were in general short, victorious and boosted Putin's popularity, and strengthened his regime. At least so far.

2. No democracy in our backyard
A possible prospect of prosperous democratic Western-oriented Ukraine is probably the biggest threat to the long-term stability of Putin's autocracy.

3. Time is not on our side (my favorite)
Contrary to popular belief and the Russian propaganda narratives, sanctions do hurt. The ability of RF armed forces modernization as well as general Russians prospects for sustainable growth is effectively blocked. Hi-tech imports are prohibited and half of the Russian defense industry has ended up in a hostile country. The best time to do something is now, better than, say, ten years from now. Also, the west is still busy with covid, and oil and gas prices are rising. Nothing to wait for.

4. Place in history
Russian history books in general praise the leaders who succeed in the task of significantly expanding the territory of the Russian state, whatever the cost. Ukraine definitely counts and Mr. Putin's time is running out.

5. Victim of his own lies
The problem with politicians is that over time they come to believe their own propaganda. So long you say Ukraine is no country and Ukrainians are no nation you lost track of what the truth is.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T11:05:51.329Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
  1. Doesn't hold up. Anyone can see that a country with a 44 million population, with much more affinity and importance to NATO (therefore it would be easy to predict NATO's military support, as it had been happening since 2014 anyway) wouldn't be a snack like Crimea or Georgia.

  2. That's one of the strongest motives in my book.

  3. I tend to agree, but why the need to "do something" at all? I.e., why the need to invade Ukraine?

  4. Yes, the seek of nationalistic pride. Yet my intuition doubts that can be a much strong factor. I don't think this is a one man's job anyway.

  5. Could be. But again, my intuition wouldn't bet on it.

Replies from: petr-pascenko, Dojan
comment by Petr Pascenko (petr-pascenko) · 2022-03-15T11:56:19.386Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

3. I tend to agree, but why the need to "do something" at all? I.e., why the need to invade Ukraine?

 

China, among other reasons. Considering that without Ukraine components Russia is unable to complete a helicopter, a guided bomb, several types of tanks, rockets, etc., strategic competition to China is out of the question. 

Also, with Green Deal in the EU, Russia's main source of export i.e. hydrocarbons is doomed in 10-15 yrs time. 

The time is mercilessly against Putin and the window of opportunity was closing. Ironically, with this already lost war, he has achieved exactly the consequences he tried to avoid. Those are the decline of Russia from great power status, acceleration of EU energy revolution, and Russia's de facto vassal status to China.
 

comment by Dojan · 2022-03-15T14:34:36.908Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
  1. I totally thought at first that Russia would gobble up Ukraine in a few days. Now that it didn't work out that way, everyone agrees that Putin made a bad move, presumably Putin too. And there will never be a satisfying explanation for why it was secretly a smart move, aside from counterfactuals. Had Ukraine indeed capitulated and in large part welcomed the Russian forces, the whole war would have been over by now, and Putin would in many ways have been proven right, and would have to weather some sanctions etc, but that worked ok for him last time. But it didn't pan out that way. I agree with you that Putin is a smart guy, but that doesn't mean he will never make mistakes, and mistakes never look smart after the fact.
comment by Jay · 2022-03-14T23:13:47.159Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Richard Hanania's Public Choice Theory and the Illusion of Grand Strategy is worth reading on this general topic, although it's mostly about the Iraq war.

He doesn't use these words (that I recall, and I'm only partway through), but the behavior of states is less like rationality and more like autism.  What I mean is that states act on internal motivations that are only very weakly coupled to the objective strategic reality.  

Putin probably didn't have access to reliable information about the capabilities of his military vs. Ukraine's military.  How could he?  What General would dare tell the Tsar that the Russian army sucks?  Who would dare tell the General?  I'm sure the soldiers and junior officers knew they had problems, but probably had little idea how their capabilities compared to the Ukrainians' capabilities.

On the other hand, Putin probably knows as much as anyone about the highest ranks of Russian politics.  He sees those people all day, and it's almost inevitable that they constitute the community that matters to him. 

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T00:15:00.131Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"Putin probably didn't have access to reliable information about the capabilities of his military vs. Ukraine's military."

I find that hard to believe in a country with one of the most relentless intelligence services. Could be. But I wouldn't bet on it.

Replies from: Jay, Cmrde
comment by Jay · 2022-03-15T22:39:43.731Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The US has at least 16 intelligence agencies, but we still went into Iraq.  

Oddly, it's probably easier for Putin to get credible information about Ukraine's military than about his own.  Fewer people have an interest in lying to him about Ukraine.

comment by Cmrde · 2022-03-15T10:37:43.793Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Just where did you get the information about "one of the most relentless intelligence services"? It might be outdated.

comment by Donald Hobson (donald-hobson) · 2022-03-14T22:05:18.746Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

If you haven't read it yet. 

https://www.lesswrong.com/posts/mtBezwiwnELSjCxgq/ukraine-3-decision-theory-madman-theory-and-the-mafioso

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-14T22:17:49.004Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I had read it just a while ago. More of an analysis of the dynamic of the "mafioso" persona on war and other political questions? Didn't find much arguments about the real reasons for the invasion.

comment by ChristianKl · 2022-03-16T14:08:05.349Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

One interesting aspect here is that Russia's stated reasons aren't just confined to NATO. Part of the stated reason is that Ukraine didn't follow through on their Misnc II agreements. 

comment by Viliam · 2022-03-15T17:58:12.094Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

All of the previous wars have been easier to understand.

Wars are probably easier to understand in hindsight. During a war, there are incentives to lie about many things.

NATO is only a defensive organization.

It is now, and hopefully it stays like that; but it makes sense to worry about what else could happen.

I can't see how Russia's regime has anything to win with this on the long run. They might suceed at installing a puppet regime in Ukraine - but why is that so terribly important to them, and even more importantly, at what cost? Maybe they are just irrational? Maybe they were just wrong?

The war is not over yet, so it is too soon to talk about who was wrong.

There is always some uncertainty about how people will react. Perhaps in many parallel universes, Ukraine already has the puppet regime, and what we observe here is a rare outcome.

Cost? What ultimately matters is the impact on those who make the decisions, and it doesn't seem like Putin's position would be significantly threatened just because a few thousand people die. Sanctions? Well, they probably did not happen (or at least were much smaller) in those universes where the war actually was quick.

But Russia invading Ukraine, when the most that is feasible is a regime change...??

And in long term, unification of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. If we can trust Putin's own words, of course.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T18:19:02.889Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"Wars are probably easier to understand in hindsight. During a war, there are incentives to lie about many things."

Certainly. But in all examples I gave, I think the average attentive contemporary observer could have spotted the main motive. For instance, Hitler invaded Poland with the good ol'excuse of "they're genociding my people there" (sounds familiar). But an attentive contemporary observer would have noticed his real motives, aka it was a power grab with the Soviet Union also involved.

But this is, indeed, just a guess. Just an opinion. I'm not claiming to be doing exact science here.

On NATO, that's a big speculation not worth a genocidal war over imo. Specially when your country has the largest nuclear arsenal, making a NATO invasion unfeasible anyway.

"Cost? What ultimately matters is the impact on those who make the decisions, and it doesn't seem like Putin's position would be significantly threatened just because a few thousand people die."

That's a simplistic view. Bad consequences threaten the regime (which is not just Putin I believe). And also I don't think any leader wants to weaken his country with no good reason.

And the cost will obviously go beyond sanctions.

"And in long term, unification of Russia, Ukraine, and Belarus. If we can trust Putin's own words, of course."

That's another big if. But could be.

comment by Alex Mikhalev (alex-mikhalev) · 2022-03-15T10:24:35.885Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I am struggling with the same question, my current hypothesis:

  1. it’s “European Gas Wars” - new method of gas (mining??) from drilling in shell rocks see https://youtu.be/If61baWF4GE puts Ukrain into top position as gas exporter in Europe and nullifies Russian position as gas exporter. It’s quite plausable and verifiable - Shell signed a multi-billion contract with Ukranian president in 2013 to build infrastructure.
  2. Russia does somebodies else bidding - Chineese to push US out of world dominance, i.e. this hypothesis assumes there are few more moves after Ukraine invasion and escalation of conflict through the world From Russian perspective this invasion makes no sense at all - i.e. if Putin wanted to defend Donbass, 8 years ago was a right time, if NATO is a defence force, and Ukraine can be part of NATO, why Russia can’t be part of NATO (against China for example??? IMHO NATO is a construct designed to be against someone). I could come up with few “retaliation” strategies from Russian perspective which doesn’t involve invasion: i.e build cosmodrom in Cuba (with full radio location equipment) and I think Putin advisors can come up with better once.
  3. It’s Putin’s “Bay of Pigs”, but it lack a leader to re-instate back as president of Ukraine.
Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T10:58:11.472Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
  1. I had watched that video too. Seems like a shallow motive. As some commenters pointed out, there must be a lot of undiscovered gas and oil reserves in Siberia yet. Could have some weight, but not a lot.

  2. Seems quite plausible. The 3 world powers are undeniably NATO+allies, Russia and China. 2 going against one another heavily favors the 3rd (I also have some paranoid thoughts regarding the virus on this matter). However, the NATO+allies bloc is quite large. We have Australia, Japan, South Korea, and probably also most of South America. And indeed, I would be happy if Russia was part of NATO, considering the Chinese threat. On the other hand, on real matters we have much more to fear from Russia's behavior than China's. Russia has made way more wars, has a much worse human rights record, and has shown much more adversity towards us, with a much more unstable leadership. China seems peaceful, the question is with a dictatorship it can always change over night.

  3. Doesn't seem too likely, takes much more than a Bay of Pigs to conquer Ukraine.

Replies from: Dojan
comment by Dojan · 2022-03-15T14:44:12.200Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
  1. If Ukraine can sell gas to the EU, then Russia looses an immensely strong advantage. The size of Russian gas reserves in Siberia makes no difference for that. All that is needed is for Ukraine to have enough gas to supply Europe for another few years/decades, until the Green energy revolution comes along further.
comment by Signer · 2022-03-14T23:06:59.840Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The so-called danger that Moscow is very hard to defend from Europe because of the vast plains, therefore needing buffer states, doesn’t make any sense when nukes are in the equation.

By this logic wouldn't most of the military of all countries with nukes be unnecessary? As I understand it, the way you do it with nukes is you put as many steps as you can before you are forced to use them. So allowing for indirect confrontation in puppet-Ukraine that even in case of defeat may result in long-term recognition of Crimea as Russian territory seems positive. Or at least it may seem so to people in charge with 19th century-like thought patterns. You also may leverage puppet-government for gas exporting infrastructure or something? So it leaves the costs and that part really seems like miscalculation.

Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-15T00:11:07.750Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"By this logic wouldn't most of the military of all countries with nukes be unnecessary?"

That's a fallacy. Of course most countries prefer to start wars without nukes, but nothing guarantees that that's the way they will also end, specially between 2 nuclear powers with similar arsenals.

Russia, for instance, isn't using nukes to conquer Ukraine (yet, at least) but it's more than obvious that it would use nukes to defend itself from a NATO invasion (Putin has said it himself). If not "more than obvious" (just to be completely analytical here), at least "extreme likely". Therefore, invading Russia would be suicidal for NATO - with nuclear war there are no winners. Therefore, my argument still stands.

comment by Arcayer · 2022-03-14T22:11:04.392Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Russia wants Ukraine to stop doing ethnic cleansing in Donbas? I'll propose that the world makes perfect sense and everything fits together if you believe the Russian narrative, whilst nothing makes sense and nothing fits together if you believe the western narrative.

Going forward from there, the problem is, so, Ukraine shot a plane down, and the west blames Russia. Do the Russians swallow their pride and put up with this, or do they escalate? And of course they escalate. So, the Russians "suddenly and without provocation" seize Crimea and Donbas in a wildly popular referendum. Does the west back down, swallow their pride and put up with this? No, of course not, they escalate. So does Russia swallow their pride, put up with constant taunts, terrorism and (almost certainly empty) threats? No, of course not, they escalate. So does Ukraine surrender before overwhelming force? Nope, that also requires they swallow their pride.

Now, I'm getting into more speculative territory, but I expect that Russia simply doesn't want to kill Ukrainians. They want to Win. Winning is an end to itself at this point, with no other purpose. Because they're sick of being nettled by the evil westerners and want to show them what for. I am fully convinced the Russian war aim is for Zelensky to say "You win." and that this entire war would be over tomorrow if he did so.

So, the Russians take up lines, and they sit and wait. Militarily, Ukraine should shortly (over the next few months) run out of supplies and become incapable of continuing the war. The typical Ukrainian soldier is not actually willing to die for his government, but he doesn't have to, because Russia isn't trying to kill him, just wait him out. However, Zelensky's gambit is that he can use his utter dominance in the western press to spin the narrative to his advantage. And in fact, the number of people calling for intervention is increasing daily with each new story of Ukraine's heroic resistance and resolve, as they sit around and do nothing. Of course, Russia, and in particular, the Russian government absolutely cannot afford to lose at this juncture. They would be overthrown and executed. So they won't lose.

Which brings us to global thermonuclear warfare.

Or we could choose the alternative, and Lose.

So long story short, it's a war over national pride. The west insulted Russia one too many times, and they threw a hissy fit, and now the west is split between the side that thinks we should discipline the whiny toddler and the side saying "Umm, they have nukes? This is bad? Can we, not do that?"

Replies from: korin43, superads91
comment by Brendan Long (korin43) · 2022-03-14T23:51:29.866Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I'm confused about why Russia needs to conquer the entirely of Ukraine if their goal is just to make their side win in Donbas. Wouldn't they have just invad Donbas if that was the goal?

The "people said mean things about Russia so obviously the Russian military is murdering people now" theory seems to explain too much. People say mean things about a lot countries, but most countries don't start wars like this. What's special about Russia here?

Replies from: Arcayer
comment by Arcayer · 2022-03-15T03:59:54.547Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I observe a higher correlation between "people said mean things about X" and "X is murdering people now" than you make out? Most countries do go to war after they're sufficiently vilified/provoked? The difficult question to me seems more direction of causation. IE, the west claims it insults people because they're villains, I claim that around half our enemies, became so because we insulted them.

The problem with attacking the army in east Ukraine and ignoring Kyiv, is that it doesn't result in an apology from the west. They physically prevent further acts of terrorism/genocide/ethnic cleansing, but Zelensky runs mean press articles about it every day for the rest of eternity, the west passes massive sanctions, everyone calls Putin Hitler, etc. IE, you get the exact same rhetoric as right now, but the situation isn't resolved, so the rhetoric keeps going for the rest of eternity. It's basically a Taiwan situation. Sure, if you arm up, and wave your nukes around, even powerful nations will probably, physically, back down. However, it means China/Ukraine/the West, will from then on write about your "illegal occupation" of Taiwan/Donbas/Crimea and how great it would be if they could kill you.

So, strategically, which plan has the lowest chance of triggering world war three? What scares me is, before the war started I saw a poll that said something like 15% of Americans want war with Russia, given that Russia conquers Ukraine. And now, same source says we're at something like 40% of Americans want war with Russia. Note: Numbers half pulled out of hat.

I suspect that Putin believed us when we said we wouldn't start a nuclear war over Ukraine, and, including that, decided that if he could just get a treaty in writing, all of the warmongering would blow over in a few years, and the situation would be resolved.

I should also note, Putin thought war with Ukraine would play well to the press back home, which it did. Russians are lapping this up. Putin's popularity is at an all time high. I'm pretty sure most of Putin's decisions revolve around what makes him popular in Russia. But that just punts the issue to, why do the Russians hate us and want to kill us?

Also, Russians are genetically/culturally strongmen who take insults poorly and resort to violence quickly. They're not unique in this, but if you ascribe Swedish norms to Russians, you're going to get a bloody nose.

Also, mutually assured destruction has a giant gaping hole in it. That is, Russia gets to wipe out the west, and we get to destroy, basically, just Moscow. China is left untouched. Russia likes China and dislikes us. Punting the victory to China isn't that bad an option from their perspective.

comment by superads91 · 2022-03-14T22:43:16.338Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Very interestingly put, haha!

"Ukraine shot a plane down, and the west blames Russia. Do the Russians swallow their pride and put up with this, or do they escalate? And of course they escalate."

And to think the assassination of some Archduke was a petty starting event for a world war...

(No sarcasm, the world is indeed stupid, like that.)

comment by cousin_it · 2022-03-14T21:58:52.636Z · LW(p) · GW(p)Replies from: superads91
comment by superads91 · 2022-03-14T22:26:20.233Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Winter War and Russo-Japanese War were from a quite different times (first half of the 20th century), where the level of globalization and ideological decay were quite inferior to today's. As for Crimea, it just can't be compared to Ukraine. It's an island, much smaller (not a whole country) and where the majority of the population are ethnic Russians. No wonder they pretty much didn't resist, whereas Ukraine has become a bloody hell.

Yet, I still find imperialistic/nationalistic arguments quite plausible. They just don't tickle my intuition to the point of painting the full picture.