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There are set ups where each agent is using an nonphysically large but finite amount of compute.
In a situation where you are asking a question about an ideal reasoner, having the agents be finite means you are no longer asking it about an ideal reasoner. If you put an ideal reasoner in a Newcomb problem, he may very well think "I'll simulate Omega and act according to what I find". (Or more likely, some more complicated algorithm that indirectly amounts to that.) If the agent can't do this, he may not be able to solve the problem. Of course, real humans can't, but this may just mean that real humans are, because they are finite, unable to solve some problems.
I get the impression that "has the agent's source code" is some Yudkowskyism which people use without thinking.
Every time someone says that, I always wonder "are you claiming that the agent that reads the source code is able to solve the Halting Problem?"
You cannot spend anything on yourself, you must give all your money away, and live in a tiny cottage eating bland, cheap foods.
But effective altruism doesn’t say that. If it did, that would be pretty weird, as no EAs do that.
My objection to EA along these grounds is not that EA says that, it's that the principles of EA imply that. While it's true that EA doesn't say that, it seems to be making unprincipled exceptions when doing so.
No one—and I seriously mean no one—is suggesting that you should become a mafia boss so that you can donate the money.
This also falls under "EA may not say that, but it doesn't seem to have a principled reason why it doesn't imply that". It's entirely possible that you destroy less utility by doing Mafia-type things than you gain by donating what you get from your Mafia activities.
Here it seems like you should save the child.
But now imagine that rather than the child being near, they’re far away.
My answer to this is that in any drowning child situation that is realistic enough that our intuitions apply, the fact that the child is near places limits on how much we have to spend, and the fact that there are limits to helping people near us is one of the reasons why helping people near us is a reasonable policy.
And it doesn’t seem like the fact that they’re our countrymen is itself relevant, because then it would be more important to help a person after they’ve immigrated here than before they have.
If you believe there should be limits on immigration, and that there's no need to help people who have immigrated in a way bypassing those limits, this is not a problem. This seems to be circular reasoning: EA ideas of helping everyone equally are used to justify open borders in the first place, and then EA says stuff like this which tries to bootstrap open borders into a justification for EA.
One way to see how good different charities are is to imagine that after you died, you had to live the life of every creature on earth.
This implies that we should eradicate as many such species as we can, because creatures that don't exist don't count for this.
My own heresy is that I don't have a true rejection. Many ideas are things which I believe by accumulation of evidence and there's no single item which would disprove my position. And talking about a "true rejection" is really trying to create a gotcha to force someone to change their position without allowing for things such as accumulation of evidence or even misphrasing the rejection.
I also think rationalists shouldn't bet, but that probably deserves its own post.
This is the core reason why it is so difficult for ordinary people to pay their bills or raise families, despite earnings that would make them rich elsewhere or elsewhen. These productive actions are severely restricted, because if you are going to be productive then you have to do so ‘correctly’ and obey all sorts of rules and requirements.
There are plenty of good things that aren't restricted and bad things that are. But elites are human and aren't going to get it right every time, and you'll notice most the cases where they got it wrong.
No, because I have no way to improve my ability to see loopholes and flaws, so there's always going to be residual uncertainty that can't be reduced. Risk aversion does the rest.
Sorry, risk aversion.
Also, the usual situation of "if I think the main proposition is unlikely, bad outcomes will be dominated by cases where I miss loopholes in the bet or otherwise lose the bet for reasons unrelated to the truth of the proposition".
- 1 comment / hour
- i.e slow down a little, you may be getting into a heated exchange.
I just got screwed over by this, It strikes me as insane to be rate-limited to "slow down" and not get into a "heated exchange" when the limit is done by checking the user's karma for the last 20 comments from any time period. 20 comments from me go back months, I can't get all that much slower. And 3 downvoters and -1 is an awfully small limit, and easy to hit just out of bad luck.
Also, if you post from greaterwrong, and you hit the limit, your comment and the effort spent writing it is just lost.
But some of the writing in those old sacred texts is actually really good.
The Halo Effect (pun not intended) is very strong here.
I seldom see people who say things like this also say that the writing in the Koran is actually really good, for some reason. And not because there's some difference in how good the writing in the Koran and in the Bible is.
If you make a lot of educated guesses about the googolth digit of pi based on chains of reasoning that are actually possible for humans, around 50% of them will get its parity right.
(Of course that's reversed, in a way, since it isn't stating that the digit is uncertain.)
Reviewing WEIG on this blog provides another interesting point of contrast in The Categories Were Made for Man.
which in turn contrasts with Zack Davis' posts including The Categories Were Made for Man to Make Predictions.
That statement is not nonsensical, but "nothing" is not being compared as a quantity either.
There must be some quality (in this case quantity :puzzled:) on the basis of which a comparison (here quantitative) can be made.
There is sometimes a quantity on the basis of which a comparison can be made.
This quantity exists in 0 < 3. It doesn't in "nothing is bigger than X".
Am I not doing the same when I say ...
No.
"0 < 0.5 is a statement about the numerical value indicating nothing. "Nothing is greater than X" is a statement about the size of the set containing things greater than X. You are using "nothing" with two different meanings.
This is absurd. "Nothing is bigger than X" doesn't mean "there's a thing which is bigger than X". It means "the set of things bigger than X is empty".
It's not a relationship that can be directly described using the symbol "<". If you tried using similar reasoning to this post, the closest you'd get is "every member of the empty set is smaller than every member of the empty set". This is of course true.
Why can't you equally argue "caring for oneself may increase human suffering", and thus demand that you never favor yourself over other people?
“Of course not,” said Obi-Wan, “I mean, it’s theoretically possible. But I advise against it. The reflexes necessary to do so reliably are beyond the limits of human biology.”
In a world where you have some sort of precognition, no, the reflexes needed to do it are not beyond the limits of human biology.
I don't see why it should be limited to false beliefs.
Note that even if X is true, X->Y need not be true, and it can still be harmful to not be able to question X->Y.
Focusing on the "central point" in the midst of a lot of other "unimportant" points is a recipe for Gish gallops because you can claim that any point which has been refuted is an unimportant one. This forces your questioner to keep refuting point after point until you run out of them. That amounts to a Gish gallop.
If the point was important enough to strengthen your argument--and presumably it was or you wouldn't have used it--it's important enough that refuting it weakens the argument.
Any time you demand a license for something, that amounts to "if you don't do as demanded, men with guns will come and if you continue to disobey, will kill you or lock you in a cage". That should be enough to oppose this proposal. We've been through this before with cryptography rules, and even those were only about export.
Not to mention that even that assumes that the people handing out the licenses will be good at their job. If you actually implement this, you're not going to get licenses that require expertise; you're going to get licenses that require that you follow whatever arbitrary rule some committee and pressure groups have cooked up. The AI license is far more likely to be used to prevent business competition and to sound good in a political speech than to promote AI safety.
And using an international organization is even worse. The last thing I want is China and Russia getting a vote on what software I'm allowed to have.
In particular, I like to focus pretty hard on the central point (DH6) rather than supporting and tangential points.
This is a recipe for Gish gallops.
It also leads to Schrodinger's importance, where a point is important right up until someone looks at it and shows that it's poorly supported, whereupon it's suddenly unimportant. If it's important enough to use, it's important enough to be refuted.
Say I go swimming in a place where the lifeguard can’t see me. Is it my fault I drowned or the lifeguards?
The issue is not whose fault it is for the crime, but whose fault it is for the using up the extra resources to prevent the crime, which is not an issue in the lifeguard example. And that itself is a specific case of "how much more than average do you have to use the commons before you can be blamed for overusing the commons". Which is partly a matter of degree and depends on things like how much you use it, what people's expectations are, what reasonable expectations are, and what the intentions are of the people providing the resources.
My family doesn’t go to these casinos, we just travel to Vegas because we have friends nearby. We’re benefiting but not contributing.
I've done that myself (for busses to Atlantic City). Since the owner can change the price freely, and can change it incrementally or for specific customers, I'd generally not consider it to be overusing the commons if there is a price. In the case of loss-leader trips, it's also very hard to overuse the trips anyway, as opposed to just using them more than average--you probably couldn't use more than one trip every couple of days.
If stores in Taiwan charged for use of bathrooms, and the government rented out spaces for homeless on the ground, and charged a "homeless stay tax" which covers the costs of police and such, I would agree that it would be okay to go homeless and use them at the given prices. (If there is a two tier price where the homeless are charged more, the homeless tourist would have to pay the homeless tier price, and not cheat even if it isn't enforced well.)
I don't have to make up things after the fact to say "he probably chose the polygamy example because polygamy is weird". It's obvious.
He claimed that monogamy was rejected by the upper class sufficiently enough to cause divorce and single parenthood to spike
There are various types of opposition to monogamy. Outright support of polygamy is not the only one.
I can’t make up and apply new criteria like “bizarrely unconventional”,\
Yes you can. Of course, it's not "making it up", it's "figuring it out". If there are obvious explanations why he might want to use that example other than "he's biased against leftists", you shouldn't jump to "he's biased against leftists". And "polygamy is a lot weirder" is too obvious an explanation for you to just ignore it.
nor can I just accept Henderson’s framework when I’m critiquing it.
If you're criticizing his version and not your version, you pretty much are required to accept his framework.
I believe the relevant phrase is "aged like milk".
Sure, polyamory is bizarre and unconventional, but that only further undermines Henderson’s assertion that it was widely adopted (enough to have an impact) by both the upper and lower class of society circa 1960-1970s.
He's not asserting that the upper class rejected monogamy in a way that was widely adopted. He does say this about his classmates, but his classmates aren't the entire upper class.
You may be assuming that if the lower classes did it, and the upper classes promote it, that implies that the upper classes must be responsible for the lower classes doing it. That doesn't follow. A luxury belief is something that people have on an individual level, so there's no requirement that the individual have any influence. (In this case, I'd say that there are several aspects to rejecting monogamy, and some are common enough beliefs that the upper class may have some influence, and some are not. Polygamy falls in the second category.)
I didn’t present the oil tycoon story as a luxury belief example, but rather as an example of a story that carried the same “saying but not doing” lesson.
You said that he didn't use such a story because he thinks anti-leftist examples are uniquely compelling. "It isn't bizarrely unconventional" and "it isn't even a luxury belief" are alternate explanations to "he's biased against leftists".
I did present “support for a harsh criminal justice system” as an example of a luxury belief that Henderson would contest, even though it perfectly fits his template.
Support for a harsh criminal justice system isn't bizarrely unconventional, so there is still a reason other than "he's biased against leftists".
And luxury beliefs should imply a more extreme elite/non-elite imbalance than just "somewhat fewer people support it". A substantial number of poor people support a harsh criminal justice system, even if not as many as rich people. For the same reason, supporting Trump isn't a luxury belief.
I cannot fathom what Henderson finds so uniquely compelling about his particular version of the parable, except that it features a blatantly hypocritical leftist. Had his classmate been a Republican oil tycoon who extolled the virtues of going to church but didn’t go himself, would Henderson be repeating that story for so many years after the fact?
What makes it compelling is not that it features a hypocritical leftist, but that the belief he actually follows is the one professed by the vast, vast, majority of society, and the one that he claims to believe is bizarre and unconventional. The Republican not going to church wouldn't be a compelling example because the belief in going to church is not unconventional, and the belief in not going to church is, while common, not as overwhelmingly believed in as monogamy.
(And if you think that monogamy isn't like this, you're in a bubble. Remember when Scott claimed that exclusive marriage vows were just boilerplate that you weren't supposed to obey, and he got the biggest pileon ever saying otherwise?)
It's also questionable whether the Republican example is a luxury belief at all. In order for it to be a luxury belief, church would have to be harmful to church-goers and he would have to be avoiding the harmful effects by not going. You might try to say "well, church is time-consuming and that's harmful", but that's a very noncentral example of harm caused by church.
If the lower class copies one upper class trend but not another, isn’t that evidence they’re not impressionable lemmings aping everything they see?
Trends take a while to trickle down. So if the upper class returns to monogamy, the lower classes may not have gotten that far yet.
There's also trends that stick around because they are overall harmful, but they do benefit someone, and the benefit is also greater for poor people. If it was trendy to shoplift cheap items, the upper class wouldn't gain much from following the trend, so it would end easily. But the lower class would gain from successfully shoplifting even cheap items, so they would be much more willing to continue the trend, even though they also lose more from stores passing the cost of shoplifting on to their customers.
I'd ask you to estimate the distribution of the loss leader among customers and compare your usage of it to the average rate, and maybe the high end rate. I necessarily have to make up numbers, but I wouldn't be surprised if 50% of airline seats were cheap seats. It would then be impossible for you to use cheap seats at more than twice the rate of the average person. I'd also expect that even without you, there would be a substantial number of customers who use cheap seats all the time. If a substantial number use them all the time, you being a person that uses them all the time is not greatly far from what is expected. And I'd expect that the rate at which you take trips doesn't differ greatly from the rate at which those other people take trips.
It's true that if everyone only bought cheap seats, the price structure would be unsustainable. But there's a big difference between something that would be unsustainable if everyone did it and something that would be unsustainable if done by even a relatively small number of people. If 5% of the population used public restrooms as often as a homeless person, public restrooms would become unsustainable, never mind "everyone".
Also, some of the amenities in question are run by the government. The government doesn't do loss leaders; it doesn't let you camp out in public parks because it wants to attract more paying customers who incidentally might want to sleep there. It's a government, it runs on taxes.
Is me creating an opportunity for someone to commit a crime constitute my doing something bad to the commons or is it on the actual criminals?
It's on both.
The rest of it, about shoplifting, seems hard to connect, as no one is advocating doing something illegal.
The shoplifting comparison has nothing to do with whether shoplifting is illegal. The point of the comparison is that you can endlessly speculate that something really has a positive effect by imagining some scenario where it does. I am able to imagine such a positive effect for shoplifting, but it would not convince you that shoplifting is positive. I'm not going to be convinced that homelessness is positive by you imagining some scenario where it is.
If I guess I am contributing more than I am taking by my level of noise then is this okay?
My answer to this is the same as for the similar question about shoplifting: I would expect that if homelessness or shoplifting had a positive effect, stores and governments would act as though it does. You personally cannot become "okay" on your own--you don't get to decide that your shoplifting is actually contributing more to tourist publicity than it harms the stores, and you don't get to decide that your homelessness creates a positive contribution.
So then the first question is, “Did I personally contribute to an increased crime rate or decreased safety on the island?” I think the answer is obviously no, but I would be interested to hear if I am overlooking something.
You didn't commit extra crimes, but it requires more resources to protect you from crimes. (And again, since you are a single person, the extra resources get lost in the noise. But if many people did this, there would be more crime.)
You still aren’t giving any reason why I should assume I am contributing to bad outcomes instead of good ones or neutral ones.
I could say the same thing about the shoplifter. There are scenarios where shoplifting might, in theory, be a benefit to the stores. It would not be possible to prove that these scenarios are false. Maybe it really is true that tourists like being able to occasionally shoplift and otherwise spend enough money to make up for the loss. You can invent an infinite number of such scenarios.
What I can observe, however, is that stores don't gather together to promote an area of town as the shoplifting district, and nobody's trying to legalize shoplifting. The people who would best know about the consequences seem to think the bad outcomes are the realistic scenario. Likewise, Taiwan doesn't take out ads saying "come to Taiwan and experience being homeless" or even have designated homeless encampment areas, shopping malls don't compete on how good their homeless person amenities are, and I really doubt that being homeless gives you high status among your colleagues at work, if you even told them.
I’m normally suspicious of zoning but “you can’t put a garbage dump next to a school in a neighborhood” seems pretty basic.
Such zoning would itself raise the taxes you pay on your land.
You never mention, for example, my days spent snorkeling in Hualien.
I never mention it because you are not overusing it compared to someone in a home.
even regular middle class people might be using more of the countryside in a destructive way in their time off than I am
"People who are not causing the particular harm I am causing, may be causing different sorts of harm" doesn't really justify it.
To think of it another way, if a culture of (lawful and clean) vagabonds were to evolve in Taiwan, for all we know it might create a new culture of innovation, versus the “lie flat” culture that some of Asia is falling pray to.
This is a rationalization. It's like saying "if a culture of shoplifters arose, for all we know it could create a culture of innovation, where stores benefit from the publicity caused by shoplifting, customers consider stores with frequent shoplifters to have high quality goods so shoplifting attracts customers, tourists shoplift occasionally but spend more money in the areas where they shoplift, etc." You can always invent hypothetical scenarios where your harm doesn't really cause harm. The clause after the "for all we know" is wishful thinking and supported by nothing whatsoever.
Seriously, being homeless might create a Silicon Valley?
No, I don't concede that. Even for an empty lot, the guy who owns it presumably owns it for a reason. Like buildings, it's plausible that this reason 1) cannot just easily transfer to a new piece of land, and 2) is not reduced in value so much by the garbage dump that building the garbage dump isn't worth it.
Also, if he sells it, someone else can build a building on it, thus increasing the taxes he has to pay on the remaining portion. And if he builds a garbage dump, it discourages other people from building nearby and raising his taxes; selling doesn't do that.
And if they do, and I claim I already paid it, how certain are they I’m lying? And how likely are they to win the court case if so?
When you pay it off, Joey should be sending you a document stating that the debt is paid, and you should also have a record of a bank transfer or other paper trail showing that the money got to Joey. If his children demand the money and you claim you already paid it, the court will ask for this paperwork and will have no trouble deciding that you're lying if you can't produce it.
The answer to "why can't I just abuse the system?" is "they're not idiots; they'll have thought of it".
You're also stuck with the land since you've got some buildings on it and you can't move the buildings, so selling it has huge switching costs.
Of course, you'll need land to build the garbage dump on, but the garbage dump can affect the property values of a larger sized area than the actual dump. Also note that the garbage dump unequally reduces the value of different uses of the land, so the querstion "doesn't the garbage dump reduce the value of the building by enough to make up for the tax savings" may not be a yes. In some cases, the building that's already on the land may even produce a garbage dump as a side effect--consider a factory, for instance.
why not just sell your land to someone who would use it more productively to beguin with?
Because the market price of your land is zero.
At any rate, implicitly the system is designed for the number of people doing this. No?
No. That's like saying that stores' budgets are designed to allow for a certain amount of shoplifting (which is true), so it's okay to shoplift. The fact that the system is designed to survive some amount of cheating, and that it doesn't spend as much effort to catch cheaters as it could, doesn't make cheating okay.
Back to my question above, what actual drain did I pose on society?
That depends on your definition of drain. If by "drain" you mean "used far more than your fair share" everything you did that wouldn't be done so often by someone with a home was a drain. Your post mentions using public restrooms, using public places for sleeping, and being protected from crime even though you lived in the streets (and presumably was more vulnerable to crime than you would be in a home).
Other than keeping things clean and obeying laws, what should I do to make sure I haven’t done harm?
Get a home?
(And if your answer is "that means I have to pay for my restroom and sleeping space, and that would cost me money", that's pretty much the point.)
Society is set up to function under the assumption that most people have homes and are imposing those "costs". It is not set up to function under the assumption that a lot of people are homeless and use public restrooms, sleep in public places, etc. Those things can only exist because they are used by a small number of people under a rare set of circumstances.
You can describe homes as using "scarce space" but there's enough "scarce" space that most people can have homes and use some of it. The public restrooms in existence couldn't handle a situation where even 10% of the population was homeless, never mind most of the population.
This seems wrong. The construction of a building mainly affects the value of the land around it, not the land on which it sits.
That brings up the splitting question.
If two people owning adjacent parcels of land each build a garbage dump, they will in fact reduce both of their taxes since they each affect each other's.
And if we're going with "the government tracks such things and does calculations to prevent splitting from mattering" then it should be possible to build it on your own land and still get the tax reduction.
I am inclined to think "this is polluting the commons". All the things you used to survive are meant to be used by people who have homes and only occasionally need those things (and often pay indirectly, such as by making purchases in a store where they use the bathroom). The fact that they are free is a price structure that is only possible because people who use them are occasional users who rarely need them. Deliberately going without a home in the knowledge that you can survive using the free services is using much more than your fair share of the commons and if many people behaved like you, the free services would disappear.
Of course, you can argue "if they didn't want homeless people using them, they shouldn't provide them for free to homeless people". The consequence of this attitude, at large, is why we can't have nice things.
I am generally not thrilled with the idea of humor where the joke is how badly you can strawman your opponent. You also end up with Schroedinger's comedian, a phenomenon that happens a lot with real-world comedians too: the comedian is making an insightful comment about a real world issue, up until someone points out that they are saying something flawed or outright false, to which the reply is "it's just humor. It doesn't have to be accurate".
If I were a similar homeless man and needed food, I would have robbed someone. Yet that doesn't lead me to conclude anything negative about people who don't want to be robbed.
The problem with feeding prisoners vegan food to make their lives worse is similar to the problem with forcing them all to convert to Islam to make their lives worse--there's a group of people in the real world who would really like to convert others to Islam, and forcing prisoners to convert is a huge benefit to this group. The problem isn't just that the prisoners' lives are made worse; it's that it does so in a way which people are motivated to do for other reasons unrelated to prisoners or crime, creating both a moral hazard, and a dubious handout to outsiders who should not just be receiving handouts.
If a tech company forced me to move to NYC, I would object for a combination of two separate reasons: 1--any change in my life is going to be hard--it may take me away from people I know, I need to learn the geography again, I live in Lothlórien right now and if I move to NYC nobody speaks Quenya, etc. And 2--things that are specific about NYC above and beyond the fact that change is going to be a problem by itself; for instance, I might hate subways, and I might hate subways whether I'm exposed to lots of them or not.
#2 can be a personal problem for me, but I notice that people in NYC aren't, on the average, in general less happy than people who live elsewhere, so it seems like #2 isn't a real issue when averaged over the whole population. #1 can be an issue even averaged over the whole population, of course, but #1 isn't unique to moving to NYC, and applies to a whole bunch of other changes to the point where it's most of the way to being a fully general argument against any change.
I'd expect the same to be true in the case of AI: The "change is a problem" component is negative, but it's no worse than any other sort of change, and the "AI specifically is a problem" component would include some people who are harmed and some people who benefit and overall it's going to be a wash.
Or to put it another way, just because I wouldn't want a tech company to move me to NYC, that doesn't imply that NYC is a worse place to live than where I am now.
"This very clearly does not" apply to X and "I have an argument that it doesn't apply to X" are not the same thing.
(And it wouldn't be hard for a court to make some excuse like "these specific harms have to be $500m, and other harms 'of similar severity' means either worse things with less than $500m damage or less bad things with more than $500m damage". That would explain the need to detail specific harms while putting no practical restriction on what the law covers, since the court can claim that anything is a worse harm.
Always assume that laws of this type are interpreted by an autistic, malicious, genie.)
If your model is not projected to be at least 2024 state of the art and it is not over the 10^26 flops limit?
It's not going to be 2024 forever. In the future being 2024 state of the art won't be as hard as it is in actual 2024.
That developers risk going to jail for making a mistake on a form.
- This (almost) never happens.
Because prosecuting someone for making a mistake on a form happens when the government wants to go after an otherwise innocent person for unacceptable reasons, so they prosecute a crime that goes unprosecuted 99% of the time.
The bill says the $500 million must be due to cyberattacks on critical infrastructure, autonomous illegal-for-a-human activity by an AI, or something else of similar severity. This very clearly does not apply to ‘$500 million in diffused harms like medical errors or someone using its writing capabilities for phishing emails.’
"Severity" isn't defined. It's not implausible to read "severity" to mean "has a similar cost to".
I guess in the average case, the contrarian’s conclusion is wrong, but it is also a reminder that the mainstream case is not communicated clearly, and often exaggerated or supported by invalid arguments.
This enables sanewashing and motte-and-bailey arguments.
I've heard, in this context, the partial counterargument that he was using traits which are a little fuzzy around the edges (where is the boundary between round and wrinkled?) and that he didn't have to intentionally fudge his data in order to get results that were too good, just be not completely objective in how he was determining them.
Of course, this sort of thing is why we have double-blind tests in modern times.
What happens if you ask it about its experiences as a reincarnated spirit?