Boundary Placement Rebellion

post by tailcalled · 2023-07-20T17:40:00.190Z · LW · GW · 21 comments

Contents

  An Example: AI Safety vs Capabilities
  Broadening and Abstracting
  Boundary Placement Rebellion is a social dynamic, not a general factor
  Boundary Placement Rebellion is probably usually bad but occasionally justified
  Appendix: Stories
    Dominant Boundary Placement Rebellion
    Submissive Boundary Placement Rebellion
    Failed Boundary Placement Rebellion
    Neither BPR nor Clinical Narcissism, but potentially NPI "Narcissism"?
None
21 comments

The idea for this post all started because I was confused about the concept of "narcissism". I learned about "narcissism" from reading differential psychology, where they often measure it by asking people whether they agree with statements such as:

• I have a natural talent for influencing people
• Modesty doesn't become me
• I think I am a special person
• I really like to be the center of attention

In practice, empirically this correlates with being an assertive, confident person, which didn't match the discourse about narcissism, which typically seemed to more be about domestic abuse or people's ideologies, and it also doesn't AFAIK match the way "narcissism" gets used clinically, since clinical narcissists don't score higher than average on psychometric Narcissism scales used in personality psychology.

Eventually, something clicked about what people were saying about narcissism. They were talking about a dynamic that occurs when someone feels morally entitled to violate a boundary. Such a person can exhibit signs of narcissism because they become focused on enforcing their own views on the boundary, and put a lot of effort into gaining power to continue violating it.

Still, since I'm not sure whether what I'm talking about is actually "narcissism", I'm going to use a new, more descriptive term to refer to my concept: Boundary Placement Rebellion.

Boundary Placement Rebellion comes up a lot in my experience. It's a key issue in AI safety, as well as in civil rights, psychology research, hierarchies, families and other areas of society. For good and for bad, I think Boundary Placement Rebellion sees far more symmetry between the sides than "narcissism" does.

An Example: AI Safety vs Capabilities

Common sense - at least among many right-wing techies - is that you have the right to work on whatever software projects you want. If people don't like your software, they can just not buy it. There may be exceptions when it comes to software whose purpose is to be used as a weapon, such as ransomware.^[1] If new issues are discovered, then maybe we can update this norm, but we should also be careful to not strangle the tech industry with paperwork.

This is a boundary; you get sole decisive control over what you work on. AI capabilities research (as well as everything else in tech) makes a lot of use of this boundary, as it means that they can keep trying new things to push the state of the art. And of course earn lots of $$$ doing it.

Now suddenly a bunch of people are coming in, arguing that AI will lead to the end of the world! Suddenly, the boundary for AI capabilities researchers is being directly threatened. And they can't just be dismissed by saying "don't worry, I'm not gonna destroy the world", instead they will dump huge arguments for why it will inevitably happen. Or maybe some of them will say "you may be right, but we cannot know for sure, so we still gotta stop you".

The safety people's solution is that those who want to develop AI capabilities should either stop working on capabilities, or should pay the AI safety people engineer-level salaries to do philosophy, abstract mathematics, odd unprofitable ML experiments, premature safety tests, and similar.

If the AI capabilities researchers try to come up with different frames to make the AI safety people go away, then the AI safety people will just keep on pushing back against those frames, constantly coming up with reasons for why we're all gonna die anyway or whatever. And if you don't give them what they want, they're going to complain about you, sometimes even accusing you of being the person in the history of the world who has caused the most damage.

Broadening and Abstracting

The above shouldn't be seen as an argument against AI safety research. In this case, I'm actually fairly sympathetic to the AI safety side of things. So it's more an example of how Boundary Placement Rebellion isn't limited to places where you are in the wrong.

Still, it can definitely also happen in cases where you are in the wrong. The closest adjacent case where I am inclined to think the 'narcissist' is in the wrong is when rationalists derail everything to be about AI. "You should stop buying nets to protect Africans against pest-ridden mosquitoes because it's basically useless since AI is going to destroy the world", "I don't need to consider arguments that I am wrong to pay people who torture animals for my pleasure because I've offset it by dedicating my life to saving the world from AI", etc.

Now let's get to the definition:

Boundary Placement Rebellion concerns some boundary that is generally accepted within some social community, especially personal boundaries. It can be just about any boundary, from programming freedom to phone message privacy to respect for religion to sexual partner choice to private property ownership.

In a Boundary Placement Rebellion, the 'narcissist' feels a confident moral entitlement to violate some community's boundary, as well as an inelastic personal desire to violate it. I think it can take at least three forms:

• In the dominant case, the 'narcissist' is able to use power and manipulation to get away with violating the boundary, often in plain sight. This can leave people afraid of what the 'narcissist' might do if angered. Often, they will enforce that their particular moral frame is the only one that gets accepted and acknowledged when talking about the issue.
• In the submissive case, the 'narcissist' is not powerful enough to get away with it, but they might display vulnerability and appeal to someone who does have power. They might get those with power to act to enforce their views on their behalf, or they might even get everyone to support it. They can end up leaving people feeling confused or weirded out by it, as well as afraid of whichever powerful people they might appeal to.
• In the failed case, the 'narcissist' doesn't manage to enforce their views. However, rather than accepting that they were in the wrong, they become resentful and envious. Maybe they even escalate and become excluded from the community as a result.

Boundary Placement Rebellion is a social dynamic, not a general factor

Whenever I've researched narcissism, it has often been presented as a "general factor" - it has to be pervasive and driven by one's temperament, rather than an ideological disagreement limited to a specific context.

This is probably the main reason that Boundary Placement Rebellion would be distinct from narcissism. I think you should think of Boundary Placement Rebellion through a game-theoretic or ideological lens, rather than a personality lens.

That's not to say that Boundary Placement Rebellion is a brief state that automatically goes away; in order for Boundary Placement Rebellion to occur rather than just fall apart, there needs to be some persistent motivating factors, which could easily be persistent personality traits.

It's just that someone who is engaged in Boundary Placement Rebellion with respect to one boundary is not going to be particularly likely to be engaged in it with respect to some other random boundary. The exceptions would mainly be that their moral entitlements may motivate them to violate multiple boundaries at once.

Boundary Placement Rebellion is probably usually bad but occasionally justified

The way the concept of "Boundary Placement Rebellion" clicked for me is that I had an incel-ish type of person in a survey who complained about women being shallow, and when I integrated the complaint into pers0 as the item "If people don't want to date me, it's usually because they are shallow assholes", a personality psychologist who was reviewing the test commented that this sentiment does not represent a personality trait, but instead represents clinical narcissism.

There's a lot of important nuances to this - many romanceless men don't become radical, and one probably shouldn't jump to conclusions just from this one statement. But it crystallized a pattern - what the psychologist had in mind was a person who does not respect other's sexual boundaries as something they should have without repercussions.

And sexual partner choice is obviously a very important boundary to respect.

Similarly, many other boundaries are also very important, being held by the people who are best able to make decisions about them. And even when they are held by people who make terrible decisions, at least someone gets to make the decision, rather than there being irresolvable conflicts about them. Boundaries are a very effective way of handling disputes.

Still, boundaries can be used as weapons, and they can hold back progress, and there can be many other problems with them. So sometimes they need to be changed, and often within the frames of the people who subscribe to the old boundaries, this feels like a violation.^[2]

I think the term "Narcissism" implies that the boundary violations in question are inherently wrong. In contrast, Boundary Placement Rebellion takes a more value-neutral approach, which I think is useful for stepping back into a more objective view, making it possible to acknowledge that the dynamic exists and thinking about what can be done about it, without having to decide whether it is good or bad.

Appendix: Stories

I prompted ChatGPT to write some stories of the dynamic for me. I have one story for the dominant variant, one for the submissive variance, one for the failed variant, and one which I think illustrates the not-actually-narcissism phenomenon that I think gets measured by psychometric scales such as the Narcissistic Personality Inventory.

These are very much optional reading. I just found them useful along the way.

Also I 100% recommend using ChatGPT for illustrating social dynamics.

Dominant Boundary Placement Rebellion

In the tight-knit neighborhood of Pleasant Ridge, there's a beautiful park where families spend their afternoons, children play on swings, and the elderly feed pigeons. It's a serene oasis amidst the urban bustle. At the center of the park is the community garden, where each neighbor is allotted a small plot to grow anything they wish. There's a deep respect for these plots among the residents. They symbolize one's labor, creativity, and personal space.

Then there's Mr. Wilson, a long-time resident of Pleasant Ridge, who is known for his towering sunflowers and juicy tomatoes. His plot is always full, thriving, a spectacle for everyone to enjoy. However, Mr. Wilson has a peculiar belief that his love for gardening gives him the right to tend to other people's plots as well. His justification is simple: he is more knowledgeable, his hands more skilled, and his intentions good.

The first time he was found knee-deep in Mrs. Cooper's rosebushes, people were shocked. But he explained it away, assuring them he was merely helping, and being an influential and well-respected member of the community, his transgression was reluctantly accepted.

The episodes continued. Young Billy's pumpkin patch, Mr. Gupta's herbs, even the kindergarten's plot of wildflowers – Mr. Wilson was always there, pulling weeds, planting seeds, and dictating the layout as per his preference. People began feeling their spaces intruded upon, their creative liberty stifled. Yet, they were confused and hesitant to confront him because of his stature in the community and his relentless insistence that he was doing them a favor.

Despite the tension and discontent, nobody had found the courage to confront Mr. Wilson about this explicit violation of their personal boundaries. After all, he had not only convinced himself that he was doing the right thing but had also managed to blur the lines of what was acceptable and what wasn't in everyone else's eyes.

Mr. Wilson’s invasion of community garden plots remained a silent concern until Mr. Harrison moved in. Mr. Harrison was an accomplished botanist who'd retired from city life to enjoy the tranquility of the small neighborhood. When he heard about the community garden, he was thrilled and immediately claimed a plot.

Mr. Harrison was meticulous, he planted rare, exotic flowers that he had nurtured from seeds he'd gathered during his years of exploration. They were his prized possessions. It wasn't long before Mr. Wilson's prying fingers found their way into Mr. Harrison's plot. Seeing Mr. Wilson meddle in his garden made Mr. Harrison confront him. He was polite yet firm, expressing his concern over Mr. Wilson's unnecessary interventions.

Mr. Wilson didn’t take kindly to this confrontation. His self-perceived righteousness made him argue, "I've been tending these gardens long before you arrived. I know what’s best for them." His moral high ground was unshakeable in his eyes.

However, Mr. Harrison did not back down. He insisted that his plot was his private property and needed no interference. It seemed like the community would finally have a voice against Mr. Wilson's overbearing practices.

But Mr. Wilson had power and influence beyond his gardening prowess. He was a founding member of the Pleasant Ridge homeowners' association and was currently serving as its president. His decades-long association with the community had given him a level of social authority that was hard to challenge. Besides, he was a philanthropist, often funding community events and contributing generously to local causes. He was also the owner of the town’s most successful business, a bakery that was an employment source for many local families.

Mr. Wilson used his power to his advantage. At the next homeowners' meeting, he casually mentioned the possibility of an increase in community fees to cover various maintenance costs. He cited Mr. Harrison's exotic plants, requiring additional resources, as an example. He never directly threatened Mr. Harrison, but the implications were clear.

Mr. Harrison, though resolute, felt the community’s unspoken pressure. No one dared voice their support for him, fearing the consequences of getting on Mr. Wilson's bad side. Seeing the tension his stand was creating, Mr. Harrison eventually backed off, deciding it wasn’t worth causing friction within the community.

This experience only bolstered Mr. Wilson's belief in his right to intervene in the community garden, and once again, everyone became silent observers, their confusion and discontent drowned in the wave of Mr. Wilson's moral entitlement and power.

Submissive Boundary Placement Rebellion

In the quaint town of Breezy Creek, there was a public library that served as the community's heart. It was where kids would come to hear stories, adults to find books, and the elderly to read newspapers. One of the volunteers at the library was Lydia, an elderly widow. She was well-loved and known for her gentle smile and kind demeanor.

Lydia had a fondness for a particular genre - historical fiction. She believed that these books held more than just stories; they held lessons from the past, insights into human nature, and a wisdom that modern literature often missed. Lydia felt a moral obligation to ensure that everyone got a taste of this wisdom, that they too could learn from the past.

The library had a very fair system - everyone had the chance to suggest new books for the library to buy. All suggestions would be placed in a box, and each month the librarians would pick out several of these suggestions to purchase.

Lydia started to manipulate this system subtly. She'd write her suggestions for historical fiction novels, but instead of placing one suggestion, she would place multiple. Lydia thought she was doing the right thing, giving people a chance to explore something more profound and meaningful.

When her actions became noticeable and suspicious, a group of regular visitors confronted the library committee. Lydia confessed, but rather than being defensive, she explained her intentions with earnest conviction. She shared her passion for historical fiction, her belief in its transformative power, and her desire to share it with the town. She painted herself as a well-intentioned guide, pushing people towards a better path.

Lydia's powerful persuasion resonated with Martha, the head of the library committee. Martha, a retired history teacher, found Lydia's passion compelling. Lydia also appealed to Sam, the local mayor and a significant influencer in Breezy Creek, who admired Lydia's desire to leave a literary legacy.

Lydia didn't stop there. She shared her loneliness and how the library was her link to the community. Her vulnerability elicited compassion from the younger committee members like Julia, a high school student who empathized with Lydia's feeling of isolation.

Although there were others who felt Lydia's actions were unfair, they struggled to voice their concerns strongly. Those who were sympathetic to Lydia, including Martha and Sam, unintentionally enforced Lydia's perspective. They made subtle changes like organizing historical fiction book clubs, and arranging talks on the importance of learning from history. Sam even used his mayoral newsletter to praise the library's extensive historical fiction collection, indirectly endorsing Lydia's viewpoint.

Martha, in her position as the head of the library committee, found ways to downplay complaints against Lydia. She would dismiss them as misunderstanding or trivial compared to the significant "educational benefits" the town was reaping from Lydia's influence.

With the powerful backing of Martha and Sam, Lydia's manipulation of the system continued. Her passionate belief in the righteousness of her actions and the compassionate support from key influencers created a dynamic where Lydia's violations became an accepted, even celebrated, norm, despite the underlying discontent.

Failed Boundary Placement Rebellion

In the sprawling city of Newtopia, a clandestine artist known only as "Kite" operated under the veil of the night. Kite was a graffiti artist, a creator who expressed his artistry on the city's cold, gray concrete walls. For him, the city was his canvas, a vast space that needed color, emotion, and meaning.

Newtopia had strict regulations against graffiti, the city council believing it defaced public property and disrupted the clean, modern aesthetic they were aiming for. But Kite saw his art differently. He believed he was bringing life to an otherwise sterile cityscape, that he was infusing the city with a soul through his vibrant murals and cryptic taglines. Kite felt that his moral obligation to art and expression gave him the right to bypass the city's norms.

One night, Kite took on a massive project – the side of a prominent, privately-owned office building. His audacious masterpiece depicted the struggle of the working class, symbolized through chained hands breaking free. The mural was breathtaking and drew public attention, but it also brought the city officials down on Kite.

When he was eventually caught, Kite passionately defended his actions, arguing that his art was a service to the city, a mirror to society's harsh truths. However, Kite was an outsider, a rogue artist with no standing or influence in the city council or among the city's influential personalities.

He tried to gain the sympathy of the public, sharing his love for art and his belief in its transformative power. He even revealed his personal story, the son of an overworked factory worker trying to voice the unheard stories of his community. But the city's affluence and affinity for order over empathy made it hard for Kite's plea to resonate.

Kite's trial was swift. The city council, backed by several powerful property owners, was relentless. Kite's lack of power and social influence meant his plea fell on deaf ears. His actions were deemed vandalism, an unsanctioned violation of the city's rules, and he was fined heavily.

Left with a sense of resentment and envy towards artists who were given free reign over galleries and studios to express their creativity, Kite's defiance didn't waver. He still believed in his art, his cause, but the city's lack of understanding and acceptance stung. Despite the setback, he vowed to continue expressing his voice, his art, hoping that one day the city would see the value in his vibrant colors and powerful depictions.

Neither BPR nor Clinical Narcissism, but potentially NPI "Narcissism"?

Mara owns a popular bakery in town, known for its creative pastry designs and flavors. As she opens the shop every morning, she cheerfully announces to her team, "Let's make some delicious magic happen!"

She often daydreams about her bakery becoming a household name, imagining customers lining up around the block to get a taste of her pastries. She shares these dreams with her team, telling them, "We're going to put our little town on the culinary map."

In her industry, Mara has made connections with successful restaurant owners and acclaimed chefs. When a famous chef visits her bakery, she's excited to talk shop and exchange baking tips and tricks.

Mara cherishes the reviews and compliments her bakery receives. Each positive comment about her pastries brings a proud smile to her face. "Every compliment is a testament to our hard work," she says.

She is particular about the ingredients and equipment she uses, insisting on the best quality. She once spent an entire day visiting multiple suppliers to find the perfect cherries for her signature pie.

Sometimes, she capitalizes on her bakery's popularity. When the local newspaper asks for an interview, she uses the opportunity to highlight her upcoming pastry line.

Her focused and pragmatic approach can sometimes seem indifferent. When a new employee spends too much time chatting, Mara reminds them, "We've got customers waiting for our delicious treats."

She stays aware of her competition, always looking for ways to innovate. When a rival bakery introduces a new pastry, she takes it as a challenge and begins experimenting with her own recipes.

Her straightforward nature can sometimes come across as abrupt. A customer once asked her why she didn't offer a certain popular pastry, to which she responded, "Because we specialize in unique flavors. If you want common, there's a supermarket bakery down the street."

1. ^{^}

   Even weapons programming may normally get accepted if it is done for a purpose that is considered legitimate, such as the American military. Malware is considered an unusual special-case, rather than a normal case that needs to be focused on. Though of course a lot of e.g. medical software may be regulated thoroughly, but from what I've seen programmers are often pretty bothered by those regulations.

2. ^{^}

   Note that even though it feels like a violation, it doesn't have to be illegitimate by the formal rules. A democracy may full well allow the people to vote that Silicon Valley should be put under control and not develop AGI. I think in many ways, parents have a legal right to oppress their children. The main threats available to people who engage in Cancel Culture are boycotts and criticism, which are completely legal. Boundary Placement Rebellion seems to especially happen when there is tension between norms and power.

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