Spend Money on Ergonomics

I do like this sort of instrumental rationality post, but would like to see actual citations rather than mere claims of "overwhelming" evidence. Thanks for your service.

So here are a few reviews:

I got used Aeron chair (the thing lasts forever, unlike other chairs I had that seemed to last 6 months on average), 30" (2560x1600) monitor, Microsoft Natural Ergonomic Keyboard 4000 (which I use with Dvorak layout), and all of that was some of the best money I've ever spent. I also get the largest desk I could fit in my place, and I still regret that I couldn't get anything bigger. These are awesome ideas.

I tried many memory foam pillows, and they are a bit better than "normal" pillows, but I haven't been terribly happy about any of them. I always sleep on my side (I'm literally unable to sleep in any other position, no matter how tired, how the hell people sleep in airplanes or trains is a mystery to me) - people who sleep on their backs have very different pillow needs, so if you hear recommendation from someone who sleeps differently, disregard it completely.

Unless you're running a lot, and virtually nobody does, "barefoot shoes" seem entirely pointless, and their main effect will be marking you as a total nerd publicly.

Fidgeters are much less likely to be obese than non-fidgeters.

Correlation called, it wants its causation back.

Also if you're looking for low hanging fruit, even very modest amount (1-3h weekly) of light to moderate physical exercise does wonders to energy levels and general mood. inb4 anybody asks it's been proven in every study imaginable to have zero effect on weight either way.

Second also: Ninja Zemgears seem to have highly polarized reviews online - some people's feet fit well and they're happy, other people's feet don't and they hate them. This problem probably applies to all "barefoot" shoes, since they need tighter tolerances than traditional shoes, and traditional shoes already have fitting problems with plenty of people, so people usually buy them in person than online. Also plenty of people complain about durability.

We can hack this a little by working while lying down

Almost all guides on how to prevent insomnia recommend not lying in bed doing anything else than resting or having sex so that you (roughly speaking) “won't confuse your body/brain about when it's supposed to rest and when it's supposed to work”, and in my experience that works quite well (even though I would describe that more like “you will be tired enough that it will be easier for you to fall asleep when you go to bed”).

Even just learn to type properly. I'm shocked how many people who type all day every day haven't bothered to spend a few weeks. (See linked post for full rant on the subject.)

The Microsoft squishy keyboards are very nice. Definitely my favourite Microsoft product ever. I have one at work, paid for by work - see if you can get one from your workplace.

(What I really want is a Microsoft Natural layout with Model M buckling-spring keys.)

"I like memory foam mattresses. A minority of people really don't."

I tried a memory foam mattress - the Tempurpedic Cloud Supreme, queen size. This is a $3000 bed. It felt amazingly soft in the store. But when I tried it at home, it was unbearable, for 2 reasons:

• I don't roll over in my sleep. Doctors don't believe me, but I don't. Memory foam is very good insulation. So I would wake up around 3AM, drenched in sweat, because the foam underneath me was about a hundred degrees Fahrenheit, then roll over to a cold part of the bed, then wake up 3 hours later when that part got hot.

• People talk about getting back support from a bed. You don't want back support. At least, not when we're talking about the small of your back. With soft memory foam, the heaviest parts of your body - your torso and your butt - sink deeply into the foam over time. The small of your back does not. Pretty soon your body is in an upside-down-U shape, with torso and butt sinking down into the bed, while between them the small of your back is bent over a lump of memory foam that it isn't heavy enough to squash. Painful.

Before that, I had a semi-wave waterbed, a very cheap one (for a waterbed). It was a terrible hassle to move (you could never drain out all the water, so it still weighed about 150 pounds empty), but wonderful to sleep on. In the summer, I didn't need air conditioning at night; I controlled my temperature by how many blankets I put between me and the water. In the winter, heating the bed was probably cheaper than heating the house.

Citations desperately needed. Your methodology seems to be, "If someone tries to sell me something claiming it is more ergonomic, it must be better enough to be worth the money!" In particular, I recall reading (I will see if I can find my source shortly) that the studies showing Dvorak keyboards superior were run by Dvorak himself, and subsequent studies have failed to duplicate his results. I don't know about Aeron chairs or the other things you mention. I can confirm that Aeron chairs are comfortable, but have seen (first because I haven't looked) no evidence that they are better long term.

Edited to add: XKCD mentions it, but then there's this leading here, but also pointing out this and this counter to the original article. In any event, it seems wrong to say that Dvorak is clearly better - things generally seem murky. For me, 1) the ability to sit down at any computer and immediately have my full typing speed, and 2) not having to retrain significant habits, and 3) not having to reconfigure all of my keyboard heavy programs are clear and significant benefits of QWERTY. Trading these off for questionable gains is foolish. Trading these off for clear gains may make sense - but show me the studies.

Has there been any research into the effects of turning your monitor to portrait (e.g. 1024x1280) rather than landscape? I have my work monitor set up this way and it's so much better for pretty much everything I do with it. Landscape is good for watching movies from across the room, but PDFs and terminals and web pages and spreadsheets and documents in general work very well indeed in portrait.

ETA: I set younger teen's PC up this way and she refused to go back to landscape. She's a complete and utter technophobe whose usage pattern is social media, YouTube and Windows Live Chat. I don't think she even bothers swivelling it back for movies. I recommend people try it and see if they like it.

Is there any data supporting the idea that dvorak/colemak/some other new keyboard layout are actually better than qwerty. Like, actual data collected by doing research on actual people that type stuff, how their layout of choice affects their health and typing speed. I do know that you get figures like "on average your fingers travel twice the amount if you type on qwerty as compared to some other layout", but actual data from actual typists?

Thanks for opening the floodgates on this topic. The bikeshedding reactions strike me as kind of silly, given that "failing to even try to optimize for ergonomics" is a much bigger and more prevalent issue than any of the individual decisions.

While we're trading good ergonomics secrets, I'll point out that Mac BreakZ is pretty exceptional as these things go. If you're banging away on a MacBook every day like me, you should start using this before you get a repetitive stress injury (RSI).

Also if you already have wrist-strain issues, try typing in Dvorak. Seriously. Due to my past computer usage, I used to have to wear uncomfortable wrist braces every night to prevent my fingers from constantly going numb. After several years of suffering with this and assuming I would one day need carpal tunnel surgery, I switched to Dvorak. A month later, all my symptoms disappeared. I was able to stop wearing the wrist guards. 7 years later and still no problems.

As far as "the world is mad" and "people don't even try to optimize stuff", the fact that anyone still uses Qwerty keyboards when, free, strictly superior layouts have existed since before computers were invented is definitely a canary in the coal mine of rationality.

One shoe that I can recommend for the "barefoot" style people is the Feiyue. It is very, very padding-light (designed for martial arts), very inexpensive (~15-20 USD from Amazon.com), and doesn't look as affected as other "barefoot" shoes can. Indeed, the rights to produce Feiyue and Feiyue-inspired shoes in the West are owned by a French company that has attempted to make Feiyue a style icon, so I've actually received compliments on mine on the streets.

Of course, the "stylish" French version costs 3-5x as much and doesn't have the padding-light qualities of the original, while looking very similar, so I find myself in the somewhat unusual position of advocating that everyone buy Chinese instead for superior quality. You should be able to tell the difference because the Chinese ones are much less expensive and sized differently, whereas the French ones start at about 50 USD and use Western sizing. The Chinese ones are also only available in black and white, with both hi- and lo- top versions, while the French ones come in a wider variety of colors and styles.

For writing, Dvorak is great. But it doesn't play nice with unix shell commands. Try typing ls -l in Dvorak and you'll see what I mean.

If you're a coder, try a modern layout like Colmak.

Since commenting on old posts is now, like, officially encouraged, I'll share my experiences here.

First, Aeron chairs ARE NOT FOR EVERYONE. I worked in an office where every chair was an Aeron for more than a year, and it was a source of deep physical misery. Yes, I know that they're highly adjustable; I'm pretty sure I messed with every single flap, knob, and lever on them. But none of those doo-dahs fix my fundamental problems with the Aeron.

The Aeron's design forces you into an 'ergonomic' sitting position. This is terrible, because I hate sitting and am apt to change my position every couple minutes (I particularly like pulling my knees up on the chair next to me; I know some other people who work with their feet on their desk), but the Aeron won't let you do this, because its curved seat means that you basically just fall off if you're doing anything other than sitting directly on your butt.

It is doubly terrible because, even if I conceded the point and tried to sit on my butt, I still wouldn't be able to sit ergonomically, because my feet could never reach the ground. I am about 5'3" (~160cm), which is a fairly normal height for an adult female, and the only way I could sit with my back against the Aeron's backrest and my feet on the ground, was to lower the chair so much that I was comically far below the level of the desk. I would again partially blame this on the design of the seat - I think it's relatively deep, and I think the curve at the edge encourages my legs to point forward rather than down.

tl;dr if you're fidgety, are shorter than the average male adult (maybe shorter than 5'6"? but I'd guess the comfort on the chair depends more on the length of your legs than on your overall height), have chronic pain, and/or can't stand sitting on your butt all day, don't spend your hard-earned money on this torture chair of misery. God I hate these things so freaking much.

A useful article, thanks. I particularly appreciate the context of spending money on ergonomics as we'll use it for 80000 hours, or so! Very interesting way to rationalize spending money on ergonomics.

I find using a Fitball as a chair facilitates the fidgeting mentioned and it's quite real that using an appropriately sized fitball will provide many of the ergonomic standards, like horizontal thighs and forearms. A fitball doesn't facilitate a straight back, instead it encourages one to strengthen one's core muscles and hence decreases lower back pain induced by overworked back muscles and under-strength core muscles. I tend to cycle my use of a fitball for a week or two, then put it away for a few months.

+1 for latex mattress, my wife and I bought one recently and we can confidently say that our sleeping is better, and have distinctly noticed that when I get into bed late at night and she's already in bed, that my movement doesn't wake her - that's a huge +1 for us late nighters! Another bonus for latex mattress is apparently they are resistant to dust mites and other forms of bed bugs.

With regards to pillows - has anyone considered the optimum height for a pillow per person? Seems to me that if one sleeps on one's back a pillow is unnecessary and may be detrimental in that it could contribute to forward head. Whilst if one sleeps on one's side then the appropriate pillow height is the thickness of one's shoulder, to facilitate the spinal column being in the same horizontal plane. If you're a sore neck (or headache) person spend some time thinking about the pillow!

Also barefoot walking is known to strengthen the small muscles in ones feet and ankles, this has useful benefits for posture and injury prevention. For those of us who work at home, going barefoot is quite easy, others who must be more physically social will also get peeved off answering the 20 questions a day "why are you barefoot?"

Happy festive season friends.

We can hack this a little by working while lying down, though many people have trouble focusing given the implied lack of focus of a lying down position.

The second part of this sentence matches my experience: I foolishly tried saving the cost of a desk for a while by using my computer lying in bed. Eventually I bought that desk and it was one of the best investments I ever made: my ability to stop procrastinating and avoid distractions went through the roof as soon as I was upright.

not enough space, and bouts of blanket stealing

An extra blanket solves that problem for about $20. A full-size bed will suddenly feel large when you don't have to snuggle just to fit under a blanket. Oh, and get that dog off the bed.

I'm new to this site and I love the title, "less wrong". As a ergonomics trainer, I can identify with the "less wrong" concept vs bio-mechanical perfection which, is usually unobtainable in the average (even above average) workplace. That said, I see a number of people taking exception to the idea of "working in bed". I would absolutely agree that routinely working in bed is just plain inadvisable whether one thinks this is ok or not. Good ergonomics is as much about breaking bad habits as it is about adopting new ones. This is a good example. I also wonder about memory foam. I once thought this was a great idea and found that it was not the cure-all that I thought it would be. I think it may be a matter of preference but, that's also what people used to say about water beds. We now know that water beds are probably not good for you. I suspect memory foam mattresses may eventually fall into a similar category since they tend to negate the body's natural positional changes throughout the sleep cycle. Don't get me wrong, memory foam has it's place such as relieving pressure points if one has to stay in one position for long periods (like the the apollo astronauts sitting in their cramped space capsules or bed ridden individuals). Well, that's my two cents worth.

I'll buy a toe shoe when they're warm, waterproof, and increase my height by an inch and a half. :P

/me loves his hiking boots

Ergonomic keyboards are nice, but even more importantly, I'd recommend one with mechanical switches. Best thing I ever bought. Cherry has good cheap ones, but mechanical switches last forever, so you could also go with an old Model M. I also use my own custom keyboard layout, but Dvorak is just as good for most users, really, but I'm an Emacs user, so there. (I use 7 modifiers. Don't judge me.)

Honestly, I don't get office chairs. I think they're all horrible. I use big, comfortable reclining chairs with plenty of pillows. Recent research backs me up on this.

(The links are all first Google hits, so I apologize, but I didn't have the time to look for good sources.)

I'm a university student trying to decide between the Torbjorn and an Aeron. Normally I'd just go with the cheaper option, but I'd like to know if there's enough of a difference to justify spending ten times more on the Aeron. I've worked in an Aeron before, and while they're very comfortable, I don't want to drop that kind of money on comfort without long term benefit.

Does anyone have any numbers or anecdotal evidence to help sway my decision in either direction? Thanks!

Also, DVORAK is strictly better than QWERTY, ignoring the inconvenience of being forced to switch back and forth between keysets.

Extra Datapoint: I've used Dvorak since I was 13. It took me maybe a week or two of using it to do my homework before I felt comfortable. Back in 1998, it was a pain in the ass for my family for the first few years because it was tricky to switch the computer back and forth, but this is a solved problem in modern OSs. The last time I experienced the slightest inconvenience from using Dvorak was 4 years ago when I was in college and using locked-down library computers.

Completely Anecdotal, Probably Worthless Datapoint: I program computers for a living. I have never experienced RSI.

One thing that was saliently missing from this post: the importance of being able to move screens and input devices around. I got an Ergotron Dual Arm and it's great, and I also have made sure to set up so that keyboard and tablet can be moved around a very large surface. Not only does this allow optimizing the positions, it also enables a second type of fidgeting.

Not sure if you count it, but another thing is light levels, screen size and quality, and even basic aesthetics. And things like air quality and temperature to I guess... Yea, maybe those should be in a more general "work environment" post.

Anyone have an estimate or range on how long it takes to switch from QWERTY to DVORAK? I copy at about 80 wpm and compose at about 30 wpm, and have invested about 100 hours in learning / drilling / exploring QWERTY techniques. How long should I expect to spend learning DVORAK?

My current stack of optimizations:

Keyboard layout: NEO 2.0 - optimized for German. Maybe someone feels like putting together a engl. version. It has some added niceness besides the arrangement of the letters. For engl. users Colemak seems best.

Using as much monitor space as can fit on the desk. 24" monitors are affordable now. I use a few of them. For traveling I have a underpowered netbook, that is lightweight and still fine.

To use multiple computers on the same desk check out synergy. It is just awesome.

All my computers run f.lux, which dims them down at nighttime. No idea if it is actually useful, but it seems nice.

Setting up synchronization between computers might take a while, but is worth it. I use Dropbox + some Truecrypt. Other tools might be great too.

In general: automate tasks that are simple and repetitious.

This should be crosslinked with the http://lesswrong.com/lw/gx5/boring_advice_repository/ (there are some entries present that give some of your advice exactly (albeit shorter).

That ergonomic keyboard link is not $25. Perhaps it was on sale?

If you must do your computing while sitting (and do consider alternative standing desks, treadmill desks, or a desk suited to computing while lying in bed), then a good chair is a stunningly good investment.

You didn't mention sitting on the floor! The best solution here is to ditch your chair, get a low table, and start sitting on the floor.

Also, DVORAK is strictly better than QWERTY, ignoring the inconvenience of being forced to switch back and forth between keysets.

And carpalx is strictly better than DVORAK. It even has an option to keep zxcv in place, which makes adoption that much easier (as those are the most common shortcut keys).

I'm 5' 11'' and I just can't quite fit in my Hyundai Elantra. No matter how I adjust the seat, I can't get in a perfectly ergonomic driving position.

This surprises me, as I am 6'0" and my dad is ~6'2" and we both enjoy our Elantras. Is the issue leg room, height, wheel position, something else? Could you fix it by adding a cushion to the chair (cheaper than replacing the car, btw :P)?

Whatever slight advantage it might offer is offset by the risk that your arms are between the airbag and your body during a crash.

These are the sorts of comments that could use a citation, or at least a mention of the tradeoff involved.

What can I do given that my home computer sits on a desk which comes up almost to my chest, and my mouse is in front of my computer on the edge of the desk, so that in order to use it, I have to let my arm hang down from the shoulder, bend back up at the elbow, then forward with the edge of the desk touching my wrist? I've tried setting the mousepad on my knee, but the armrest of my chair gets in the way. And I still have to move both arms back up to type, and they're sitting on the table to get them into typing position. Needless to say, of late, my right wrist hurts...

This exercise ball chair helped me a lot with lower back pain. It's also a lot of fun and stress-relieving to bounce around while working! Additionally I built a high table to occasionally type standing up, which is also fun/effective.

I'm mildly surprised that the suggestion for an ergonomically sound chair is something like this and not something like this. I now stand at my desk, but when I was sitting, I found the kneeling chair far more comfortable than any conventional chair.

On the car thing, if you can't improve it maybe you can decrease it. Have you investigated your local mass transit options? I travel entirely by train, and it's very comfortable because I have room to change position whenever I want. Also, I get my commute time back as reading or gaming time. Granted, I live in NYC, which makes it easier, but many cities have more options than you'd expect.

I realize moving closer to your destinations, or to a city with better mass transit, are very big deals and probably not worth it for the ergonomics alone, but next time you move anyway, this may be worth keeping in mind.

One nice thing about memory foam is that it doesn't transmit vibrations from one side to the other.

I suspect that if you're using this app, that wouldn't be so “nice” (though I've never actually used it on a memory foam mattress myself).

Interestingly I can sit and work on the PC almost the whole day with no problem (I do shift positions a lot and have breaks, move around). But I can't read a book for a comparable time-span without getting neck and shoulder ache. And that despite changing positions a lot more. Reading while standing, while sitting, which laying in all kinds of ways. Does anybody have an idea why?

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Marginally ergonomic issue, but in the "optimization via computer peripherals" bucket Twiddler keyboard looks interesting http://handykey.com/specs.html. For one you can type in bed without need for a table, but also good potential input for wearable computers that are around the corner. See http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_V2i_7oX8mw (I think this guy is working on http://9to5google.com/2011/12/19/google-xs-wearable-technology-isnt-an-ipod-nano-but-rather-a-heads-up-display-glasses/)

I've noticed that the temptation to rest the arms which you've mentioned with regard to office chairs also happens, in a different way, when I'm driving. When I'm lazy or tired I sometimes allow my arms to fall, and just hold them up by clinging on to the steering wheel. This is not good for stability of steering.

This post is the typical mind fallacy (well, typical body fallacy, as the case may be) running rampant. Almost all advice you state as unconditionally useful works for some, but does not work for others.

QWERTY keyboard may or may not be an issue, depending on the person. Same with chairs, desks, mattresses, bare feet, Mac vs PC (OK, you didn't discuss that one, but it felt like you did), fidgeting, car[seat] choice...

No one ever regrets improving their ergonomic well-being.

But quite a few find that it was not worth the price and did not live up to the expectations.

At least put a general disclaimer, like "Your Mileage May Vary".

A Kinesis Advantage contoured keyboard is amazing. Hard to get used to. I would use it, but it doesn't have the windows keys, which I remap to the mouse buttons. The single worst thing you do at your computer is click the mouse button. You must not click mouse buttons. The entire wonderful ergonomic Kinesis keyboard is not worth clicking mouse buttons for.

Also, the 'esc' key on the Kinesis is truly horrible. It's basically a tiny, mushy, rubber mouse button way up in the corner that's hard to press and doesn't work half the time. Literally the single worst key I have seen on a keyboard, ever, including the Timex Sinclair and my smartphone touchpad.

This post and its associated comments sicken me. I feel quite unwell.