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comment by ChristianKl · 2021-02-03T16:33:51.853Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The coordination website even kind of already exists—there’s a list of coordination tools/projects found here. None of them do what we need, though.

To me this sentence reads like you haven't put in the work to analyse why those tools don't do what's needed and why you think a new tool would do what's needed. 

I began writing this before r/WallStreetBets happened. Think about how wonderfully this second idea would work for coordinating them, though!) 

This again reads like not having seriously thought about the issue. Stock market manipulation is illegal. It's a lot easier to argue that you aren't really doing illegal coordination in the case of r/WallStreetBets where you have moderators that delete posts that look to much like illegal coordination then your system that wants to make it more explicit. 

The idea of creating a website for possible illegal activity to attack billion dollar entities and expect to have access to credit card processing seems strange to me. 

suppose you want to demand reform the FDA, but the lizards in office won’t do anything unless a critical mass of people demand it.

I think that's a very poor theory of change. Real world change needs a lot of negotiating between stakeholders and finding reforms that actually acceptable to a variety of stakeholders and not just a certain amount of people who ask for reforms at a single moment in time.

Replies from: Lumpyproletariat
comment by Lumpyproletariat · 2021-02-04T21:29:26.864Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It isn't pleasant when a critical response garners more upvotes than the original post. I tell people that I'm not thin-skinned, but that's only because I don't respect most people. I respect LessWrongers, so this rather stung.

"To me this sentence reads like you haven't put in the work to analyse why those tools don't do what's needed and why you think a new tool would do what's needed."

You'll need to tell me how you do those block quotes, they are neat.

Thanks for the feedback; this is something I'll keep in mind next time I write something. An earlier draft had disparaging things to say about Collaction and Actuator in particular (as they're the only things I'm aware of which try to exist in the same space as the working tool)--I cut them because I wasn't sure how to make them sound less mean spirited (and I hold no particular bad feeling towards those who made them); I thought that criticism was redundant when paired with a lengthy diatribe on what I thought a working product would need--apparently this was wrong.

"This again reads like not having seriously thought about the issue. Stock market manipulation is illegal. It's a lot easier to argue that you aren't really doing illegal coordination in the case of r/WallStreetBets where you have moderators that delete posts that look to much like illegal coordination then your system that wants to make it more explicit."

I am broadly ignorant of many things which strike other people as being too obvious to explain, on account of being as yet young and on account of my lumpenproletariat upbringing; I'm fixing this but it takes time. I wasn't aware that redditors coordinating in this manner would be less legal than a singular firm doing so--chalk this one up to lacking basic knowledge of the shape of the finance system.

(Still, wouldn't it be possible for redditors to create a firm of their own, if they needed to? I don't see that this is an insurmountable problem.)

"The idea of creating a website for possible illegal activity to attack billion dollar entities and expect to have access to credit card processing seems strange to me."

The iterated product would benefit from better anonymity, but I know nothing of cryptography or cryptocurrency and am trying to avoid premature optimization in that regard.

"I think that's a very poor theory of change. Real world change needs a lot of negotiating between stakeholders and finding reforms that actually acceptable to a variety of stakeholders and not just a certain amount of people who ask for reforms at a single moment in time."

I swear I'm not as stupid as betimes I come across in writing! Language isn't my format.

I was trying to point at a class of problems without dwelling overlong on the specifics. Certainly I wasn't detailing any theory of change; I don't think we disagree on any factual thing, in this regard.

 

But, are these objections important to you? To me, they all seemed like trivial things to quibble over--except perhaps the first. What do you think about the general idea? I see that it's not gaining traction quickly, is that because I'm bad at communication, or because the idea is a poor one? I'd appreciate having this spelled out to me.

Replies from: mikkel-wilson, ChristianKl
comment by MikkW (mikkel-wilson) · 2021-02-05T03:28:51.624Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

You'll need to tell me how you do those block quotes, they are neat.

If you put a > at the start of a line, it will make the line into a quote

Replies from: kjz
comment by kjz · 2021-02-06T22:32:25.520Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I didn't know that! OP, you can also highlight the desired text and click the block quote button. You can also add links that way.

comment by ChristianKl · 2021-02-06T21:03:14.410Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I thought that criticism was redundant when paired with a lengthy diatribe on what I thought a working product would need--apparently this was wrong.

For your project to be successful (be promising to contribute to) that those other running the other projects didn't understand. 

If you have a thesis like: "The other projects lacked crucial thing X but my project will have X" then that's an argument that's possible to evaluate. 

I wasn't aware that redditors coordinating in this manner would be less legal than a singular firm doing so--chalk this one up to lacking basic knowledge of the shape of the finance system.

It's illegal to artificially inflate or deflate of the price of a security. Generally when it comes to individual companies intent to artificially inflate the price of a security is relatively hard to prove. If you however make an explicit deal to artifically inflate the price of a security, it's quite easy in court to argue that this is what happens. 

However even if you win the court battle, the court of credit card companies is still there to judge companies. 

The iterated product would benefit from better anonymity, but I know nothing of cryptography or cryptocurrency and am trying to avoid premature optimization in that regard.

Cryptography doesn't help you from being cut off from processing credit cards. If we would live in a world where people regularly pay with crypto that might be an alternative but we don't live in that world currently. 

But, are these objections important to you? To me, they all seemed like trivial things to quibble over--except perhaps the first. 

Having good examples where the proposed framework would actually useful is important.

comment by ozziegooen · 2021-02-05T04:00:14.716Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Happy to see enthusiasm and initiative here. I tried starting a few web startups in college and after; almost none worked, but the experience was useful.

I think you're massively underestimating the challenge of this. There were many products like Kickstarter before Kickstarter. To be successful you often need a combination of technical talent, marketing, and luck. This isn't to say that it's not worth a more intense endeavor; just that I wouldn't be as optimistic as your post sounds.

You sound quite similar to other young entrepreneurs I have known. Some wind up being successful, sometimes in part because of their overconfidence. Entrepreneurial claims often work better in other markets than rationalism / EA; when posting in places like this especially I suggest keeping things a bit more humble. 

So overall I think this is quite a bit more challenging than I think you think it is, but I don't want to discourage you from trying (though I really hope the process doesn't involve you burning over-hyped colleagues). I imagine more people making attempts at these things could be quite good overall.

comment by Slider · 2021-02-03T12:49:38.684Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I don't think postponing the payment does any good. If a person can't afford to put in the money rigth now they might fail to input when it is needed. Failing to put in the money when called upon would be really bad for the reliability of it.

In a case where failers are charged the process of verifying and ruling whether a thing was followed throught should be pretty robust. There might be user group and behaviour of "eggers" which do all kinds of actions to make others do things but don't actually themselfs do anything, such as hoping a protest happens without actually going themselfs. This could also seens as a possibly legit stance, ie if above board could be a constructive force.

Selling people that and action is a good idea is one part of it. However I see the core of it as people following one signal, that somebody gets to make a somewhat arbitrary choice which everybody else locksteps on. This would be like on what week or day the action happens. There the main thing would be to share contact info that the signal reaches when it is given.

Replies from: Lumpyproletariat
comment by Lumpyproletariat · 2021-02-04T21:29:48.240Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Good points.

comment by [deleted] · 2021-02-03T05:35:54.888Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

In case you haven't seen, similar projects exist:

collAction

See also previous discussion here [LW · GW]

Replies from: Lumpyproletariat
comment by Lumpyproletariat · 2021-02-03T05:51:06.267Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I've seen. Though, as said in the post, "If I want to organize something important, I would not consider using Actuator nor Collaction."