The Craft & The Community - A Post-Mortem & Resurrection

post by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-02T03:45:46.384Z · LW · GW · 107 comments

Contents

    Preface
    Introduction
    Post-Mortem - What went wrong?
  Problems and causal factors
    Demographics - Background selection effects
      Problems caused in the Truthseeking/epistemic circle:  
      Problems caused in the Impact/instrumental circle:  
      Problems caused in the Human/community circle:  
      There are, to my knowledge, only three routes to solving these demographic issues on a wider basis:  
    Environment - Picking the wrong location
    The background cultural environment
      If we had founder effects before, now we have founder effects squared.
    Social turnover has increased to the point where it has major effects on incentives
      Loss of insider knowledge
      Ramp up time for new recruits
      Reduced coordination between individuals
      Significant turnover incentivises defection 
      False economies - Decreasing quality of consumer goods
      Human capital coordination problems - Massive college graduate underemployment. 
      Weakened social bonds - Most people have very few close friends
      Customer service - Loss of personal touch
      Conclusion and further examples
    Reduced ability to mitigate problems
  Economics - Time, Money, Spoons and future plans
      Effects on time
      Effect on spoons/ability to do anything else
      Money constraints
      Future plans/life goals
      The housing crisis is politically unsolvable
    Culture - Not taking the Sequences seriously
    Recap
    What can we do about this?
  The Craft and the Community - Resurrection
    Intro 
    Demographics - Getting a broad range of talents
      Focus on in-person recruitment
      Create better introductory materials
      Discovering the reasons that cause people to leave
      Champion existing members displaying the traits you want to see more of
      Create a community those people would want to be a part of
      Feminine/people oriented women
      More emphasis on norms that promote community
      Not undervaluing female coded values, interests and skillsets
      Better onboarding and recruitment - Communicating our benefits
      Already successful people
    Environment - Manchester works for us, we don’t work for Manchester
      Why Manchester?  
      A low cost of living
      Decent hourly wages, and good job opportunities in our chosen fields
      For the goal of human flourishing
    Culture - More productivity, less philosophy
      Recognize you don't always have the convenience of operating in abundance
    Conclusion
None
108 comments

Epistemic status: Broad, well-developed speculation.

Preface

To my knowledge, this essay contains the most comprehensive list of criticisms of the rationality community to date. Understandably, some people may take this as a rejection of the community as a whole. It is not. In order to fix problems affecting a non-hierarchical group, individuals within the group need to have a shared understanding of them. In order to do this, someone has to look under the hood and report back with their findings.

Most people are aware there is something wrong in a general sense. There is, to some extent, an awareness that things aren’t quite right but little consensus at to whether it's analogous to a vitamin deficiency or more like a malignant neoplasm.

Solutions vary, depending on the type and extent of the problems. As such, if the consensus is that they are relatively trivial, some solutions are going to look like amputating a leg to deal with a discoloured toenail. If however, the problems are more serious, the majority of solutions proposed up to now look a lot like putting a bandaid on a bullet wound. This is the crux of it, and I expect most negative responses to this will boil down to disagreement over the size, scope and urgency of addressing the problems.

That also includes disagreements over tone; if you spot an axe murderer prowling the library, you are well within your rights to warn people by screaming at the top of your lungs. Unless you are following an absolute version of Kantian ethics, the value tradeoffs you make should vary based on what you are trying to accomplish. In the above example, alerting potential victims of an axe murderer is of far higher importance than maintaining the decorum of the library. This applies to less extreme problems too, tailored to their size, scope and urgency, while remaining mindful of the long-term consequences of bending the rules "just this once" and the pitfalls of operating in a perpetual state of emergency.

In essence, I’m taking a nuanced view of the maxim "Kind, True, Necessary". I believe every issue not omitted from the finished essay is at least relevant to talk about, every factual claim I make is to my knowledge and best efforts true, but I am not being as kind as I could possibly be. I could be kinder by writing in the abstract, but in practice that often ends up obscuring the point to such an extent that people unaware of the object level example fail to cross the inferential gap. It has often been the case in the past where I have read essays about issues within the community, assumed they were relatively trivial, then when privately informed of the details being shocked at how serious they were.

Politeness, when taken to extremes, can also have serious repercussions. If you are a meetup organizer for the kink community and you avoid telling new members there are known predators at most events, and instead cryptically suggest to "watch where you step" you are, intentionally or otherwise, prioritizing maintaining a civil atmosphere over maintaining civilization itself. Euphemizing a message to the point where those involved aren’t even aware they are being referred to runs a very high risk of missing its intended audience.

As such, this essay prioritises clarity over civility. It does not shout, nor does it speak in the gentle West Coast whisper many of you are accustomed to. Sometimes it is necessary to raise your voice slightly in order to be heard.

Introduction

It has been nearly a decade since the Craft and the Community was published. Eliezer outlined a plan, hoping that someone would take the reins while he was working on AI alignment. We were told to go forth and create the art yet art creation has been overlooked, like a homeless man we try to avoid eye contact with.

Avoiding eye contact is an understandable and reasonable response for most people, given how little they can do about his situation. However it’s a little harder to justify that here, considering we still have the words "Soup Kitchen" up there in big bold letters.

Every once in awhile some wide-eyed newcomer asks why we aren’t more successful. Responses vary from minor nitpicking to claiming the rationality community is basically a bunch of people who enjoyed Yudkowsky’s blog. To me it is equal parts surreal and horrifying that people who had the reasoning ability to absorb the Sequences, including the repeated reminders that rationality is systemized winning got together with other readers and concluded that the real purpose of rationality was to have really fun conversations at dinner parties. The calm, unmoved responses make it feel like it was all some elaborate prank; that anyone who actually took the Sequences literally was either too autistic or naive to realise that they weren’t in on the joke. An implicit "Oh you sweet summer child, words don’t actually have meanings!"

This wasn’t always the consensus. Over the years there have been several dissenting voices trying to lead us in a better direction. Most of them eventually moved on when their schedules filled up or they got tired of banging their head against a wall.

One such person was Patri Friedman, known here as patrissimo. He wrote an essay on our lack of instrumental rationality and how to fix it shortly before departing. Since leaving LessWrong, his googleable accomplishments have been to get enough traction for Seasteading to sign a deal for a floating autonomous zone in French Polynesia, doing more for libertarianism than any other organization in the past few decades.

This is not a 1:1 causal relationship, but there does seem to be a correlation. To build off Patri’s analogy, there is quite the difference in outcomes between the people who stayed on the couch watching marathons, in the hopes that it would benefit their running technique when they finally got started, and those who put on whatever shoes they had to hand, got up and left the house.

Post-Mortem - What went wrong?

In retrospect, it seems somewhat surprising that a community so full of potential in both talent and values has achieved so little towards their goals when looked at as a group. There have been exceptional individuals, each with their own secret sauce they are unable to articulate the recipe for, but the median person seems to be roughly as successful as they would have been had they not discovered the rationality community. Success is not entirely, and probably not even mostly, genetic. Or in other words, information and cultural memes matter. Given this is the case, the question is why hasn’t this community managed to beat the control group?

This has been an unresolved question of mine for a few years now, and in the last several months, developed into an intense fascination.

I feel I’m starting to develop a coherent model. Like all things involving people, very little is explained by a single cause. Individual factors cluster into general areas with substantial overlaps between them. As such, looking at parts in isolation is like trying to recognise a person sitting in front of you by looking at them through a high-powered telescope. Understanding the causal mechanisms requires examination in an appropriate level of detail, being aware of individual examples and the wider context they exist in.

The following sections are an attempt to categorize them. Cleanly separating them is hard, given how interrelated they are. Yet, as with conjoined twins, you’ve got to make the incision somewhere.

The issues are separated under the broad headings of Demographics, Environment and Culture. Most issues have a cause stemming from another area and have second order effects in yet more areas still. Mapping all of these out fully would lengthen this essay to hundreds of pages, so only the most relevant connections are made.

Problems and causal factors

Demographics - Background selection effects

For various reasons, the Sequences disproportionately attracted the personality types who liked reading, hypothesising and debating. One of the defining characteristics of that personality type is a preference for extensive contemplation before action. Put enough of those people in the same place and social founder effects will exaggerate that to the point where action is rarely taken at all. From The War Of Art:

Often couples or close friends, even entire families, will enter into tacit compacts whereby each individual pledges (unconsciously) to remain mired in the same slough in which she and all her cronies have become so comfortable. The highest treason a crab can commit is to make a leap for the rim of the bucket.

Disconcerting, if true.

This is far from the only trait we have an overabundance of. Other surveys of the community suggest we have high percentages of depression, anxiety, autism and ADHD. Anecdotal evidence suggests we have a high proportion of socially maladjusted people who are some combination of heavily introverted, awkward, hyper-individualistic, oblivious, overly trusting, previously ostracised and confrontation avoidant. In an achievement sense we have a staggering percentage of people who have the intelligence to enter the higher echelons of society, but instead fell through the gaps due to burnout, untreated ADHD, major depression, defiance of authority figures, and other related causes. In a broad demographic sense, we also draw disproportionately from Blue Tribe and upper middle class backgrounds.

Even when a trait is not possessed by a majority, a tipping point mechanism can cause traits possessed in overabundance by a small minority to have wider cultural effects. It has been suggested that tipping points for opinions can happen when they are held by as little as 10% of a population.. It’s far from unreasonable to worry that a community where traits such as depression have been formally diagnosed at over twice the rate of the general population might create effects downstream.

The effects of these traits can impact our ability to achieve objectives in many cause areas. To unpack what I mean by that, here is a useful diagram borrowed from one of Raemon’s Project Hufflepuff posts:

Achieving objectives is typically thought of belonging mostly in the blue circle, but in reality, all focus areas have objectives. They may not be rooted in the standard concept of "achievement", but a sense of preferring certain outcomes/values over others.

We live in a universe where values are fragile. Where in the vast space of possible outcomes, only an infinitesimal fraction are good, and an even smaller fraction are great. Having a measurable impact is hard. Finding and preserving truth is hard. Creating flourishing communities is hard. Good outcomes do not happen by accident any more often than whirlwinds assemble Boeing 747s when passing through scrapyards.

Even when ideal, low-entropy states are achieved, constant work is required to avoid regressing to the mean. Thinking that the Rationalist community is immune to entropic forces is like thinking a refrigerator with the word cold on it will work without being plugged in.

Here are some of the problems, sorted by category, listing potential causes and secondary consequences.

Problems caused in the Truthseeking/epistemic circle:

Deep theoretical models, particularly psychological and sociological ones, don’t end up modelling reality very accurately

People like Gleb Tsipursky leeching off our epistemically rigorous reputation and organizations linked to us, in order to gain status in the wider world

Problems caused in the Impact/instrumental circle:

Inability to recruit underrepresented demographics

Projects that aren’t run as businesses struggle

Distrust of outsiders reducing both intake and spread of information

Lack of focus on instrumental rationality

Problems caused in the Human/community circle:

Romantic dissatisfaction of straight men

Difficulty forming deeper friendships

Difficulties executing short term plans

Almost complete inability to coordinate on long time horizons

Lacking a sense that more is possible

People feel the need to sell themselves (signalling smartness/interestingness/value)

I don’t expect everyone will agree with all of these bullet points. This list is extensive, not comprehensive. Most issues vary significantly in severity and occurrence depending on what part of the community you reside in. At worst, this is substantial food for thought.

This isn’t the part of the essay where I drill down into specific solutions, but since these problems are particularly salient at this point, it would be prudent to spare a few words for some general ones.

There are, to my knowledge, only three routes to solving these demographic issues on a wider basis:

If the tech industry is anything to go by, this is almost certain to fail. Even if it did succeed, there is a good chance the community would cease to be a place where most of us would want to stay.

This might be a possibility for some, and would require a hell of a lot of work to rebuild our intellectual foundations from scratch, but still technically doable. However, unless you have well-justified reasons for believing that you won’t just end up with the original demographic balance you started with, you’d be better off spending your time doing something else.

This is far from a guaranteed success. There have been quite a few people who tried and failed at this, for various reasons. Yet, at least compared to the other two options, it appears by far the most promising. There have been recent efforts in this general direction, from Project Hufflepuff to LessWrong 2.0. Perhaps there is enough momentum to capitalize on it?

Shifting the culture is not as simple as raising awareness. For changes to last longer than a news cycle, it will require consistent deliberate effort. It will require a conscious choice to pay attention to negative feedback and boring details, things that are far less pleasurably stimulating than whatever highbrow clickbait Venkatesh Rao will be posting in the meantime.

Alex jones is right, There is a war on for your mind.

To transition back to the structure of the post, demographic factors are not the only area where Molochean forces conspire to destroy everything we hold dear.

Environment - Picking the wrong location

People are, to some degree, products of their environment. This is true in both a cultural sense, in that people who live in Mexico are overwhelmingly more likely to be Catholic than people in Iran, and an economic sense, in that an Ethiopian is far more likely to lack the basic necessities than an Australian. The question is not if, but to what percentage environment is responsible for outcomes.

If we are to believe the account of Zvi Mowshowitz, centering the community in Berkeley is quite possibly the worst strategic mistake we have ever made. A quote:

No one could have predicted this. No one had any idea, as it was happening, that the choice of Berkeley might have been a mistake and not only because of the stratospheric rents. Many of our best and brightest leave, hollowing out and devastating their local communities, to move to Berkeley, to join what they think of as The Rationalist Community. They feel comfortable ripping apart those other communities because they think the point of those communities was to feed their best people to the ‘real’ community in Berkeley; when not being careful they use the term ‘rationalist community’ interchangeably with ‘rationalists living in Berkeley’. Once there, they have an increasingly good time and develop new ways to have an increasingly good time, forming a real community. But that ‘rationalist community’ is ‘increasingly ill-named.’ Its central cultural theme is not rationality, or becoming stronger, or saving the world; it is, Sarah reports, an unconditional tolerance for weirdos, a paradise for Bohemians, a place built on warm connections of mutual support for those who don’t fit into broader society.

This is not good news, for any of us.

For those on the inside, it means what you thought was a hard but ultimately worthwhile decision to leave your local community and move to Berkeley has, in light of new evidence, become a very large sunk cost that you won’t want to re-evaluate.

For those of us on the outside, we are now dealing with the fact that our local communities were hollowed for nothing. That the mission, the instrumental craft could have been years further along by now had Berkeley not redirected people’s talents towards other aims.

I won’t deny there is important work being done in Berkeley, and I’d even go as far to say there are some organizations such as MIRI that belong there. My claim, similar to Zvi’s, is that most individuals and rationalist-aligned organizations do not benefit from that location choice.

The reasons for this are not immediately apparent. From the outside, people full of energy and enthusiasm make the pilgrimage to Berkeley, go quiet on social media, and when you finally hear from them six months later they don’t seem like the person you once knew. Something is happening to them, although it isn’t particularly clear what.

I don’t claim to have found an exact sequence of events responsible for this. Doing so would require me to enter the belly of the beast, presenting the risk I may not come back with my findings. Instead, I’ve been maintaining a heightened awareness for any discussion of the topic. Passing comments embedded in the discourse were singled out for analysis, and reconciled with other data in an attempt to isolate common factors.

The broad, overarching effects can be categorized as cultural and economic.

(note: I occasionally use Berkeley as a catch-all term that includes SF and the wider Bay Area; this is to avoid pedantic clarification that interferes with the sentence structure)

The background cultural environment

Berkeley, as an entity, contains many elements that undermine our values. Elements which corrode our community bonds, our epistemic processes and our instrumental capabilities.

To start with, Berkeley is, if forum polls and protests against Milo Yiannopoulos are anything to go by, possibly the most politically correct city in America. Basing a community that values free speech and open minded discussion in a place famous for social justice witch hunts is a really bad idea. Even if that community managed to insulate itself from the outside environment (which it didn’t) it would still need the air conditioner to work much harder than otherwise necessary to maintain a cool, level-headed atmosphere within its walls.

In addition to negative cultural traits being introduced from the background, the population of Berkeley and the wider Bay Area have similar demographic and cultural traits to the rationalist community. Putting those people together creates further feedback loops, on top of the original ones.

If we had founder effects before, now we have founder effects squared.

Negative traits that were present in a minority of our demographic can become so prevalent that they can achieve cultural fixation. Social maladjustment is relative, and mostly depends on the norms of the wider population. This means if a negative trait becomes normal, it can become accepted as the proper way to behave. Those without the negative trait are seen as abnormal, and those who oppose the negative trait become pariahs.

If you want a general example of this, think about how the wider world treats honesty.

Now what happens if that trait is, let's say, flakiness? What sort of effects might this have on the cultural valuation of reliability?

A quote from Zvi’s blogpost, On Dragon Army

I also strongly endorse that the default level of reliability needs to be much, much higher than the standard default level of reliability, especially in The Bay. Things there are really bad. When I make a plan with a friend in The Bay, I never assume the plan will actually happen. There is actual no one there I feel I can count on to be on time and not flake. I would come to visit more often if plans could actually be made. Instead, suggestions can be made, and half the time things go more or less the way you planned them. This is a terrible, very bad, no good equilibrium. Are there people I want to see badly enough to put up with a 50% reliability rate? Yes, but there are not many, and I get much less than half the utility out of those friendships than I would otherwise get. When I reach what would otherwise be an agreement with someone in The Bay, I have learned that this is not an agreement, but rather a statement of momentary intent. The other person feels good about the intention of doing the thing, and if the emotions and vibe surrounding things continue to be supportive, and it is still in their interest to follow through, they might actually follow through. What they will absolutely not do is treat their word as their bond and follow through even if they made what turns out to be a bad deal or it seems weird or they could gain status by throwing you under the bus. People do not cooperate in this way. That is not a thing. When you notice it is not a thing, and that people will actively lower your status for treating it as a thing rather than rewarding you, it is almost impossible to keep treating this as a thing.

This isn’t quite the four horsemen of the apocalypse, but it still seems more reminiscent of an example referenced in Meditations on Moloch, where everyone shocks themselves eight hours per day so everyone else doesn’t kill them, than a desired feature of a thriving community.

These background effects not only magnify the original problems caused by existing demographic tendencies, but actively put up barriers to addressing them. When a negative attribute present in some individuals becomes woven into the cultural fabric, it becomes much more difficult to unravel. Even if it makes the community worse off on the whole, individuals can benefit in ways analogous to special interest groups. People with the trait that was previously frowned upon now get accommodations around it, ranging from a free pass to continue the behaviour, to resources being spent in order to limit its repercussions. People who can leverage the new incentive structure for their own benefit find their way into the community. These special interests like the new status quo, and will often resist any efforts to take away those advantages. After all, it is in their interest to do so.

Squared founder effects are present in other areas too, and cultural blindspots often mean people aren’t even aware of their repercussions. For example:

Social turnover has increased to the point where it has major effects on incentives

This section requires some introduction, given the heading is semantically empty without some background familiarity. To maximise understanding, I’m taking it right back to fundamentals, and working up from there:

Turnover, in a general sense, is the rate that something is replaced by something else.

Communities, especially culturally individualistic ones, generally have a neutral attitude to turnover. People coming and going is seen as the inherent state of things. Values naturally shift as existing members age or drift out, and fresh recruits have new ideas and priorities. Resisting cultural change is seen as futile at best, and stodgy conservatism at worst. Trying to keep people within a community is the sort of thing cults do.

The business world, however, has a much greater awareness of turnover’s direct costs and wider consequences. Well-functioning organisations develop strategies designed to reduce both its rate and impact. They realise turnover can greatly inhibit an organisation’s ability to function.

The causes of community turnover, and why some places and time periods have more of it than others, are perhaps best left to another essay. For now, here are some of turnover’s effects in the business world:

Loss of insider knowledge

Any information, be it strategies, heuristics, existing problems or operating procedures that don’t get written down are wiped from the collective memory of the organisation when a key employee leaves. This knowledge must be independently rediscovered each time this happens, incurring large opportunity costs for the organization.

Ramp up time for new recruits

It takes a while for new people to both absorb the domain specific information needed to make productive contributions, and become accustomed to the cultural norms of the organisation. This reduces average productive output as those new hires are working at a reduced capacity until they get up to speed.

Reduced coordination between individuals

The longer you know someone, the more detailed your mental model of them becomes. As you understand their idiosyncrasies and motives they become easier to communicate with. You are more likely to draw the right semantic conclusions from their words; the gap between what they mean and what you think they mean decreases. As you observe them cooperate with you on tasks, you can get a sense of their abilities and their trustworthiness. This is a mutual process that builds social capital, and that capital generates returns in the form of higher group productivity.

This process takes time, partially because it relies on deeper social instincts, but also because it requires the gathering of illegible information. Creating accurate information that could be transmitted to new employees is completely unfeasible. You can’t articulate how to adapt to someone’s idiosyncrasies for someone who isn’t you, and even if you could, most people couldn’t learn the same by reading about it. You can’t put "The CMO gives fake deadlines to the engineering team to make them work faster" in the induction handbook. As such, when an employee leaves, any social capital they have built is wiped from the balance sheet.

These effects also apply to communities in similar ways, with many similar consequences. In addition, there is a particularly damaging one that applies to all human social structures:

Significant turnover incentivises defection

If you are playing a million rounds of prisoner’s dilemma against an agent running the tit for tat strategy, it would be irrational to defect against them. If however, your game partner changes every round, you are incentivised to defect at every opportunity.

This is a pretty black and white scenario; most situations in the real world aren’t so binary.

Instead, this can be thought of as the extreme ends of a continuous spectrum:

On the right, where you are playing a million games, you have a strong incentive to build up a reputation for prosocial behaviour. On the left, where you are only playing a single game in isolation, timelines are so short that reputation capital has a 100% discount rate. Defecting in the present is rational if your future reputation is literally worthless.

As turnover increases, the mean amount of time an individual stays within a group decreases. The number of interactions (games) you can expect to have with each person drops. This moves the incentive structure leftward and brings along many of its consequences.

You could also add to the graph "maximum civilizational complexity at a given level of technology". The longer your timeline, the more social, institutional and financial investment you can make for the future. If you expect your great grandchildren to live on a plot of land, you can spend a year digging foundations for a castle. If you only expect to be there a week, you’d be better off booking an Airbnb.

This can go a long way towards explaining why many people hark back to the 1950s as a golden era - it’s the last time in living cultural memory we had low turnover. Technology has partially mitigated its effects, but is yet to fully substitute for the long term coordination abilities we had back then.

Maybe this is what Moldbug meant by "Cthulhu always swims left"?

Probably not, but it’s kinda fun to think about. If you’d prefer something a bit more plausible, consider how the turnover hypothesis can explain quite a wide variety of phenomena:

False economies - Decreasing quality of consumer goods

As the value of reputation decreases, the incentives to prioritize product features that can’t be listed on the packaging weaken. Quality is sacrificed for sales gimmicks and lower sticker prices. Businesses produce goods that are just good enough to sell, and pass through the legal warranty period, if applicable. Brands that had a longstanding reputation for quality saw less value being attributed to that and responded rationally by cannibalizing excess brand reputation in order to become more competitive.

Result: Businesses have to spend more on manipulative advertising to acquire new customers as they can no longer rely on quality design and engineering to keep old ones coming back. Rational customers have to constantly compare individual products rather than assume a brand’s entire product line is of good quality. Products have a lower ticket price but higher yearly cost of ownership due to requiring frequent replacement. The only group better off is landfill owners.

Human capital coordination problems - Massive college graduate underemployment.

Universities don’t teach you the skills needed in the business world. What’s forgotten is that they never did, it’s only just recently that there have been consequences for that.

New employees require training before they become productive, and this requires expenditure in both wages during training and opportunity costs of other employees needing to teach them.

Back in the good ol’ days, it didn’t matter if students graduated with no relevant skills. Companies didn’t expect it, they didn’t need them to. If a new employee was going to be there for the long haul, it didn’t matter if it took them a while to become productive. Net losses were totally fine for a few years when an employee would be contributing to the bottom line for decades.

It’s only recently, where business models have become less reliable, and skills become obsolete every five years, that employers demand recruits who can hit the ground running. On short time horizons, you need people who can solve your current problems and you need them to do it now. Even if you have giant cash reserves just sitting there, using it to train new recruits in presently-needed skills is a waste of money if you can’t anticipate your future demands for them.

Result: businesses which can’t plan for the future, a qualifications arms race, tulip subsidies, the quarter life crisis epidemic, deadweight losses from an underutilized workforce, locusts, darkness, death of firstborn sons.

Weakened social bonds - Most people have very few close friends

As people enter adulthood in modern life, they find it very difficult to make new friends.

It becomes hard enough that intelligent adults often seek expert advice on how to go about doing something that was so natural to them in childhood.

Have they somehow lost their friend making talents along the way?

No, the thing they lost was the conditions allowing friendships to form.

Up until graduation, you had been in a shared environment where you naturally interacted with the same group of people on a regular basis. There were large amounts of free time for you to talk to people, and you were in an environment where your peers were, to some extent, on the same team, and you shared most of the day to day joys and frustrations of that social environment. This convenient proximity, shared context and alignment of interests was a fertile breeding ground for friendship.

As you enter adulthood in today’s world, you will find that the tables are turned. Making friends used to be easy. Now it requires significant effort and planning just to keep the ones you have.

To start with, your 3+ year shared social environment where everyone is basically in the same boat is now gone. School has been replaced by the office, an environment where friendship-making is much more treacherous. There are hierarchies, co-workers look out for their own self-interest, staff transfer to different companies and departments regularly. The environment where you spend most of your waking hours actively discourages sincere friendships from forming.

Assuming you didn’t take a hosepipe to the web of strong connections you spent twenty years making in order to take a promising job offer in another state like cosmopolitan culture told you to, you still need to maintain your existing friendships. If you want to keep those bonds strong, you need to put it on your to do list. Another responsibility of adult life, that needs attending to when you get home after a long day at work and you’d really prefer to sit in front of a screen and vegetate.

Even if you have the spare willpower, and got the message from waitbutwhy while you were still young enough to do something about it, you are still up against strong cultural forces determined to rip your friendships apart.

A friend gets offered a job in another state? It doesn’t seem like a big deal at the time. It’s not like you are cutting off contact. But as time goes on, and you see each other less and less, your friendship enters LDR mode and System 1 enthusiasms wither in a gradual war of attrition. He probably won’t figure out what he’s lost until it’s too late.

On the other side of the cultural war? Too bad, even if you don’t hate them, they now lowkey hate you and everything you stand for.

Gets married? Even if they don’t move away, the cultural default is to prioritize the partner over maintaining a social life. Your friendship slides down the list of priorities until it ceases to be a priority at all.

Has a baby? With work and other life obligations, not to mention the child-hostile-by-default nature of most social gatherings, good luck scheduling a suitable time to see them.

Just find yourself drifting apart over time? Interests and values naturally diverge at a rapid rate compared to the pre-internet era where people shared a large informational context. Good luck getting back on the same wavelength.

You want to take conscious steps to preserve friendships as a large source of happiness in your life? If they don’t think you are weird or desperate for wanting to do such a thing, you’ll still be putting in a larger and larger share of the organizational effort as time goes on, leaving you wondering how much they really care.

Suddenly you’re 35 and you have no idea how you became so isolated.

If you are reading this site, you are lucky. Not just because you have access to some of the best insights on the planet, but because you have been exposed to a shared context strong enough to form deeper friendships out of*. Most interests don’t have enough of the right ingredients to form subcultures. Despite the popularity of Herman Miller office chairs, there aren’t many houseshares formed around a love of the Aeron. For an interest to form a subculture, it needs to be broad and distinct enough to stand out from universal values.

Many people take for granted how special rationalism is in this regard. The usual outcome when you divide people down to atoms is not individuals using their new-found mobility to sort into groups most suited to their idiosyncrasies, but a fragmented society of individuals, unable to really sync up with anyone.

Result: Vast swaths of people living lives of quiet desperation and a Beatles song unsure of their origins.

*I’m not against the sentiment that "maybe the real rationalism is the friends we made along the way". In fact, I’d like to preserve it. But the only way to preserve rationalism’s ability to do this in the long term is by keeping the mission, preventing our values from being diluted until they are no longer distinct from the default cosmopolitan culture. If you lose the mission, it isn’t long before a lack of differentiation means you lose the community as well.

Customer service - Loss of personal touch

Japanese society is, by modern western standards, very low turnover. It has many elements that clash with what could be called "liberal enlightenment values". However, there are elements caused by low turnover incentive structures that produce undeniably good outcomes.

Here’s an excerpt from the article Doing Business in Japan which recounts the writer’s experiences of customer service there:

Doing business with Japanese companies frequently resembles It’s A Wonderful Life. “Customer relationships” are not an empty phrase — many business relationships where one is approximately equivalent to a row in the database in the United States are, instead, expected to be relationships between two actual people.

This is occasionally exasperating, as a software person who doesn’t want to have to take someone drinking to sell a single SaaS account, but it is occasionally quite charming. Moving to Japan, particularly small-town Japan, was like visiting an old America that I had heard stories about but had never gotten the opportunity to experience.

For example, when I first came to Japan, I had no computer. I also had no money, because the plane ticket and setting up my household ate all of my savings. In America, this isn’t a barrier to getting a computer, because Dell will do a quick FICO score on you and then happily extend you $2,000 of trade credit.

Dell Japan, on the other hand, set me up with two phone calls with actual human underwriters at two Japanese financial institutions. Both had me fill out rather extensive forms (100+ questions — seriously). The first said “In view of your length of tenure at your employer and length of residence at your apartment, we don’t feel that your situation is stable enough to extend you credit.” The second said “Look, umm, officially, I am supposed to just tell you that we decline your business and wish you luck. Unofficially, the bank doesn’t extend foreigners credit, as a matter of policy. You’ll find that is quite common in Japan. I know, it is lamentable, but I figure that you’d be able to save yourself some time if you knew.”

So I gave up for a while, but mentioned to a coworker later that week that I really wanted a computer to be able to Skype home. He said “Come with me” and we left, in the middle of the work day, to visit a bank. It is a smaller regional bank in Gifu. I’ll elide naming it to avoid the following story being personally identifiable, but suffice it to say it is a very conservative institution.

My coworker got a credit card application and asked me to fill it in. I did so, but told him “Look, two Tokyo banks, which are presumably about as cosmopolitan as Japanese financial institutions get, just shot me down. One of them explicitly did so because I’m a foreigner. The chance of this middle-of-nowhere bank accepting a credit application is zero.”

“Don’t worry, I know the manager. Hey, Taro!”

Taro and my coworker had gone to school together.

“Patrick here just started working with us. He wants to buy a computer to call his parents, diligent son that he is, and needs a credit card to do it. Here’s his application. Make sure it doesn’t get lost in the shuffle, OK?”

Some weeks passed, and I assumed that I had been denied. Then there was a knock on my door early one Saturday morning.

It was bank manager Taro and an older gentleman who introduced himself as the Vice President for Risk Management of the bank. He promptly took over the conversation.

“You have to understand that we’re not one of those banks. We’re not some magical pot of money. Every yen we have is a farmer depositing against a bad harvest or a retiree’s pension, carefully husbanded over a lifetime. That is a sacred trust. We cannot lose their money. The bank has to be appropriately careful about who we lend that money to. Taro here tells me your trustworthy, so that is good. Even trustworthy young men sometimes make poor decisions. I need to know you won’t, so before I give this credit card, I have three questions for you.”

“Will you ever use this credit card to gamble?”

“No, sir.”

“Good. Will you ever use this credit card to buy alcohol?”

“No, sir.”

“Good. Will you ever give this credit card to a woman who is not your wife?”

“No, sir.”

“Good. Think darn hard before giving it to your wife, too. OK, you pass muster. Sign here.”

That was the first of a dozen stories which you wouldn’t believe actually happened about that bank. Taro correctly intuited when I started dating a young lady, and when we broke up, solely based on on my spending habits. He considered that part and parcel with looking out for my financial interests.

Taro stopped me from doing a wire transfer back to Bank of America to pay my student loans during the Lehman shock because Wachovia had gone into FDIC receivership that morning. I told Taro that I didn’t have an account at Wachovia. Taro said that he was aware of that, but that I used Lloyds’ remittance service to send wires, and Lloyds’ intermediary bank in the US was Wachovia, which might or might not be safe to have money in at the moment. I asked Taro how in God’s name does a banker in Ogaki, Japan happen to know what intermediary banks Lloyds uses in North America off the top of his head, and Taro said, and I quote, “There exists a customer of the bank who habitually makes USD wire transfers using Lloyds and, accordingly, it is my business to know this.”

Taro called me on March 12th, the day after the Touhoku earthquake, to say that he was concerned about my balance in the circumstances (I had cleared out my account to pay a tax assessment minutes before the quake) and, if I needed it, to come down to the bank and, quote, we’ll take care of you and worry about the numbers some other time, endquote.

Taro eventually retired from his position, and as part of making his rounds, gave me a warm introduction to the new bank manager. He made it a point to invite me out for coffee, so that he’d be able to put a face to Taro’s copious handwritten notes about my character. Some years after that, a new manager transferred in. I popped by with a congratulations-on-the-new-job gift, mildly surprising the staff, but it felt appropriate.

When I moved to Tokyo, I went to the regional bank’s sole Tokyo office, which exists to serve their large megacorp customers. They were quite shocked that I had an account with the bank (“Mister! Citibank is down the street! If you use our ATMs you’ll get charged extra!”), and even more shocked when I told them that I run a multinational software company through it. “Wouldn’t you get better services with Citibank or Mitsubishi?” The thought of switching never crossed my mind. Indeed, I can’t imagine anything that would convince me to switch. They don’t make numbers big enough to compensate for how much I trust my bank.

Was I a particularly large account to the bank? Nope. It’s the same passbook savings account a 17 year old gets to deposit their first wages into. For 8+ of my ten years in Japan, my balance there was below $2,000.

The bank is one anecdote, but I could tell you about the hair stylist who drops me a handwritten postcard after every appointment, the restaurant that I went to weekly that tried to cater my wedding for free, the glasses shop which invited me to come back for a (free) frame re-bending and cup of coffee any time I was in the neighborhood, etc etc.

Japanese customers, in both B2C and B2B relationships, expect a level of personalized, attentive service which is qualitatively different than that in the United States. Anomalously good sales reps in the US are frequently operating at table stakes or below in Japan.

On the plus side, after you’ve actually won the business and demonstrated capability to serve customers to these standards, Japanese customers are very loyal. This is true both qualitatively and quantitatively. I’m aware of a Japanese SaaS app which, despite being sold at low price points on a low-touch month-to-month model (all predictive of relatively high churn rates) has a churn rate which would be considered exemplary for an enterprise SaaS app sold with high-touch sales on an annual contract.

Result: The subtext between us and our bank managers is far less homoerotic.

Conclusion and further examples

Turnover is a specific example of the concept Change (for the sake of change) Is Bad, consider this a public service reminder.

Now that turnover has been solidified in the abstract, I’ll introduce a few examples of where this has interacted with our community:

From one of Zvi’s comments:

The Berkeley/SF community has engaged in a systematic recruitment war to convince as many people as possible to leave their communities and move. They have done this claiming not only that it would be more fun but that it was the right thing to do, they have dangled promises and missions in front of them, then they have used the people who already moved to recruit their friends, and so on. For years I have watched my best friends, one by one, leave and then be the reason my other friends are considering leaving, as the rest of us struggled to hold together our lives and rebuild, worried that anything good we did create would just be ripped apart again. I have had pressure put upon me to move, as well, pressure that has made my life substantially worse.

A reply to it along the same lines:

I have lost motivation to put any effort into preserving the local community – my friends have moved away and left me behind – new members are about a decade younger than myself, and I have no desire to be a ‘den mother’ to nubes who will just move to Berkley if they actually develop agency… I worry that I have wasted the last decade of my life putting emotional effort into relationships that I have been unable to keep and I would have been better off finding other communities that are not so prone to having its members disappear.

Aside from luring people to Berkeley under false premises being bad for individuals, this also has effects on the people who remain in their local communities. As I mentioned earlier, the more uncertain the future is, the less investment you can make for it. Whatever the goals of the Berkeley community are, they should not include forcing others to build theirs above a rapidly eroding cliff edge.

Excerpt from a comment on the original Project Hufflepuff post, noticing that people have figured out how to exploit conditions caused by (and further exacerbating) turnover:

There are, by my count, at least 3 such parasites in the Bay community; and specifically they position themselves as the broken stair step right at onboarding, making the community feel "impenetrable and unwelcoming". The way how this happens operationally, is when I admit to some level of operational surplus (language skills, software development, business building), from these specific persons I get immediately asks of "Would you like to do free translation for me?" / "Would you like to build $website-idea$ for me?" / "Would you like to donate to $my-cause$?". I also notice that they don't do it this overtly to long-term members.
Note, the problem here isn't the ask. We do asks in entrepreneur-topia all the time. The problem is the lack of dealcraft: the asks are asymmetrically favouring the asker, and only offer vague lipservice-waving-towards-nice-things as return.
Presence of these parasites, and lack of dealcraft by these people reached equilibrium at having 'a strong culture of "make sure your own needs are met", that specifically pushes back against broader societal norms that pressure people to conform, because people who have been valuepumped hard enough can not sustain themselves in the Bay.

Raemon, Notes from the Hufflepuff Unconference (Part 1) showing an example of the high discount rate people have on prior reputation:,

I've seen several group houses where, when people decide it no longer makes sense to live in the house, they... just kinda leave. Even if they've literally signed a lease. And everyone involved (the person leaving and those remain), instinctively act as if it's the remaining people's job to fill the leaver's spot, to make rent.

The last two examples are particularly striking. They not only show effects which could not exist in low turnover conditions, but a failure of any kind of system to deal with them.

This leads onto the next section.

Reduced ability to mitigate problems

The environment of Berkeley exacerbates the aversion to confrontation. This is partially through squared founder effects, but also due to the background cultural norms.

This makes it a hell of a lot harder to address negative externalities being produced if doing so might cause some bad vibes.

As a collective, y’all need to grow a pair. But any individual who gains the resolve in spite of prevailing norms faces an uphill battle convincing anyone to rock the boat.

Until this changes, problems that require this method are only going to keep piling up.

If you want to have rental agreements, and to benefit from the ability to make such agreements, then you need to enforce them when they are violated. Not doing so sends a signal that they don’t actually mean anything; that people will not have to pay for costs they impose on others.

This is basically the iterated prisoner’s dilemma scenario where you keep accepting "oops, I didn’t mean to press the defect button!" as a reason not to give the punishment you’ve pre-committed to making. The game theory incentives don’t cease to apply just because someone is an Ingroup Member™.

If that happened in my grouphouse, and the person was not suffering financial hardship and instead decided to "...just kinda leave", then they would be paying the full cost stipulated on their contract. If they refused to do so, they would be prosecuted through the courts and listed on a publicly visible wall of shame for a five year period.

Sadly, I do not have the mandate to take those actions against the people in the example.

There are other problems with non-confrontation, too. Some quotes from Sarah’s In Defense of Individualist Culture:

College-educated Western adults in the contemporary world mostly live in what I’d call individualist environments. The salient feature of an individualist environment is that nobody directly tries to make you do anything.
...
If you slack off at work, in a typical office-job environment, you don’t get berated. And you don’t have people watching you constantly to see if you’re working. You can get bad performance reviews, you can get fired, but the actual bad news will usually be presented politely. In the most autonomous workplaces, you can have a lot of control over when and how you work, and you’ll be judged by the results. If you have a character flaw, or a behavior that bothers people, your friends might point it out to you respectfully, but if you don’t want to change, they won’t nag, cajole, or bully you about it. They’ll just either learn to accept you, or avoid you.
…
There are downsides to these individualist cultures or environments. It’s easy to wind up jobless or friendless, and you don’t get a lot of help getting out of bad situations that you’re presumed to have brought upon yourself. If you have counterproductive habits, nobody will guide or train you into fixing them.

Even if individualist culture comes out on top overall as Sarah claims, the last line I quoted has brutal consequences for anyone who didn’t subconsciously absorb how to behave in a social setting.

Instead of granting permission for people to tell them harsh but constructive things about their behaviours, they must either tolerate them forever, or discretely ostracise them.

What once could have been mostly addressed with a few months of uncomfortable mentoring now becomes, if they can’t solve the problem independently, a near incurable social leprosy that confines them to the outskirts of any functional community they wish to be a part of.

Even when solving a problem doesn’t require violating social norms, all problems require a nonzero amount of time and energy to fix. The amount of things an individual can solve varies based on their free time, work obligations and spare cognitive resources.

Now what effects might the economic realities of Berkeley have on that?

Economics - Time, Money, Spoons and future plans

Not to put too fine a point on it, but basing a community that’s not focused on maximising gross income in the most expensive city in North America doesn’t strike me as particularly rational.

Aside from the obvious fact that living in Berkeley is really expensive and people would prefer it if things were not so expensive, it’s the second order effects that are of greater concern.

Effects on time

Consider this hypothetical scenario:

A talented software engineer from Ohio, who writes blog posts and data analyses as a hobby, catches the attention of the Berkeley community. He has read all of the Sequences and has a willingness to Shut up and Multiply. He takes the claims of Berkeley’s superiority seriously, and after a short period of consideration, bites the bullet and decides to move.

Due to his impressive talents and phone interview performance, he manages to line up a job at Facebook’s Headquarters in Menlo Park. He dutifully hands in his notice at his low stress job in Ohio. They’re sad to see him go but they understand his decision; they can’t compete with the six figure salaries offered on the west coast.

He packs up his car with his most valued possessions and drives cross country to the supposed land of milk and honey. There is a room in a Berkeley grouphouse waiting for him.

There is a temporary decrease in his online presence, given the upheaval of moving. But everything will eventually return to normal, probably.

After the dust has settled, and months pass with nary a blog update, he recalls why he came to Berkeley: he came to to play his part in making the world a better place. Yet somehow, he now spends his creative energies implementing software features designed to get users to spend as much time as possible on Facebook in order to increase ad revenue. He lives in Berkeley. Facebook HQ is a 34 mile and 90 minute commute. Fifteen whole hours a week are spent in traffic.

Of the 112 conscious hours in every week, very few are his own.

50 hours are spent in the office

15 hours driving

7 hours in transition time between trying to fall asleep and getting in the car the next morning

5 hours of work emails

10 hours doing food shopping, cleaning, laundry and general yak shaving

7 hours cooking and eating evening meals

That leaves 18 hours with which to do everything else. 18 hours to socialise with housemates, exercise, go to events and stay up to date with his RSS feed. No wonder his blog is neglected.

Effect on spoons/ability to do anything else

In addition to having so little spare time, those eighteen hours are hours of cognitively drained, borderline exhaustion. There is talk that Berkeley has lost the mission, but under those constraints I’d find it remarkable if anyone could remember the mission.

With so little spare resources, it’s not a question of resisting Moloch. It’s how many months before you stumble, fall and get incorporated into his flesh.

In these conditions, you are severely lacking Slack:

Slack permits planning for the long term. You can invest.

Slack enables doing the right thing. Stand by your friends. Reward the worthy. Punish the wicked. You can have a code.

Slack presents things as they are without concern for how things look or what others think. You can be honest.

Only with slack can one be a righteous dude.

If you and everyone else in the community is exhausted, you don’t have the time or energy to resist outside pressures. The community will move in whatever direction the social winds decide to take it, without regard for the eventual outcome. Even if people wanted to push the mission forward, without slack they do not have the spare resources to do so.

Advancing rationality requires righteous dudes.

Money constraints

If we take as a given that sporadic efforts to advance the craft aren’t enough, and that it is an important goal to pursue, then people should donate money to support people working on it full-time.

Unfortunately, supporting individuals located in Berkeley is rather expensive.

And those six figure salaries don’t go as far as you’d think.

(I’d give you hard numbers for this, but nobody responded to my request for data*.)

In addition, for-profit rationality projects based in Berkeley are under much greater pressures to produce something that people can charge for. Any project started on savings has a much shorter runway with which to produce results. Under these conditions, there is much greater pressure to produce something, and quickly.

This often leads to the production of a symbolic representation of the thing, rather than the thing itself

This could go some way to explaining why CFAR, prior to its AI pivot, never really managed to produce much applied rationality. Doing so would have required going back to the drawing board and completely overhauling the curriculum, figuring out how to teach writing instead of literary criticism. It would require throwing out a proven business model, laying off the staff with mostly meta-level skills (judging by the roster that’s almost all of them) and taking the massive reputation hit of admitting failure of that magnitude. It would have probably gone bankrupt before it managed to live up to its acronym.

I don’t have sufficient inside information to say with any certainty that this was a reason for the pivot, but if it is, you can hardly point fingers. They are no more worthy of blame for this than people living under the Siege of Leningrad were for eating their pet cats.

*Perhaps they had too little slack to respond to data requests?

Future plans/life goals

Living in grouphouses with your friends is fun, but not everyone wishes to do so in perpetuity. There may come a time when you develop other, more traditional goals.

What if you want to want to get married, buy a house and raise a family?

Assuming you are a straight male, you first have to find someone you want to get married to. This isn’t an easy task at the best of times, and the tech industry’s effect on the gender ratio hardly helps matters.

Even once you have found someone, the only way to own a house in Berkeley is to inherit one or sell your startup to Google.

I’m only half joking. According a quick glance of Zillow most three bed houses are priced around one million dollars. In addition to needing a $200k deposit, you’d need a combined income of that just to qualify for the mortgage.

Even at today’s historically anomalous interest rates, you’d be shelling out around $48,000 after tax every year just on the loan, without accounting for maintenance, insurance or municipal taxes.

If like many rationalists you want to homeschool your children, one of you needs to be making around $200k per year just to live at a normal middle class standard of living.

Even if you do plan to send your children into the Prussian institution, up until that age, unless you can afford for one of you to stay at home, you are paying around $22,800 yearly per child to put them in daycare.

Surely this insanity will stop when planning departments see reason and approve more housing? Sadly, no.

The housing crisis is politically unsolvable

Contrary to perceptions, high paid tech workers make up quite a small percentage of the population in the Bay Area.

How small? Surely it can’t be less than a third?

It’s around twelve percent.

The rest are some combination of welfare recipients in rent-controlled apartments and locals who bought their houses way before google became a verb in the dictionary. In addition, there are people who bought in when houses were only $750k and have debt obligations resting on the premise that their tent made from two by fours and vinyl cladding is worth that sum.

These voters have a hell of a lot to lose if the current red tape is repealed. No petition can change that fact.

The coalition of established interests can outvote and outspend any effort put forth by housing reformists. So long as each homeowner stands to lose six figure sums from their net worth if they let the petitions go through unopposed, there will be a permanent deadlock on the status quo.

The rationalists took on Berkeley, and Berkeley won.
Berkeley doesn’t work for us. We work for Berkeley.

The economic and cultural realities of Berkeley cannot be changed, those realities can only change you.

Culture - Not taking the Sequences seriously

A surprising amount of issues raised previously were warned about in the Sequences.

Yudkowsky had the wisdom to document these pitfalls and attempt countermeasures, but going back they read more like foreboding than problems we managed to avert. As a collective, it seems we went "Sure dad, I won’t take the cheese off the platform", and the minute he looked away we were already flailing limbs around the room, trying to get the mousetrap off our finger.

Numerous examples come to mind, examples of things even prominent community members didn’t seem to really absorb. Eliezer, someone who is dedicating their life to AI safety, warned about the danger of the AI meme sucking the life out of other causes in 2009. Way before CFAR sidelined applied rationality Way before EA started to shift focus towards Xrisk, before the term "Effective Altruism" was even proposed. If nothing else, just warning this might happen demonstrated a remarkable amount of foresight for 2009; like saying Bitcoin will someday be worth thousands of dollars.

Lest you think he got lucky, or that I’m generalising from too few examples, what about the warning that communities often die because they won’t enforce standards? Or that to actually advance the craft of rationality you have to give a shit about something besides intellectual masturbation? Or that you can’t just stay in the comfort of the meta level, and that to produce real results you need to create object level craft that is relevant in the near future? Or the timeless observation that those who can’t do, teach?

You probably get the point.

The accusation in the title might be a little hard to believe, given how prominently the Sequences are displayed on this website.

Surely LessWrong would be the place where people took them seriously?

Not really. The Sequences might be front and center, but most people read parts of them when they joined, and felt they had done their duty. I suppose it’s like expecting Evangelical culture to be dictated by the book put behind every church pew.

Ignoring literal interpretations of dusty old texts in favour of the subcultural zeitgeist is the default path of all groups. Perhaps it was a little naive to expect us to be different...

Recap

Okay, we’ve covered quite a lot of ground here. Many detours have been taken to provide enough context to answer "what went wrong?" that it’s hard to remember where we’ve been.

Here is a summary of the central concepts.

We lost the mission because:

It’s the kind of scenario when you try to work out why the handyman fell off your roof and died, and you notice that:
1. he wasn’t wearing a helmet.
2. He wasn’t tied on safely.
3. His ladder wasn’t tied down.
4. It was a windy day.
5. His harness was old and worn out.
6. He was on his phone while on the roof…
And you realise that any five of those things could have gone wrong and not caused much of a problem. But you put all six of those mistakes together and line the wind up in just the right way, everything comes tumbling down.

Except that we weren’t trying to do something routine, so we probably didn’t need five out of six. Two or three would have been enough for us to fall.

What can we do about this?

To be honest, I don’t know what to tell the people of Berkeley.

You’re fighting an uphill battle in terms of demographics. The overlap between the demographic-related problems of the rationalist community and the area’s software industry is large. Vast quantities of resources have been thrown towards the goal of making programming more accessible to different demographics, with little in the way of progress.

In terms of environment, the economic and cultural realities present in Berkeley cannot be changed. You cannot vote to solve the housing problem. You can’t insulate yourself from epistemic threats. You are outnumbered and outgunned by established interests who don’t have any sympathy for our cause. Living there also means that a large proportion of your energy has to be spent staying alive, leaving you with weakened ability to address any issues you encounter.

In terms of culture; shall I tell you to go read the Sequences again? Half of you didn’t even read them in the first place. I mean, maybe if everyone went away and did that then things might improve slightly, but the real value is in implementing them. Aside from AI related things, Eliezer failed to inspire people to create the art the first time around. He signposted many potential pitfalls. We still ended up falling in most of them. You didnt listen to Yudkowsky’s repeated pleas to think of rationalism as systematized winning rather than talking like Spock. You sure as hell aren’t going to listen to mine.

If it’s any consolation, Berkeley’s economic and social problems are present in most other rationalist hubs too, just to a slightly lesser extent. What’s true of Berkeley is mostly true of Seattle, Boston and London.

Furthermore, any attempt to address these problems over the internet is futile. If it was possible to fix things with a few blog posts, someone would have already managed it. It’s pretty much a running joke at this point to say "I’ve outlined some vague details on how to solve the problem, someone should really get around to solving this".

So I’m not going to.

Instead, I’ve been creating an alternative solution elsewhere. I’ve been creating, not "I’m going to create". Too many projects ride the early wave of publicity and fall apart before ever making it to shore*. Far too many initiatives are announced, hoping that someone out there will finally take the initiative.

I am personally taking initiative. I’ve been doing so for the entirety of 2017. This essay was not written as a eulogy, but a reconnaissance mission. Sun Tzu once said "Know your enemy and know yourself, you will not be imperiled in a hundred battles". Even if you have no interest in assisting my efforts, hopefully the information presented will be some assistance to yours.

If you personally intend to fix things in Berkeley, maybe I could give you some general advice. I could, but I don’t plan to. Aside from it adding two more cents to a pile big enough to put a kid through Harvard, if you need me to tell you what to do, you're not yet up to the task.

The rest of the essay is mainly focused on my project-specific solutions. If you’re curious about joining me, or are working on something similar and wish to steal my ideas, read on.

*The initial team has already moved to the alternate location.

The Craft and the Community - Resurrection

Intro

To have the best chance of success, you need to put as many factors on your side as possible. If you are attempting to climb a mountain, it would be unwise to fill your backpack with lead weights. Getting up there is hard enough. You don’t get any points for masochism.

To do better than Berkeley, we need to improve our Demographics. We need to be in a Location that allows us substantial slack with which to resist external incentives, and doesn’t constantly work to undermine our values. We need to create a strong Culture that upholds rationalist principles, that can stand strong in the face of entropic forces. A culture where implicit values don’t diverge from stated principles, where the ideology and the movement march in lockstep. A culture where incentive structures are intentionally designed to produce good outcomes, one that rewards beneficial actions and punishes harmful ones. A community where you don’t have to choose between doing the right thing and acting in your own self interest.

These are lofty aspirations. I’m not naive enough to think we will ever reach the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

The thing is, we don’t have to. Each step towards that ideal is an incremental improvement upon which further steps can be taken. Even if we never arrive at the summit of Everest, Base Camp is still five thousand metres above the waterline.

As in the previous section, my strategies are outlined under the same broad headings.

Demographics - Getting a broad range of talents

This project doesn’t have a HR department. Doing tickbox diversity is not our goal.

Often underrepresented demographics have good reasons to be absent. Recruiting more violent criminals to reach parity with the general population is not a worthwhile endeavour.

The goal is to recruit not just underrepresented demographics, but undervalued ones. The rationalist community overlooks many of the strengths and perspectives not present in its core demographic, which limits its potential when it encounters an obstacle that requires talents besides logical analysis or writing code.

Related to that, there is a strong focus on narrowing the gender gap. Balancing the ratio will bring valuable strengths* and perspectives as well as allowing the full set of human needs to be met within the community. In addittion to allowing more people to get their romantic needs fulfilled, it lessens the diversion of attention and resources away from collectively shared goals. If potential partners are scarce then individuals will spend a large amount of resources competing for them in whatever way possible. This scarcity mindset exacerbates status competitions that corrupt rationalist values and weaken community cohesion. Even if you were one of the chosen few who are getting your romantic needs met, you woud still have to live in an environment where such competitions take place.

So how would you go about doing this?

*No, really. There’s a reason why women earn more than men in their 20’s. Women as a group are more conscientious and have better coordination skills, which are more valuable in large organizations. These are also skills which our community seriously lack.

Focus on in-person recruitment

Assuming you pick a location that has a wide variety of non-tech employment sectors, it will have a more balanced demographic to recruit from than Berkeley or the internet.

In addition, introducing someone to the concepts of rationality is far easier when you have an existing offline connection. Plenty of people operate using the heuristic that "If someone on the internet claims to have a grand overarching philosophy that solves everything, they are a lunatic". Given the track record of these claims, this is a pretty reasonable one. You can have much better success proposing unconventional ideas by being face-to-face and appearing competent, sane and likeable. If they find you trustworthy, people are more likely to give you the benefit of the doubt, remaining open minded long enough to understand ideas they would have otherwise dismissed.

People you attract from the local area will also encounter less friction when joining your community - if they want to take part, they won’t need to buy a plane ticket. People who haven’t just moved cities can often refer other people from their existing social network, in addition to having high value contacts that would be otherwise inaccessible, given their typically busy schedules.

The people who go to in-person meetups also have a higher proportion of traits underrepresented in the more internet-based demographic. As a collective, people who attend events are more extroverted, more enthusiastic, less anxious, more action-focused. They also have a more even gender balance. Traits, as a community, we could do with more of.

You shouldn’t just restrict yourself to the people who attend your meetups. There are other environments where you are likely to bump into people interested in your community. These vary by location, and are often hard to find when you are explicitly looking for them. Instead, being cognizant as you go about your day-to-day activities of places that contain a high proportion of people compatible with your values.

Create better introductory materials

Needing to read the Sequences is a bottleneck preventing far too many people from being part of our community*. Having to work your way through over two thousand pages of cognitively demanding text to evaluate if rationality is worthwhile or not is a pretty poor sales pitch, so it is unsurprising that few people take up the offer. Initially enthusiastic people who would otherwise become valuable community members fail to see any returns on their initial efforts, so give up early. Any demographic who reads to acquire information, rather than just for entertainment, struggles to get early returns from rationality.

If a Rationality 101 can be created that’s under a hundred pages in length** - an introductory guide that distills only the most valuable concepts and can quickly demonstrate concrete personal benefits whenever its concepts are applied - the bottleneck will be removed.

Rationality really is a common interest of many causes. The failure is communication, not a lack of practical benefit. The Sequences are tailored to the demographic that sees themselves as logical and analytical, enjoys science fiction, and is at the very least undeterred by reddit style atheism. Writing for a more general audience will help.

*I’m not contradicting what I said earlier. The Sequences are valuable, and should be read by longstanding members at least twice. I’m merely taking issue with it being an initial, albeit poorly enforced, requirement. A community familiar with trivial inconveniences should have no problem seeing why I think this.

**This is not the same as trying to take the 2400 page AI to Zombies, that relies on advanced concepts familiar mostly to 3SD autodidacts, and trying to compact and simplify it into 10 cracked.com articles. All previous attempts to do things like this have struggled massively. A different approach would be something more like taking all the visible parts that rationalists use on a regular basis, and teaching just those things. Perhaps a barebones curriculum would be something like:

  1. Why it’s important to update on evidence and how to actually change your mind
  2. How to notice when you might be wrong
  3. Stated preferences vs revealed preferences/signalling/almost nobody is doing what they say they are doing including you
  4. How to describe your internal experiences productively (sys1 vs sys2, possibly others)
  5. How to notice your own fake excuses
  6. Useful mental models that have passed consensus (MBTI yes, Kegan levels no)
  7. Practical general advice that has been vetted by the community for accuracy

Discovering the reasons that cause people to leave

Most startups obsessively track customer retention. They track quantitative metrics like new users, average rating and click through rate. They also pay attention to user feedback. What made them use the app? What features would they like to see? Are there issues impacting the customer’s experience?

The benefits of this practice don’t cease to apply just because you’re building a community rather than a web app. The "customer experience" of a community is just as important, it just has a different name and a different set of priorities.

While there is no need to chase metrics as aggressively as a startup, you need to know what things have an impact on your retention rate. This applies on both the micro and macro scale. If someone leaves your project, you need to find out why. You also need to find out what causes people to leave the wider community, especially those who belong to underrepresented demographics.

As such, here are some examples I could find:

Both of the above points would require a shift in the culture to allow someone to confront them. Until then, people who are fully on board with the concept of rationalism, but are unwilling to tolerate those issues, will continue leaving.

Champion existing members displaying the traits you want to see more of

To make newcomers from rare demographics feel welcome, often all it takes is for them to see one person similar to them being valued in spite of their differences. It’s certainly the case for me.

I’ve always felt like a bit of an outsider in the rationalist community, despite being here for several years. If I attend a solstice, I’ll most likely be the only person in the room with a distinctive regional accent. Despite being superficially similar in appearance to most attendees, it’s unlikely I’ll end up in conversation with someone who shares my intuitions or background.

I’ve always found writing quite hard*. I struggle to write in the style that comes so naturally to many of you. I cannot think in lines of academic dispassion, only translate after the fact. This puts me at quite the disadvantage in any scenario where communication is implicitly expected to conform to that standard.

Despite liking rationalism, I find the cultural defaults of most rationalists quite alien.

A side effect of that is that this project has become a bit of a beacon for those types of people. Without revealing any specific details, the first 75% of the initial movers unknowingly shared a trait with an estimated occurrence in the community of less than 2%. Spooky.

Like attracts like; I’ve attracted a disproportionate percentage of people like me to this project by leading it. It seems possible that those effects could be replicated to some extent by encouraging people with other underrepresented traits to take on prominent roles in the project.**

*Believe it or not, it was my worst subject in school. And not because I was absolutely stellar at everything else, we’re talking bad as in 35th percentile of the population bad. Getting to where I am today required a lot of practice and purpose to motivate my efforts.

**Care needs to be taken not to create roles purely for the sake of inclusivity. We don’t want to end up the equivalent of a school nativity play with Mary, Joseph, baby Jesus, three crocodiles, two ostriches and a dancing banana.

Create a community those people would want to be a part of

It’s one thing to realise what those people offer us. It’s entirely another to question what we offer them.

If you scratch your head, or come up with answers like "community" or “interesting conversations” you are lacking a good value proposition. If that’s all you have to offer, why would they choose to join your particular community when there are hundreds of others offering the same thing?

To save this essay from getting even longer, I’m going to focus on two specific demographic groups: Feminine/people oriented women and Already successful people

Feminine/people oriented women

To establish background context, I’d suggest reading Gender Imbalances Are Mostly Not Due To Offensive Attitudes and then watching (sorry, no transcript available) this 2006 Google TechTalk On Girls, Boys, and IT Careers made prior to the Overton window shift.

It may occur to you that for a community with such a large gender gap, we have a remarkable number of people-oriented elements. It strikes me as plausible that in today’s atomized world, there are several strategies that could be implemented to become a significantly more competitive option for this demographic:

More emphasis on norms that promote community

Not undervaluing female coded values, interests and skillsets

Better onboarding and recruitment - Communicating our benefits

If you’ll forgive me for the crudeness, there is a danger this goal gets simplified to "say whatever things will get our dicks wet".

This is the wrong mindset, it’s probably not even the right one if that’s your terminal goal. If you want good outcomes in the long run, you need to focus on providing long term value, not generating short term interest by whatever means possible. If women who are incompatible with our values find their way into our community, they should be swiftly ejected, without regard for its effects on the yearly census data.

We don’t benefit from symbolic diversity, so it makes little sense to encourage it.

Already successful people

Successful people are almost always busy with something, and as such they place a high value on their time. They don’t suffer fools gladly, and have many competing opportunities not available to you or I. To get a feel for the dynamics at play here, read the sequence post Competent Elites assuming you haven’t already done so.

Attracting these people isn’t an easy task at the best of times, given everyone else is also competing for their attention. However, I have a few speculative guesses on how you can tip the scales in your favour:

That last point is important, especially for us. Building a community that supports success in any area requires it to be more than a community for philosophy nerds. If we want to preserve the cultural capability and value of achievement, we need to prevent brain drain effects by building a community where members who become successful don’t want to leave. An environment where people can grow without worrying they they’ll grow out of us. Somewhere so satisfying that newly available opportunities still can’t compete with the place you’ve come to call home.

Environment - Manchester works for us, we don’t work for Manchester

If you have any kind of bohemian streak, the knee-jerk response to the inadequacies of modern civilization is to run as far away from it as you possibly can.

Unfortunately, there isn’t really anywhere for you to run to. You can’t return to the jungle. Even if you find an area unclaimed by civilization, your pasty-ass complexion* will need more than a loincloth to survive the equatorial sun.

Nor are you better off going back to the land. Ask anyone who has tried to grow their own food; self-sufficiency is far more difficult than it appears. People who are accustomed to the efficiency of modern supply chains greatly underestimate how much time and money is needed to survive without the grocery store.

The only way around civilization is through it.

The path around the circumference is littered with numerous skulls, intentional communities that tried to deny economic realities ended up much the same as governments who dealt with their budget shortfalls by printing another zero on the currency.

Given this state of affairs, how do you make the most of the situation?

By recognising that you don’t need to live in teepees to be as content as the Comanche Indians. Just like you don’t need to believe in Jesus to help the poor, you often don’t need the superfluous trappings associated with an outcome in order to achieve it.

In a more actionable sense, you figure out the constraints and time horizons you are working with, and you find the environment most likely to offer your community the best outcomes for its goals.

For us, the constraints are mostly financial, the time horizon is decades, and the goals can be approximated by the phrase "human flourishing".

*Sorry Alison, acknowledging your extra melanin would interfere with the narrative flow.

Why Manchester?

Prior to settling here, I wrote a fifteen page google document laying out my research quite roughly but in substantial detail. I have no intentions of rewriting that anytime soon, but I will elaborate on the selection criteria mentioned in the previous section.

To deal with our financial constraints i.e. that most of us need to work in order to survive, we prioritized places that had:

A low cost of living

Advancing the craft of rationality requires slack, so picking a location where living costs are relatively low gives us more freedom to pursue things that won’t earn money or will not do so in the near future.

An underappreciated portion of the budget for Americans is the cost of reasonable quality healthcare. Even the cheapest locations in the US have monthly insurance premiums that are almost as much as rent, even after subsidies. Healthcare in the UK is free for EU citizens. Non-EU citizens pay ~£60/month for insurance on >6 month stays, £200/year on temporary work visas and zero if they reside in the UK permanently.

Something else that deserves consideration is the tax rate at various levels of income. We want to be viable for people at both ends of the income spectrum, which means prioritizing places with little taxation of low incomes and reasonable rates across the board. In the UK people earning less than £1000 ($1300) gross income are paying less than 5% tax and people earning $100k (£76k) a year only pay 32% overall.

I am yet to complete a precise breakdown of living costs between Manchester and other locations like London or Berkeley, but as a rough figure, my total expenses, that include every bit of non-business spending, come in at slightly under £500/month ($660) when amoratized.

Decent hourly wages, and good job opportunities in our chosen fields

If not everyone is working remotely, you need to take wages into account when comparing purchasing power. It doesn’t matter if living costs are $200 a month if the local jobs only pay $1 an hour. You also need to pick a country where members will be legally permitted to work. These considerations ruled out most locations outside Europe for us.

Given the type of jobs our existing members do, we have to be in a place where there are good local opportunities to do them. This necessitated being in a large urban area.

On a timeline of decades, other factors come into play:

Stability of institutions and rule of law - You can’t accurately predict the future, but you can familiarize yourself with base rates. The last revolution in the UK was in 1688. The last time Oxford university had to suspend teaching was during the St Scholastica Day riot in 1355. Order and stability are heavily embedded values in the British culture.

Visa uncertainty over Brexit - Most of the key members hold UK passports. The risk that would have been generated had we based the project somewhere on the continent would have outweighed any marginal gains from doing so.

Housing supply - even after a decade of reurbanization, there is still enough housing stock available in Manchester, furthermore, the local government is greenlighting a substantial amount of development and has plans to continue doing so. House prices are below the UK average and are expected to stay that way. This is not the case for Berlin where low prices are caused by a glut of Soviet-built apartment blocks that are rapidly being occupied.

Future economic prosperity - being in a place where currently good circumstances aren’t a temporary alignment of the stars is needed if you want people to risk putting down roots. They need to know they are putting them in good soil. That what we are building isn’t doomed from the start by looming economic trends.

For the goal of human flourishing

Background Demographics

Priority was placed on locations with a diverse range of industries, as they bring talented people with a wide range of interests and skillsets to an area. This also keeps a good gender balance. There was also a strong preference for an english speaking majority. Aside from being able to get menial jobs to pay the bills, rationality is hard enough for people to understand as it is, you don’t need to add a language barrier on top of that.

Background culture

Not too atomized - Atomization is closely linked with turnover. This generally ruled out capital cities as they usually have a large proportion of people who moved there to pursue career goals. Human flourishing requires community, so it is unwise to try to create a community where norms that promote it are culturally discouraged.

A good public transport system

For a variety of reasons, car dependence is one of the factors that drive atomization and contribute to an increased rate of social turnover. Being cheaper than driving also helps.

A place with aesthetic beauty

Somewhere with a long architectural tradition and numerous old buildings increases its appeal to the creative class, helping to tip the scales in our favour. It’s one of the things Paul Graham recommends for trying to compete with silicon valley.

Culture - More productivity, less philosophy

If you want to beat the control group, you need to create a culture optimized for it. You can’t create human flourishing from the lowest common denominator present in our background demographics.

What does that even mean? How does someone go about creating a culture?

Just like intentional communities aren’t ones that formed by accident in some geographic location, an intentional culture is similar.

The purpose of an intentional culture is to stop values being dictated by happenstance.

At this point, the more socially adept readers are probably about ten seconds from posting this xkcd in the comment box.

They’re right, to a degree. You can’t just declare by fiat that from now on we are going to spend less time reading insight porn and more time doing useful work. Well, in a literal sense you can, but what will happen is most people will agree "Yes! This is a obviously useful rule that will make everyone better off" and then behave exactly as they did before.

This presents a dichotomy. On the one hand we have "everyone is doomed because people are slaves to their baser instincts" and on the other “if you post a manifesto on the internet then groups in verbal agreement will spontaneously reorganise to follow not only the letter but the spirit of the rules”. As with almost everything in life, the truth lies somewhere in the middle.

As the xkcd points out, people are complicated. If you want to go about creating an intentional culture that actually fulfills its intentions, you need to have a decent grasp on how people and groups actually work. To pull something like this off, you need to be at least partly what I’d call a Ribbonfarm Sociopath.

This choice to label it sociopathy isn’t entirely mine, or Rao’s for that matter. This is the semantic hammer most people reach for when they get a glimpse of the man behind the curtain.

The reality is that civilization, as it exists today, relies heavily on the man behind the curtain in order to function.

I make no moral judgement on this, nor should you. It is a merely a description of current societal incentive structures.

I’m pretty sure that running civilization entirely on closed-source software is not the optimal end state, but right now, all effective leaders are still forced to rely on parts of it. The 2017 rationalist community in this regard is a lot like the state of open-source in the early 90s. There were promising moves in the right direction, but if you wanted to run an organization in that era, you still had to rely on tools made by Microsoft.

In a sense, the Sequences was for knowledge what the GNU project was for software.

It felt appropriate to name my project Kernel.

But that doesn’t make me Linus Torvalds, nor should it. An operating system that works on humans differs greatly than one designed for hardware.

I’m sure if you kidnapped 1993 Linus and tried to make him tell you how he was going to take open source from where it was then to where it was in 2003, he wouldn’t be able to tell you. Even if you somehow got him to write 5000 pages of information and advice, you wouldn’t be able to follow the same trajectory. At best, he could give you some pointers in the right direction.

As such, here are some components. Some assembly required:

A Group Is Its Own Worst Enemy

Insights about rules, meta-rules and designing monkey-resistant social structures.


Culture is the behaviour you reward and punish

If you want a set of ideals to be followed, you need to create an incentive system that supports those ideals. You also need to be especially careful to reward the thing, only the thing and not the symbolic representation of the thing. If you do the latter, you will only ever get the symbolic version due to its lower cost of production.


80% of Your Culture is Your Founder

Subcultures are, by approximation, personality cults of their most prominent member.

A quick, label-heavy description of yours truly:

It doesn’t fit into the bullet point structure, but I feel it is also worth saying that this project isn’t some discardable stepping stone to bigger and better things, I’m fully intend to watch my grandkids grow up here.


Well-Kept Gardens Die By Pacifism/Geeks, MOPs, and sociopaths

You need to have a strategy in place for dealing with MOPs before you are overrun.

Our current plan is to formalise varying tiers of commitment, and design it so people can get out what they are willing to put in. There is the concern that people will think this is elitist or undemocratic. It is, and they will have to make peace with that fact unless they provide a viable alternative.


Homesteading the Noosphere

With very few notable exceptions, if you want to get anything done in the world more complex than disrupting Shia LaBeouf’s Trump protest, you need some form of centralised leadership. Without it you will get stuck on coordination problems and are unable to benefit from hard to vocalise intuitions, long term vision or any action which requires information in the category of things you cannot say.

Maybe Hanson’s Futarchy will someday be developed enough to make BDFLs obsolete.

Until then, this is basically a Chesterton’s fence that any rationalist project leader with enlightenment ideals sees, tries to think of why it might be a bad idea to tear it down, finds some reasonable objections to do so but finds them unconvincing, tears it down, then a few months later orchestrates a restoration and petitions the federal government to register this particular Chesterton’s fence as a national historic landmark.


The Sequences were an excellent piece of writing, and I found it quite useful to reread them again to assist with my efforts, but it’s worth saying that the Sequences are not enough. They describe the qualities of a basketball player in intricate detail, but you actually have to go out and practice, operationalize the advice to the neuromuscular level, in order to win any games.


I tried fruitlessly to work some of Ben Hoffman’s essays into memorable anecdotes, but his writing is particularly hard to take small quotes from without losing context, so all I can do is recommend you read the full articles. Some particularly relevant ones are The Quaker and the Parselmouth, Sabbath hard and go home and Why I am not a Quaker.


Recognize you don't always have the convenience of operating in abundance

It would be great if I could afford an editor*, and get someone with more verbal talents to explain the ideas and write them up. It would be great if I could give this another month, work in a few important afterthoughts, and provide enough clarification to anticipate all pedantry. It would be great if I could test this on focus groups, and remove any sticking points that cause people to dismiss my ideas out of hand before baring my soul to the world.

I don’t have those things. I can only hope that my passion somewhat makes up for my lack of polish.

This generalises. Sometimes in the course of achieving a goal you have to take actions you’d rather not take. You often have to operate with too little time, money and manpower. You can’t afford to spend a month weighing up the pros and cons of a decision due in the coming week.

*it seems this point was particularly inspiring/guilt-inducing and a swarm of friends stepped in to help, although pasting into the beta editor produced a whole load of extra errors, which have now been fixed, mostly. Particular credit is due to Greg C, Corwin D, Alex D and John W for this, thanks guys.

Conclusion

This is the longest essay I’ve ever written.

No matter where Rationalism decides to call home, it will be up against vast social and economic forces trying to push it back into equilibrium. Any individual or group which dares to stand up to Moloch will be engaged in a constant struggle for survival. They need all the help they can get.

If I were to include research, producing this ~20,000 word essay has taken over a thousand hours of my time. I didn’t write this simply to provide conversation fodder for a Berkeleyan social gathering.

I wrote this in an attempt to find kindred spirits. People who, despite the prevailing social incentives, refuse to stop believing in the mission.

If you want to work with me toward this goal, please send me a message. You can do so through a private message here, on Facebook or by leaving a comment below stating your intentions. All questions are welcome, and I will respond to as many as I can.

Godspeed.

107 comments

Comments sorted by top scores.

comment by [deleted] · 2018-04-26T16:01:36.090Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Update on this project: it has fallen into the classic irrational rationalist attractor of people leaving the group house unannounced owing money (approx. £3000 in rent and bills between them, owed to me). The violation of this most basic of social norms leads me to conclude that the Manchester community (Kernel Project) is now doomed. Now that it is regarded as acceptable, amongst those who remain, to screw people over on rent and bills, what’s to stop it happening again and again, until no one will go near the project? Such a grand vision, trashed for a such a small short term gain. I’m finding it hard to believe to be honest. Regardless of whether genuine friendships (as opposed to temporary alliances) are even possible in this community, there seems to be this blind spot when it comes to basic game theoretical considerations involving trust, reputation and appropriate risks. Why are physical rationalist communities so prone to it? It’s so irrational.

Replies from: rhaps0dy, bendini, FeepingCreature
↑ comment by Adrià Garriga-alonso (rhaps0dy) · 2018-12-22T12:55:40.250Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Upvoting to people see that the project failed earlier, and don't have to spend a couple hours reading the main article given how this turned out.

↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2018-04-27T04:21:32.631Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The amounts are disputed, due to damages resulting from Greg's personal negligence, and if all points in our counterclaim for damages hold water, you would actually be owing thousands to us. After amounts were disputed, you rebuffed all claims as trivial and gave us 36 hours to pay up or else, since then you have taken this to every platform you could find, including contacting one person's startup team members and potential seed accelerators or another person's immediate family in attempt to pressure them into compliance.

With regards to the vision, please don't pretend to mourn something you actively opposed during the nine months you shared a house with us.

Replies from: None
↑ comment by [deleted] · 2018-05-01T03:26:38.888Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
The amounts are disputed

The first I heard of this was after I discovered that they had absconded whilst I was away. They had been racking up debts for months, during which time none of them disputed what they owed* (To be absolutely clear: this is not a flaking on future dated rent, these are accumulated debts for past rent and bills, services that have already been used.)

*The one exception to this was Ben laying claim to a saving made by me on the purchase of my house. He had a chance encounter that led to a heads up on potential issues with my house, and ultimately allowed me to negotiate £1,800 off the asking price. This info was given to me unconditionally at the time, as any friend would do. It don’t think it’s reasonable for him to backdate a claim to some of the savings and regard it as fungible with rent and bills owed. If he’d wanted to sell me the information at the time, fine. I might’ve given him £100 for it or something (although I’m sure a lot of people would just be like “WTF dude, just tell me! I thought you were a friend!”). But he didn’t do this. I will admit that when I first heard this claim, the first order consequentialist in me thought that there may be something to it. The second order consequentialist in me ran away screaming however (see mention of “Kafkaesque hellscape” below). Anyway - and this is neither here nor there, but - had he paid his debts when asked, I probably would have given him something for it.

damages resulting from Greg's personal negligence

I assume Ben is referring to a hot water outage early in the tenancy, which I was away for a lot of. I contacted the landlord about it. I also suggested they phone the landlord but they didn't want to (note I was only “named tenant” here, not the landlord. Just because their names weren’t on the rental contract, it doesn’t mean that they weren’t also tenants of the property, with every right to contact the landlord about things that needed fixing). Perhaps they might also add the leaky taps, that might end up costing us £10 each in wasted water at the most (if a reading of the meter is ever taken). Anyway, I offered them concessions on these points (£250 off for hot water, £10 off for leaky taps), and also asked them how much they thought was reasonable. I got no response.

if all points in our counterclaim for damages hold water, you would actually be owing thousands to us

I also have a number of claims of indefinite monetary value against them, some of which are quite substantial, so I really doubt this.

you rebuffed all claims as trivial

No, my main point was - and still is - that their claims in no way amount to justification for breaking the norm that in shared houses fair shares of rent and bills are paid. Without this norm shared houses are impossible, and by extension, physical rationalist communities. Claims of intangible or indefinite monetary value are not fungible with claims of tangible monetary value (i.e. rent and bills). This point is absolutely key, and should be regarded as the main takeaway from all of this. If claims of indefinite (or intangible) monetary value were to always be explicitly counted, and regarded as fungible with claims of definite (or tangible) monetary value, we’d end up in a Kafkaesque hellscape of a society pretty quickly.

36 hours to pay up or else

What I actually said -- after posting to a Kernel Project Facebook group chat and getting removed from the group immediately -- was: “Ok, I wont post to any other groups for at least 36 hours. You have a chance to redeem yourselves and not be part of the “rationalist houses with people just fucking off owing money” statistic.”. In this case, I would have accepted an attempt to negotiate amounts, or an offer to pay in instalments. Anything conciliatory really. Instead I was met with silence, and the odd snipe.

Remember that this is after they’d had months of racking up debts, without disputing them with me whenever I periodically reminded them of what they owed. It was also clear to me that they had no intention of either paying, or negotiating, given that they had revoked my access to the house finances spreadsheet on Google Sheets (I discovered this shortly after discovering the empty house).

Note that they probably thought that they had concealed evidence (and thereby got away with twisting the truth) by removing me from the Keybase house chat so that I wouldn’t have a record of it. Luckily I had managed to take pictures of the chat logs before they did this. They went from disputing my figures - which are approximations due to me no longer having access to the spreadsheet - to accepting them after this too.

taken this to every platform you could find

I have commented on two LessWrong posts, and posted to the “Coordination of Rationality/EA/SSC Housing Projects” Facebook group chat.

contacting one person's startup team members and potential seed accelerators

There was good reason for this. I am acting as a shareholder protecting my investment. (Yes, I am a shareholder in the company in question. In fact I provided seed funding for it.) The person in question clearly isn’t fit to be CEO of the company given their woeful grasp of tactics and strategy as illustrated by this case. I mean, risking their reputation over a debt of £2,000 when their company aspires to unicorn status? I frankly find it hard to believe that this is happening to be honest.

another person's immediate family in attempt to pressure them into compliance

I contacted parents as an attempt to shame them (the housemates). To be fair, I realise now that perhaps I was typical-minding a bit here. They might not be capable of experiencing shame. Note that I just stated facts and said I would appreciate it if the parents would "have a word" with them. They are free to write to my parents, my conscience is clear regarding this matter.

please don't pretend to mourn something you actively opposed during the nine months you shared a house with us.

During the last nine months, I have:

- Helped get the physical manifestation of the project started by being the only one willing to put my name on legally binding documents (being named tenant, having my name on all the bills);

- Provided white goods and appliances for house use;

- Attended meet-ups;

- Spent a week of my time reading (inc. linked material), and editing, drafts of this blog post;

- Offered my house for use by the project (with individual rental contracts for tenants);

- Regarded them as friends, despite our differences and disagreements. This was right up until last week when I discovered the rental house empty.

They displayed massive entitlement to my house. The plan was for us to all agree on an interior design. And Ben was going to do a lot of the work on the renovation. However, they weren’t accepting of any of my inputs to the design, despite it being my house! The arguments over it were so bad, and Ben was so difficult to work with, that I took him off the job. This is perhaps the trigger for all this happening: some perceived slight - and a great deal of misplaced pride - coming from Ben. He was concerned that were the aesthetics of the house not worthy of his “objectively correct” vision, then the Kernel Project would have been hampered in it’s ability to attract prestigious people. I find it absolutely bizarre that he thinks this, and yet appears to have no concern for how what basically amounts to petty theft looks to said prestigious people!

—————————————————————————————————————————————————

Lastly, I will say that I am not motivated by money here, but rather: fairness. I have enough money. It makes no sense for me to attempt to cheat them out of what to me are relatively small amounts. To show that I am absolutely clear about this, I have offered that they donate what they owe me to EA charities of their choice in lieu of paying me back. We can then discuss our other grievances (i.e. those of indefinite monetary value), and whether they require any net financial transfers either way. For my part this has been an attempt to uphold the golden norm of fair shares of rent and bills being paid in shared houses. Again: without this norm being very widely respected, physical rationalist communities aren’t possible.

↑ comment by FeepingCreature · 2018-04-26T17:36:41.676Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

That's really shitty.

comment by nostalgebraist · 2017-11-03T17:41:25.376Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I am glad that this topic is being discussed. But IMO, this post contains too much about external factors that might have impeded the Craft-and-Community project, and not enough on what project work was done, why that work didn't succeed, and/or why it wasn't enough.

There have been a number of rationalist-branded organizations that tried to spread, develop, or apply LW-rationality. The main examples I have in mind are MetaMed and CFAR. My ideal postmortem would include a lot of words about why MetaMed failed, whether CFAR failed, whether the results in either case are surprising in hindsight, etc. This post doesn't mention MetaMed, and only mentions CFAR briefly. And while I share your negative assesssment of CFAR, you don't talk in any detail about how you came to this assessment or what lessons might be learned from it.

While it may be true that cultural, economic, etc. factors indirectly caused the Craft-and-Community project to fail, there is an intermediate causal layer, the actual things people did (or avoided doing) to further the project. If your boss tells you to build a rocket by next month, and next month there is no rocket, and your boss asks why, you can say things like "we were thinking about the problem in the wrong way" or "our team has a dysfunctional dynamic," and these may well be true facts, but it is also important to address what you actually did, and why it didn't produce the desired rocket.

I wrote more about this on tumblr, but my own suspicion is that the biggest challenges to face in building a world-improving community are organizational, and the Craft-and-Community project failed because LW-rationality was almost entirely about improving individual judgment. Hence, we shouldn't have expected to get results back then, and we shouldn't expect results now, (at least) until someone does promising work collecting/systemizing/testing management advice, or something in that general area.

Replies from: sarahconstantin, bendini, whpearson
↑ comment by sarahconstantin · 2017-11-03T18:10:09.412Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Here's my postmortem on MetaMed: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1HzZd3jsG9YMU4DqHc62mMqKWtRer_KqFpiaeN-Q1rlI/edit?usp=sharing

Here's Zvi's, which is quite different: https://thezvi.wordpress.com/2015/06/30/the-thing-and-the-symbolic-representation-of-the-thing/

Replies from: Zvi
↑ comment by Zvi · 2017-11-03T20:20:01.370Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think that post of mine is important but it is (obviously) not attempting to be a full post-mortem. We did a ton of things wrong at MetaMed, and I did a ton of things wrong, and this focuses mostly on one (very important) particular thing - the business idea itself. The business idea was quite bad. I never did write the full post-mortem for various reasons. One of those was that by the end I was so emotionally worn down that I couldn't bear to think about things enough to write the damn thing, another was that I didn't want to cause any more drama.

What drives me nuts is that people look at MetaMed and say, well, rationalists are bad at doing start-ups or doing business or forming companies. They say, 'we had our chance and we failed.' And this is insane. It is completely f***ing nuts. Most start-ups fail. Failing at a start-up doesn't even mean that you, personally are bad at start-ups. If anything the SV-style wisdom is that it means you have experience and showed you will give it your all, and should try again! You don't blow your credibility by taking investor money, having a team that gives it their all for several years, and coming up short.

It certainly does not mean that the entire community you associate with is now not credible and should never be given another chance, or doesn't deserve one, or would just fail.

Would I do a lot differently? Oh my, yes. And I'm quite happy with my current job and have no plans to try again any time soon. I can advise, nothing more. But if anything, I was impressed by our attempt in many ways, despite all the things we did wrong, and I think we absolutely should try again if people want to do that. With a better business idea nowhere near the medical system.

Replies from: sarahconstantin, nostalgebraist
↑ comment by sarahconstantin · 2017-11-03T20:45:01.549Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Yep! Startup failure is the default. I think anybody who attacks the entire community because we founded a failed startup is just being spiteful.

↑ comment by nostalgebraist · 2017-11-04T01:33:29.091Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"Most startups fail" is important to keep in mind here, and I now realize my previous comment implied more focus on why MetaMed specifically failed than is warranted. I still stand by the "build a rocket" analogy, but it should be applied broadly, and not just to the highest-profile projects (and not just to projects that actually materialized enough to fail).

Is there some sort of list of Craft-and-Community-relevant projects that have been attempted since 2009, besides just the meetup groups? If not, should there be one?

Replies from: c0rw1n
↑ comment by c0rw1n · 2017-11-04T01:49:48.487Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Why yes, there should be such a list; I don't know of any existing one.

Replies from: ZeitPolizei
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-04T04:17:29.515Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
this post contains too much about external factors that might have impeded the Craft-and-Community project, and not enough on what project work was done, why that work didn't succeed, and/or why it wasn't enough.

In retrospect, this is true, although CFAR got off much more lightly in the final version than the first draft partially because there were only so many hills worth dying on.

I shall give you my thoughts on why the sequences didn't "produce the desired rocket":

  • The vast majority of us weren't even trying to build the rocket. Yud outlined the design and requested that the community go forth and build the rocket, but most of us were space enthusiasts, not engineers. Granted, if we truly cared about getting the task done, we could have took a leaf from Elon's book and started reading through old soviet rocket manuals, but most of us didn't emotionally value rocketbuilding enough to actually do it.
  • Since the group that formed were mostly space enthusiasts, the status hierarchy that formed within the group was "who could describe the desire for interplanetary exploration most vividly", not anything remotely correlated with engineering ability, so few engineers felt welcome in the community since their talents weren't actually valued.
  • The Center For Aerospace Rocketry that was meant to be training people to build rockets contained no actual rocket scientists, nor did it see any point in hiring any. It attempted to develop new techniques for thinking about how to build rockets, but since none of them ever spent much time building rockets the material that ended up being taught to students was how to write vivid space metaphors and vague speculative guesses on how to think about building rockets.
  • Yud warned about the perils of going straight into rocket science teaching after hearing rumours that someone was going to take his rocket design and try to teach people to be rocket scientists with it, the community of space enthusiasts assured him he was talking nonsense and refused to listen to him.
  • Every person who is trying to build the rocket is doing so on their own because the space enthusiasts aren't paying attention. The engineers are hashing out the mechanical properties of various aluminuim alloys which is boooorinnnnngggggg compared to shiny new space metaphors.
  • The people who have taken it upon themselves to create tools to make the rocket builders more effective at building the rockets (physical object level tools, not thinking meta level tools) are routinely asked to explain why on earth they are spending their time on such pointless nonsense.
  • The space enthusiast community that congregated around the rocket design plan gets rather exassperated any time someone interested in engineering points out that they were asked to build the rocket and instead sat around talking about the wonders of spacetravel
  • The widespread attitude that "yeah, obviously someone should build the rocket. But it isn't going to be me, nor am I going to help anyone, or even avoid looking at people trying to build the rocket as kinda crazy"
  • Most of the space enthusiasts believe that the Soviet Robot will be ressurected and build the rocket for them far better than they ever could, so we might as well wait for that to happen.

Building rockets requires so many little components of knowledge that one person or even a small group of people cannot build a rocket on their own. When the people who were supposed to build the rocket instead don't and then passively undermine any attempts to actually build the rocket, no rocket gets built.

Getting back to the object level point

Very little work on the craft was actually ever done. CFAR originally told people they were going to develop craft, but only ever bothered trying to develop meta-craft. The people who wanted craft for themselves made do with externally produced material and sorting through all the nonsense to get to the half-decent stuff.

You want post-mortems of craft development, I can't give you any, because there aren't any goddamn bodies to examine. I tried to do some craft development myself, and did a little bit of it in an ad-hoc way, but putting in the huge amount of time and effort to formally systemize it never happened because the initial response from the audience was "meh, we don't really care or see the value in it" so I went back to doing what I would be rewarded for.

It eventually started bothering me enough that I devised a way to fix the incentive structure so object-level craft development would start happening.

Edit: forgot about Gwern.net which hasn't failed, but has had limited impact and very few focus areas, although the nootropics section is pretty useful.

Replies from: nostalgebraist
↑ comment by nostalgebraist · 2017-11-04T19:58:13.996Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This is somewhat closer to what I was asking for, but still mostly about group dynamics rather than engineering (or rather, the analogue of "engineering" on the other side of the rocket analogy). But I take your point that it's hard to talk about engineering if the team culture was so bad that no one ever tried any engineering.

I do think that it would be very helpful for you to give more specifics, even if they're specifics like "this person/organization is doing something that is stupid and irrelevant for these reasons." (If the engineers spent all their time working on their crackpot perpetual motion machine, describe that.)

Basically, I'm asking you to name names (of people/orgs), and give many more specifics about the names you have named (CFAR). This would require you to be less diplomatic than you have been so far, and may antagonize some people. But look, you're trying to get people to move to a different city (in most cases, a different country) to be part of your new project. You've mostly motivated that project by saying, in broad terms, that currently existing rationalists are doing most everything wrong. Moving to a different country is already a risky move, and the EV goes down sharply once some currently-existing-rationalist considers that the founder may well fundamentally disagree with their goals and assumptions. The only way to make this look positive-EV to very many individuals would be to show much more explicitly which sorts of currently-existing-rationalists you disapprove of, so that individuals are able to say "okay, that's not me."

See e.g. this bit from one of your other comments

This depends entirely on how you measure it. If I was to throw all other goals under the bus for the sake of proving you wrong, I'm pretty sure I could find enough women to nod along to a watered down version. If instead we're going for rationalist Rationalists then a lot of the fandom people wouldn't make the cut and I suspect if we managed to outdo tech, we would be beating The Bay.

Consider an individual woman trying to decide whether to move to Manchester from Berkeley. As it stands, you have a not explicitly stated theory of what makes the good kind of rationalist, such that many/most female Berkeley rats do not qualify. Without further information, the woman will conclude that she probably does not qualify, in which case she's definitely not going to move. The only way to fix this is to articulate the theory directly so individuals can check themselves against it.

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-05T12:10:16.748Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Okay, here are the list of rationalist relevant projects that I could think of, and what I think went wrong. If you know of any more, I may actually have opinions, but have just forgotten they were part of this category.

CFAR - Originally kinda tried to do the thing, realised it was hard and that it would be a lot of work, ended up doing the meta thing and optimizing for that. As it matured, it basically became Rationality University, with all the connotations that would imply. A lot of people who had been around for a while and absorbed the cultural memes openly admitted they were only shelling out the cash in order to gain access to the alumni network, although in a sense that might not be zero sum much in the same way $5000-a-plate inneffective charity dinners can be - the commitment mechanism increases the group's quality and trust such that it is worth paying the price of admission.

MIRI - Took a while to get organization competence, and in the early days the ops stuff was pretty amateur, and this was pointed out by external evaluations. Since then they have apparently improved, and I take this claim at face value. There still seems to be a few strategic errors, mostly in the signalling department, that are putting up barriers to getting themselves taken seriously. I mean I can understand why Yud wouldn't want to take time out to get a PhD but not obvious easily solvable things like "38 year old men should not have a publicly accessible Facebook profile with a My Little Pony picture in the photos section".

MetaMed - relatively little to say here. it has meta in the name, it was not and never pretended to be object level craft, and that's totally fine. Worth pointing out that they would have greatly benefited from object-level craft existing on effective delegation and marketing so they didn't have to learn it the hard way. As they said, startups failing is a poor signal of anything since it's the expected outcome.

Dragon's army - At least Duncan is trying something different. The unimpressive resume boasts and the lack of prediction as to how bad it would look were certainly points against him. But from the outside, the operations and implementation of the goals originally set out seems to be pretty solid, regardless of how useful that kind of generalism is to Bay Area programmers.

Accelerator - Formally disbanded due to personal events in the leader's life, but while it was operating, I struggle to think of a single thing it was doing right. There was a bit of a norms violation on saying "we're going to work off a consensus of volunteers" but actually operating off of unexplained royal decrees by the person with the most money (but not actually enough money, the capital Eric had available would have covered much less than half of what was needed to execute his plan)

Arbital - I think this failed because they tried to be Wikipedia, but better, run as a startup. Of all the work required to create Wikipedia, the code is essentially the easy part. Sure, it requires talent, but in terms of raw hours it was probably less than 1% of the time involved making Wikipedia the world's knowledge base. I wasn't close enough to observe but I've got a pretty strong feeling that it was almost if not entirely staffed with ingroup members, and that outside people who had valuable connections to volunteers prepared to do the grunt work were overlooked because they didn't have enough "culture fit".

Miscellanious AI groups - I have no specific opinion on their competence, but I'm against the idea that keeps getting thrown about that goes something like "you can't say were not acheiving real things, look! we have [list of 10 AI organizations]" research in this area should happen, but when more than half of rationalist organizations are either directly to do with AI or have it as a focus area, it makes us a bit of a one trick pony. Not to mention that AI was explicitly never meant to be the be all and end all of rationalism.

Leverage research - The thing that "leverage" refers to is the meta level, and basically funds people to sit around in a room thinking of insights on 1-3 meta levels, in the hope that one of them someday will have a spark of brilliance and end up finding something that can be applied to make 100 million to bring the whole operation back out of the red. This is fine, and if you have the financial leverage to implement such an insight, it makes sense to fund something like this.

80K hours - This is probably the closest thing to systemized object level craft that exists on a scale that has much impact. Occasionally ends up implying harmful untrue things like "you should quit your non-replaceable-due-to-quotas job as a doctor to become a charity researcher". A slight shame that they don't just offer career advice impartially, rather than optimizing getting others to be more altruistic.

EA stuff - good that it exists, and varying levels of opinion of their competence, depending on the org. Meta point here that rational charity evaluation and Xrisk research are not the only areas people can or should do systemized winning in.

Consider an individual woman trying to decide whether to move to Manchester from Berkeley. As it stands, you have a not explicitly stated theory of what makes the good kind of rationalist, such that many/most female Berkeley rats do not qualify. Without further information, the woman will conclude that she probably does not qualify, in which case she's definitely not going to move. The only way to fix this is to articulate the theory directly so individuals can check themselves against it.

First of all, the impression that rationalists take ideas seriously enough that the new information brought to light will cause half of Berkeley to vacate to Manchester is simply untrue. Even if the facts implied that they should move, which they don't necessarily depending on your goals. This is not how people work, this isn't even how rationalists work. How many people bothered to systematically and rigarously evaluate moving to Berkeley before doing so? I'd wager less than 10%. So it would make sense that laying out the math to prove they messed up won't actually persuade the other 90% to leave.

I'd be surprised if more than three people who read this in the ~500 person Berkeley community actually decide to up sticks and move in the coming year.

If there are any women thinking of moving, the reaction is likely because their reaction when reading this essay was something like "OMG this is what I've been wanting for years" rather than because I might consider them a real rationalist.

"What does it mean to be a rationalist" is a broad topic and overlaps with questions like "what personality traits do you need to be a rationalist" and I can't say I have a conclusive answer, but if you want a half formed one, something like:

  • has read at least 75% of the sequences
  • strong curiosity about what's true/strong appetite for knowledge
  • tries very hard to put emotions aside when truthseeking
  • contributes towards the advancement of knowledge in some way
Replies from: nostalgebraist
↑ comment by nostalgebraist · 2017-11-05T18:08:29.294Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thanks -- this is informative and I think it will be useful for anyone trying to decide what to make of your project.

I have disagreements about the "individual woman" example but I'm not sure it's worth hashing it out, since it gets into some thorny stuff about persuasion/rhetoric that I'm sure we both have strong opinions on.

Regarding MIRI, I want to note that although the organization has certainly become more competently managed, the more recent OpenPhil review included some very interesting and pointed criticism of the technical work, which I'm not sure enough people saw, as it was hidden in a supplemental PDF. Clearly this is not the place to hash out those technical issues, but they are worth noting, since the reviewer objections were more "these results do not move you toward you stated goal in this paper" than "your stated goal is pointless or quixotic," so if true they are identifying a rationality failure.

↑ comment by whpearson · 2017-11-03T21:28:09.789Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The sense I have been getting is lot of effectiveness might be fractal in nature. Things like goodheart's law applies to many levels. There seems to be correlations between OODA loops and some of the agile ideas of quick feedback loops. The idea of slack can be applied on the individual and group level due to pipelines being everywhere and needing time to reflect. I suspect even if we knew how to solve these things intellectually we would need time to practice them as well.

comment by ozymandias · 2017-11-02T16:22:30.023Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Haven't finished the entire post, but I would like to correct your claim that people who live in the Bay Aea and want to have children have to buy houses. Currently there are three group houses I'm aware of with children (Nexus, Asgard, and Onward). As far as I am aware all three have solid alloparenting norms, where it is normal and expected that people who are not the child's parents will take care of the child sometimes. This is the cross-culturally normal way for people to take care of children. I am convinced the ludicrous Anglosphere norm that each parent (or set of parents) lives in a separate house and the only non-parent people who provide care for a child are paid is a significant part of the reason parenting makes people miserable.

My husband and I are making significant personal sacrifices to move to Onward. We expect that he will be able to work full-time and me part-time, without day care, because of the social support available in a place with strong group house norms and not available elsewhere.

(Also, who lives in Berkeley and works at Facebook? Who drives to work in the Bay Area? This is why God invented trains and commuter buses.)

Replies from: sarahconstantin, ozymandias, sarahconstantin
↑ comment by sarahconstantin · 2017-11-02T20:33:48.807Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Additionally, my husband is setting up a homeschooling center in Berkeley (we expect the "entering class" to be about two years away, as we're waiting for the current crop of babies to grow up). We think we can work it out so that it costs half as much as daycare, a full-time babysitter, or a private school -- while still being a much better education than public school.

(For young children, think Montessori-style; as the kids get older, think group and independent projects, internships, SOLE, taking advantage of UC Berkeley's resources, co-working with adults, generally doing more stuff in the real world than school generally allows children to do.)

Elon Musk founded a school to educate his kids. It's kind of a convergent thing to do, among people of a certain level of success and awareness of how the world works. You don't have to shell out infinite money for lousy education just because it's the done thing.

Replies from: spiralingintocontrol, patri-friedman
↑ comment by spiralingintocontrol · 2017-11-03T15:31:34.664Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
It's kind of a convergent thing to do, among people of a certain level of success and awareness of how the world works.

Relatedly, my parents helped found an elementary school that my oldest sibling was in the founding class of. That school is now about as expensive per-year as out-of-state tuition at a nice university. (Still a nice school, though.) It has about 200 students at any given time.

My takeaway from this is that scaling schools at all at a reasonable cost is really hard.

↑ comment by Patri Friedman (patri-friedman) · 2017-11-05T05:20:44.833Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
my husband is setting up a homeschooling center in Berkeley...Elon Musk founded a school to educate his kids. It's kind of a convergent thing to do

These examples seem to me provide great support for the claim that the Bay Area is a terribly difficult place to raise children. If I heard that you and Elon Musk were growing your own herbs to counteract the toxic levels of pesticides found in storebought spices, I would conclude that the food supply is seriously effed up, not that everything is fine.

Yes, you're demonstrating that it's ameliorable, but the fact that high-performing people need to put in individual effort to get a decent solution to a common need is not exactly encouraging. And depending on a community to invent novel solutions at half market price is generally not a winning stra

Replies from: sarahconstantin, ozymandias
↑ comment by sarahconstantin · 2017-11-06T17:59:49.035Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Note that Musk lives in LA, not the Bay Area. Problems with educational quality are America-wide.

↑ comment by ozymandias · 2017-11-06T03:50:59.115Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

If you have any leads on where I can obtain an Optimal Autodidacting education for my (likely highly gifted, likely autistic or broad autism phenotype) child for $10,000 a year without doing it myself, please let me know.

(Note that I do not value granite countertops and thus the increased cost of a house in a "good neighborhood" should be considered to be tuition.)

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-06T05:19:35.937Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I'm not sure of the details, and it may take a few years to get up and running, but it seems plausible to me that if you could get together five children in a mixed aged class, you've got $50,000 to spend. That amount of money can rent (or mortgage) a 2/3 bedroom house and pay a super-competent teacher/supervisor, given the going rate of mid-career schoolteachers is ~$40,000 and instead of dealing with bureaucracy, mandatory curriculum and resentful state school kids they have a self-directed passion job of teaching only highly gifted and unconventional children.

The difference here is that it isn't a bit of space in a grouphouse while the adults are at work in the daytime, but a dedicated house, as well as the fact that a meaningful job role offering $40k can get you a LOT higher quality applicants at that price here in Manchester than it could in The Bay.

Offering $40k for such a role here could get you a non-ingroup candidate with no job-relevant mental issues, good people skills and a masters degree or higher level of general knowledge communicated in pitch-perfect British English.

What can it get you in Berkeley?

Replies from: ozymandias, sarahconstantin
↑ comment by ozymandias · 2017-11-06T20:21:28.175Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I'd prefer to hire a person I know, because I would be able to more easily screen them for a lot of things I care about that are hard to screen for in an interview. (For example, a pro-neurodiversity attitude, respect for children's autonomy, ability to control their temper.) There's a reason lots of hires happen within social networks, even outside the rationalist community.

It is also odd to me that I listed off "my child is likely to have a mental health condition" as a constraint and then you assumed that badbrains would be an obvious negative. It seems to me that a teacher with a well-managed mental health condition would be an excellent role model for a twice exceptional student and have a particular understanding of and empathy for their difficulties.

Also, that plan is called "starting a school" which is the thing Patri was criticizing.

↑ comment by sarahconstantin · 2017-11-06T18:03:50.437Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This is very close to our plan, including the cost. A $40,000 salary for a teacher seems roughly market rate. We have ingroup candidates with teaching experience, good people skills, and masters degrees, but of course there's no law that says we can't hire someone we don't know, it's just a lot easier to get trust and goodwill when you use existing social ties.

(I frankly don't want to live in a community that discriminates as radically as you're suggesting against the mentally ill. In the US, this is technically illegal. It also seems unreasonable to me. You can do what you like in Manchester, but it's not something I intend to do.)

Replies from: weft, ozymandias
↑ comment by weft · 2017-11-06T22:45:38.208Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

> A $40,000 salary for a teacher seems roughly market rate.

Salary.com says: "The median annual Teacher Elementary School salary in Berkeley, CA is $66,364, as of October 30, 2017, with a range usually between $54,362-$78,713 not including bonus and benefits."

It's probably beside your main point, but people being way off base on middle class salaries is a pet peeve of mine.

Replies from: jkaufman
↑ comment by jefftk (jkaufman) · 2017-11-16T16:38:18.431Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

You also need to account for taxes; for them to get $66k after tax you probably need to pay $100k pre tax.

↑ comment by ozymandias · 2017-11-06T21:00:56.672Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Employment discrimination against the mentally ill is also illegal in the UK. In particular, it is illegal to ask whether someone has a mental illness during an interview. I imagine a small school could easily get away with discriminating against teachers with mental illnesses, but regardless it is probably ill-advised to express your intent to break the law on a public forum.

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-07T00:18:19.848Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

First of all, the thing I was trying to communicate was what kind of candidate you could get in the UK, the general gist being "someone who doesn't have some limiting-reagent crippling their employment oppertunities to the point that $40k/year in Berkeley is the best offer that highly gifted candidate has". (I have corrected it as such)

I didn't say masters degree, I said masters degree level of general knowledge, big difference.

If you can't tell someone is greatly held back from the details of their work history without asking questions about their mental health, then any mental illness is well-managed enough that it ceases to matter.

It should also go without saying that if you can get someone to do it in Berkeley for $40k, you can get the equivilent here for $15k. If the going rate is $65k+bonus+health insurance, I'd say don't take for granted that someone's promise that "yeah I'll homeschool five kids for $50k minus premesis rent and employment-side costs" will actually happen, and if it does, they won't stay in that role for anywhere near the time you'd want them to.

If your $50k-premisis rent system relies on ingroup friends being given a stipend for a fulltime job, that's fine, but it is not comparable to what we would be able to do i.e. pay someone market rates without it being any kind of favour. If you want me to make estimates using the same degree of optimistic projections then we're looking at around $10k all in if the teacher lived in the homeschool, had two roommates who worked fulltime, didn't have to pay health insurance and just got all their living expenses paid plus a £200/month stipend. It could be done in theory, but it would require every optimistic assumption to be true.

We could shuffle the numbers about a bit, quadruple the class size and offer them $100k. But as a rule, if you wan't to not get blindsided by cost overruns, you need to be quite pessimistic when making financial assumptions.

↑ comment by ozymandias · 2017-11-02T16:44:22.470Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Further nitpicks:

There are definitely homeshares based around shared love of Harry Potter. This is called the "Harry Potter fandom" and it is somewhat puzzling to me that someone in the rationalist community could miss that this is a thing.

~All tech companies provide their workers three free meals a day, you don't need to cook unless you happen to personally like cooking.

I am personally aware of perhaps a dozen people in the Berkeley rationalist community who are being financially supported, either because they are disabled or because they're doing unpaid/ill-paying work (art, effective altruism, community building, parenting, startups). There are probably more that I'm not aware of because people's finances are private. As far as I can tell, there is no shortage of programmers willing and able to financially support talented friends and partners.

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-02T21:54:26.866Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I would like to correct your claim that people who live in the Bay Aea and want to have children have to buy houses. Currently there are three group houses I'm aware of with children (Nexus, Asgard, and Onward). As far as I am aware all three have solid alloparenting norms, where it is normal and expected that people who are not the child's parents will take care of the child sometimes.

This is true, and something I was aware of when writing this. The general point was not "it's literally impossible for anyone in the bay to have kids" but "it's really difficult and even the couples with a household income at the 90th percentile have to make serious sacrifices in order to do so". People there have gotten so used to a missing stair that it barely registers that most people aren't having to make such giant leaps when going down staircases, nor can most people.

I agree that alloparenting and homeschooling cooperatives are probably superior, the point is that even if they weren't, you'd still have to do them out of necessity.

There are definitely homeshares based around shared love of Harry Potter. This is called the "Harry Potter fandom"

99% of J.K. Rowling fans don't do this, but point taken. I've now changed this to something else lots of people like, but I'm sure someone will point out that there is in fact a houseshare that is held together by rituals around the Aeron chair

who lives in Berkeley and works at Facebook?

No idea, not much is revealed about Berkeley to the outside world

Who drives to work in the Bay Area? This is why God invented trains and commuter buses.

Again, those on the outside have very little information about this, because there are few object-level guides on anything. It's kinda dissapointing that more ink has been spilled over the topic of electron suffering than the day to day realities of living in Berkeley.

I am personally aware of perhaps a dozen people in the Berkeley rationalist community who are being financially supported, either because they are disabled or because they're doing unpaid/ill-paying work

As am I, better hope they never have a falling out. The platonic concubine system creates power dynamics that would simply not exist if the community was centered somewhere with a sane cost of living.

Replies from: ozymandias
↑ comment by ozymandias · 2017-11-03T15:28:26.415Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I have thoroughly investigated (I don't like living in a place with sky-high rents either!) and as far as I can tell the only place where I have access to friends who share my parenting values and want to live with me and help me raise my children is the Bay Area. The social isolation of parenting young children is very very real and a huge factor in prenatal depression. It is hardly an improvement to switch from "something which is generally a good decision for most people is pretty affordable, something which isn't is incredibly expensive" to "the bad decision is cheap and the good decision is impossible."

(Which is not to say that there aren't tradeoffs. Most notably, group house parenting trades off a lot with private space, in part because houses are not designed for multi-family living.)

If you know that the vast majority of Bay Area rationalist parents live in group houses, and essentially none of them purchase homes, it is deeply puzzling to me why you didn't even put in a sentence along the lines of "many people live in group homes and have children", and instead give the mistaken impression that Bay Area parents are buying houses.

--

I am confused about what sort of blog post you are requesting people write. I assume you don't mean that people should list off a variety of interesting facts about the Bay Area, e.g. "the public transit system, while deeply inadequate, is one of the best in the country," "UCSF is one of the top hospitals in the United States for labor and delivery," "everything in San Francisco smells like urine," "adult night at the Exploratorium is awesome," "there are multiple socialist pizza places in Berkeley which schismed over whether to serve beer." This seems of limited interest to people who don't live in the Bay Area and of equally limited interest to people who live in the Bay Area (they know). If people are moving to the Bay Area I assume they'd discuss this with their friends who already live here.

If you are ignorant of verifiable facts about the Bay Area like "it is relatively uncommon to commute by car", I have to question your ability to make accurate statements about more subtle and hard-to-check issues of social dynamics. If you have not talked to enough Berkeley residents to hear "gotta go, train's here", then I doubt your ability to comment on why our social demographics are the way they are.

--

Even in a place with a sane cost of living, many disabled people and immigrants simply cannot work, parenting is not a paid profession, and many important forms of community-building are more efficient if unpaid. In the Bay Area it is often possible to find other friends who will tide you over if you're unable to work due to disability, immigration status, small children, etc. (I myself had a bad breakup with a person who was supporting me and did not become homeless.)

Regardless, your claim that people have insufficient financial slack to fund the creation of the art of rationality seems clearly untrue. Perhaps they are failing for some other reason.

Replies from: c0rw1n
↑ comment by c0rw1n · 2017-11-03T21:23:40.073Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I am confused about what sort of blog post you are requesting people write. I assume you don't mean that people should list off a variety of interesting facts about the Bay Area, e.g. "the public transit system, while deeply inadequate, is one of the best in the country," "UCSF is one of the top hospitals in the United States for labor and delivery," "everything in San Francisco smells like urine," "adult night at the Exploratorium is awesome," "there are multiple socialist pizza places in Berkeley which schismed over whether to serve beer." This seems of limited interest to people who don't live in the Bay Area and of equally limited interest to people who live in the Bay Area (they know). If people are moving to the Bay Area I assume they'd discuss this with their friends who already live here.

Those posts would be useful indeed.

Specifically because :

If you are ignorant of verifiable facts about the Bay Area like "it is relatively uncommon to commute by car", I have to question your ability to make accurate statements about more subtle and hard-to-check issues of social dynamics. If you have not talked to enough Berkeley residents to hear "gotta go, train's here", then I doubt your ability to comment on why our social demographics are the way they are.

You literally just pointed out that people are not writing about the practical details of living there, and you're dismissing Ben's points that reference the things that he ostensibly knows because people are writing about them, because he does not know the things that you yourself pointed out that people are not writing about!

Replies from: ozymandias
↑ comment by ozymandias · 2017-11-06T20:29:08.608Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

So there is an enormous cultural failure because no one wrote a blog post containing knowledge that is primarily of interest to Bendini? It seems to me a true rationalist should be able to solve this problem, perhaps by commissioning a report, or by talking to people who live in Berkeley, or having a beta reader, or by editing his post to correct obvious errors when there is a much-upvoted comment pointing them out.

In fact, Bendini did reblog and comment on a post I wrote, In Defense of Unreliability, in which I discussed the fact that I get places through trains and Uberpool. Perhaps he simply assumed I was a very unusual person, or perhaps he forgot, or perhaps he didn't bother to read the post he was commenting on, but either way this doesn't make me very optimistic about the plan where Bay Area rationalist bloggers transform into the Bay Area travel bureau instead of Bendini taking responsibility for not making glaring mistakes.

I am personally happy to beta-read any of Bendini's posts in the future that contain claims about the Berkeley rationalist community or to signal-boost any requests he makes for such beta readers in the future.

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-11T05:27:11.519Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
So there is an enormous cultural failure because no one wrote a blog post containing knowledge that is primarily of interest to Bendini?

Surely I'm not the only one who would want accurate information about an area if I was considering moving to it and not have to play twenty questions with the person who lives there, assuming I know what to ask? (e.g. "do homeless people by any chance defecate on the street?" is not a question I'd intuitively ask, even though the question is quite relevant)

In fact, Bendini did reblog and comment on a post I wrote, In Defense of Unreliability, in which I discussed the fact that I get places through trains and Uberpool. Perhaps he simply assumed I was a very unusual person, or perhaps he forgot, or perhaps he didn't bother to read the post he was commenting on, but either way this doesn't make me very optimistic about the plan where Bay Area rationalist bloggers transform into the Bay Area travel bureau instead of Bendini taking responsibility for not making glaring mistakes.

I did read and reblog that, yes. Consider a passage from your essay:

However, I do want to explain why I myself am quite unreliable and how I benefit from a social norm in which this unreliability is acceptable. (We should also note that I have lived in the Bay for the majority of my adult, actually-socializing life, so I may be unfamiliar with the benefits of a non-flake lifestyle.)

And a passage from mine:

When a negative attribute present in some individuals becomes woven into the cultural fabric, it becomes much more difficult to unravel. Even if it makes the community worse off on the whole, individuals can benefit in ways analogous to special interest groups. People with the trait that was previously frowned upon now get accommodations around it, ranging from a free pass to continue the behaviour, to resources being spent in order to limit its repercussions.

You are welcome to have this mutual "random flaking is allowed" agreement, but a widespread acceptance that this is the way things should be impacts anyone trying to do something important. Imagine a startup trying to operate on a policy of "yeah just come to work whenever you feel like it, don't wory about picking up the phone or respond to emails, just do what you want and we will have to work around it I guess"

This is one of the reasons for-profit things are far more successful, it's not just the ability to get people to do the unglamorous work by paying them money, but the set of norms for what is and isn't acceptable. The problem is that projects not run as for-profit buisnesses flounder because people don't actually follow for-profit norms like showing up when you say you will.

This is bad if you acnowledge the existence of projects which are a poor fit for the for-profit model, as things like this make them far less successful.

Replies from: philh, ozymandias, lahwran, habryka4
↑ comment by philh · 2017-11-18T22:20:13.226Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The majority of this comment (from "I did read and reblog") seems like it's changing the subject, in a direction that looks a lot like point-scoring. Ozy was saying that you had sources of information about Berkeley that did not appear to inform this post; in response, you bring up the question of reliability.

↑ comment by ozymandias · 2017-11-18T22:28:56.277Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I agree with Phil that the question of whether it is a good thing that I am unreliable is entirely unrelated to the question of whether you should have learned about Bay Area transit from a post you read which extensively discusses Bay Area transit, which in turn is a derail from the fact that you have a factual error in your post which you have not corrected several weeks after it was first pointed out to you.

My offer of betaing remains open.

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-20T15:03:13.530Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

In retrospect, snarkily proving I had paid enough attention to your post to incorporate some of it into my essay was not the best way to make the point. My apologies.

The reason I have not changed the article is that changing that information would require a careful splice to preserve the original feel of the passage, for no informational benefit. Here is why I think this:

The hypothetical journey from Ward Street to Facebook HQ, although insane from my point of view, isn't all that uncommon among tech workers in general.

Public transport, although cheaper than driving due to government subsidies, is slower according to Google maps (if they can't provide accurate info in the commute radius of their top employees, I'll be very suprised). This seems to be in line with the regular gripes that wonder across my tumblr dash about how slow and unreliable it is, something you also point out in that post

The Bay Area’s public transit system is really really good compared to public transit in most of the rest of the country (for one thing, it is possible to get places on it). However, our public transit is certainly inferior to, say, New York City’s. One of the ways this works is that sometimes, based on the Inscrutable Whim of the Train Gods, the train will choose to show up fourteen minutes late.

Looking at the actual data Google gives, we get a estimated commute time of 50m - 1h40m on a typical workday (I used 1h30m as the figure, as a number towards the higher end of the range wouldnt mean the hypothetical person wouldn't be late to work half of the time)

That same journey on public transport, without delays or missed connections from the previous one being late is 1h45m, five minutes longer than the worst case estimate for driving.

Do you have local information that would contradict this?

Replies from: ozymandias
↑ comment by ozymandias · 2017-11-20T17:45:51.879Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

If you work at Facebook you probably take the Facebook bus, which is ~1 hour 30 minutes door to door (I'm guessing based on the Ward-Street-to-Google travel time).

Things you can do on a train that you can't do driving: read, write, meditate, watch a movie, talk to a friend online, knit (and similar handcrafts), plan/schedule things, study, answer emails. It's not a great time for any work where you really need to be in flow or where you need equipment that takes up a lot of space, but otherwise there are a lot of goals you can advance while sitting on a train.

Things that you can do driving: listen to music, listen to a podcast or audiobook, talk to the people you're carpooling with if you're carpooling, talk to your kid if you happen to use an on-site daycare that you're taking them to, maybe call someone on a carphone, that's... about it. All five of those things, of course, can also be done on a train. And of course distracted driving can literally kill you or a child, while the worst case scenario for distracted train-taking is missing your stop.

The Google bus has wifi (I believe Facebook bus does as well) which means you can do more things because you have Internet on your laptop and not just your phone.

Taking public transit also improves your health and has a variety of positive externalities on e.g. the environment.

↑ comment by the gears to ascension (lahwran) · 2017-11-19T07:55:53.081Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
"yeah just come to work whenever you feel like it, don't wory about picking up the phone or respond to emails, just do what you want and we will have to work around it I guess"

This has been the policy at all startups I've worked at. "Be here at 9am (or at my current place, 10:30am), except if you don't want to. Come to this meeting, except if you'd rather not. We're paying you to be value aligned for this amount of time a week because you passed our capability tests on hiring, everything else is up to you. Just be agenty about it."

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-20T15:27:01.033Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The key things here are value alignment and implicit norms, Netflix offers employees "unlimited vacation", the quotation marks are there for a reason.

There is a big difference between an employee who works semi-irregular hours and misses irrelevant meetings and one that goes completely off the grid without any warning when they are being relied upon to do a specific task.

If your PR person flaked on a scheduled news appearance because they were in bed redditing, are you telling me the company wouldn't mind because they are pro-autonomy?

Replies from: ozymandias
↑ comment by ozymandias · 2017-11-20T17:14:02.205Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Most startup employees are not PR people, and "scheduled news appearance" is a relatively small fraction of what PR people do.

My husband works for Google and AFAICT their policy is "show up on time for important meetings, get your work done, otherwise we don't care." "On time" is apparently a function of how far away the meeting is from your desk, and since most meetings are maybe a minute's walk away you will be side-eyed if you are consistently more than a minute late. OTOH, if you have to travel and get stuck in traffic, you will not be side-eyed for showing up ten minutes late.

We Bay Areans are not, in fact, routinely getting fired from our jobs for unreliability.

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-20T18:16:48.912Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
My husband works for Google and AFAICT their policy is "show up on time for important meetings, get your work done, otherwise we don't care."

I am already aware of this, and I'm not sure why it appears as if I'm unaware of how things work at companies like Google? Given the distinction between categories I highlighted in the above comment:

There is a big difference between an employee who works semi-irregular hours and misses irrelevant meetings and one that goes completely off the grid without any warning when they are being relied upon to do a specific task.

Most startup employees are not PR people, and "scheduled news appearance" is a relatively small fraction of what PR people do.

I chose an infrequent but very clearcut scenario in order to function as a good example of someone being relied upon and dropping the ball. Pointing out that it is rare is fighting the hypothetical, like saying you wouldn't pull the lever in a trolley problem because it might get you arrested.

If you find this hypothetical unsuitable, perhaps one of the following would work better:

  • The head programmer on a team taking a spur of the moment vacation the week before the next software release deadline.
  • The sysadmin/whoever not returning phonecalls for a few days when a software bug locks out all users from the app.
  • The team lead who was meant to be giving a presentation to the CEO to show the new design/whatever decides to take a long lunch and is an hour late.
  • The CEO who repeatedly ducks calls from his investors because he is averse to explaining why quarterly growth metrics took a nosedive.
  • The new hire who reads the unlimited vacation spiel and decides to take a three month vacation post-induction so he can "take time to recharge in order to become more productive" on the employer's dime.

I'm not even saying one of these examples will get someone fired, just a repeated pattern of behaviour like this.

There is also the point that people who have these jobs know this on some level, and even if they are unreliable in social situations they do not behave like that when they don't think they can get away with it.

The point I'm making is there are situations where reliablity definitely does matter (e.g. commuity projects/voluteer run events), and a widespread norm of people behaving like it doesn't is greatly hindering the ability of those projects to operate.

Whether reliability matters socially is a little more open to dispute, and I'll grant that it is reasonable to have reached different conclusions, as my attempts to suggest it does are gestures in the direction of There Are Rules Here.

↑ comment by habryka (habryka4) · 2017-11-18T22:42:18.616Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Downvoted because this comment does just appear to derail into an irrelevant direction.

↑ comment by sarahconstantin · 2017-11-02T19:56:48.573Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I am a soon-to-be parent living in a group house and I think it's a workable solution that should be normalized more, especially in expensive cities.

You don't have as much space as a suburban nuclear family in a single-family home. But it is much easier to share childcare labor, get experience caring for children when you're not yet a parent, and support stay-at-home parents in a group house. (The last one because of fixed costs; it's more expensive for Bob to support Alice and Donald to support Carol than for Bob + Donald to support Alice + Carol.)

comment by Vaniver · 2017-11-03T03:06:26.710Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

First of all, I hope your project succeeds, and look forward to seeing what you produce.

I've long been skeptical of Berkeley as a hub--for years I stayed in Austin because it was cheap and had a tech industry and I was going to school there and I liked Texas; I only left for Berkeley because I got hired by MIRI. (Thankfully, the guy who took over running Austin's LW meetup group is doing a better job of it than I ever did, and it's growing.) So I'm sympathetic to the viewpoint that rationalists shouldn't all flock to Berkeley.

But I felt like most of your essay talking about how the community is failing, in Berkeley or in general, relied too much on the impressions of some specific people in a way that felt hard to engage with. Mostly due to lack of specificity; for example, when you make comparisons to the control group of rationality, there I have a specific sense of what you mean, and can engage about who you think our control group actually is. But when moving to Berkeley means"[s]omething is happening to them, although it isn’t particularly clear what," I don't know how to engage with that. Did it happen to me / is it happening to me? To know I'd have to know what you're trying to point at.

Replies from: azavoluk, gleec
↑ comment by azavoluk · 2017-11-07T03:00:28.158Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

" Thankfully, the guy who took over running Austin's LW meetup group is doing a better job of it than I ever did, and it's growing "

I appreciate the confidence, though I'm not entirely sure how much of that is stuff I did.

↑ comment by gleec · 2017-11-03T15:45:03.101Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
relied too much on the impressions of some specific people in a way that felt hard to engage with

I experience some of the problems Bendini discusses (in London rather than Berkeley) but I agree with this ^. So; data. Do any of the past surveys bear on the question of community feels, or geographical angst? (The mental health one does, but too indirectly.)

If not, this should be done. The burden needn't fall on Bendini, who has done this survey already, just informally and without the benefits of anonymity. I'll run it if people think it's worthwhile.

Qs:

  • Where are you?
  • How often do you interact IRL / online with rationalist peers?
  • How often would you like to?
  • Are salient characteristics about you underrepresented in your rat. peers?
  • Do you feel isolated or otherwise bad about this under-representation?
  • etc
Replies from: Benquo
↑ comment by Benquo · 2017-11-05T13:19:47.724Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Since I've heard about some confusion on this point, I want to clarify that I am not Bendini :) I know, there are so many Bens, it's hard to tell us apart, especially when we sometimes talk about similar things.

Replies from: Benito, gleec
↑ comment by Ben Pace (Benito) · 2017-11-05T17:49:21.942Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I am also not Bendini. No comment on whether I'm Benquo (okay I'm not).

↑ comment by gleec · 2017-11-07T22:26:57.305Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Fixed, pardon/thanks

comment by sarahconstantin · 2017-11-02T20:19:16.958Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I like this post and think it makes a lot of good points.

I think the failures of the community you list are mostly accurate, and best summed up by "if you have a thing to do, it's important not to be incompetent, and there's a lot of social pressure around here towards being incompetent."

I'm probably not betting on Kernel, though I think it would be great for some people, because I'm taking a more diversified strategy. I'm doing intellectual & technical growth through my job & side projects, and personal growth through my family. I'm not relying on the rationalist community (or, indeed, an offshoot) to provide social closeness, intellectual stimulation, and productive impact on the world. I'm relying on living in a world-class city for that. It's a lot lower risk than trusting a new founder.

If you want to hang out with competent people who will influence you for the better -- a lot of them are right here in the Bay Area, you just haven't met them yet.

Of course, the Bay Area is embedded in the US, and has its own culture, and is restricted by local laws. This is a lousy place to build a new civilization or a new culture. But it's a great place to start a discrete, useful project. This is where the money is. It may not be like this forever, but it sure looks like Silicon Valley is a good launchpad. (I'd be interested in learning more about China as a rival in innovation, but that's a big culture gap that I'm not well placed to cross just now.)

Replies from: sarahconstantin
↑ comment by sarahconstantin · 2017-11-03T00:27:49.957Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

For example, the Berkeley AI Research group is...in Berkeley. These are the people who brought you Caffe. "Nobody in the town of Berkeley accomplishes anything useful" is just...not the case, at all.

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-03T03:43:55.109Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I'm probably not betting on Kernel, though I think it would be great for some people, because I'm taking a more diversified strategy. I'm doing intellectual & technical growth through my job & side projects, and personal growth through my family. I'm not relying on the rationalist community (or, indeed, an offshoot) to provide social closeness, intellectual stimulation, and productive impact on the world. I'm relying on living in a world-class city for that. It's a lot lower risk than trusting a new founder.
If you want to hang out with competent people who will influence you for the better -- a lot of them are right here in the Bay Area, you just haven't met them yet.

The information that would have largely addressed these points never made it into the final essay, partially on structure, partially because you don't always know exactly which models people are already working with.

The way it looks from here is that Berkeley works pretty well for four niches:

  • people with six-figure tech jobs
  • people who run or prefer to work for VC backed startups
  • people with an not-for-profit cause that greatly benefits from face to face meeting with the above two groups (e.g. EA stuff, X-risk work)
  • people who are the financial dependants of the above three groups

Everyone else is basically only there because their friends are there or they never actually bothered to run the numbers before deciding to relocate.

I'm probably not betting on Kernel, though I think it would be great for some people, because I'm taking a more diversified strategy.

A more diversified strategy for you, sure, but as far as diversified strategies go for groups, if those groups contain people who aren't in the four niches listed, they are not best served by being in Berkeley.

It seems that the implication is that moving here would be putting all your eggs in a basket labelled "Kernel". It isn't. This location was picked because it had index-fund-like qualities. At the time of it's formal creation, it was the only project from the bunch of non-Berkeley ones that was set on a location that wouldn't require everyone who moved there to pack up and go home in the event of failure.

Of all the locations in the UK in terms of career paths and general prosperity, Manchester is firmly in second place.

Of all the locations that still have affordable housing, Manchester is undeniably number one.

the Berkeley AI Research group is...in Berkeley. These are the people who brought you Caffe. "Nobody in the town of Berkeley accomplishes anything useful" is just...not the case, at all.

That may have been the impression some people got of what I was saying, but I would be worth highlighting what I actually said in the (admittedly very long) essay:

For those of us on the outside, we are now dealing with the fact that our local communities were hollowed for nothing. That the mission, the instrumental craft could have been years further along by now had Berkeley not redirected people’s talents towards other aims.
I won’t deny there is important work being done in Berkeley, I’d even go as far to say there are some organizations such as MIRI that belong there. My claim, similar to Zvi’s, is that most individuals and rationalist-aligned organizations do not benefit from that location choice.

There also seems to be a massive crux/blindspot on what people seem to think the instrumental craft is. It seems I was reading between the lines a little differently to most but I don't think there is any part of the Sequences that implied developing instrumental craft meant "become a programmer and brute force your way through life problems by throwing money at them" and teaching others to do the same. Granted, it satisfices most things and allows you to deal with most problems while only posessing a very narrow set of skills, but this is only one system of Systemized Winning, and there definitely should be more of them.

Replies from: sarahconstantin
↑ comment by sarahconstantin · 2017-11-03T16:56:00.946Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

So, you're right that the Bay is not a great place unless you are (or are in a domestic partnership with) someone in or adjacent to the tech industry. The truth is that my husband and I would probably have moved here even if the rationalist community was highly concentrated in some other location, because we do work in tech startups. That's not true of people who moved to the Bay specifically for the community, and maybe they should move.

I wasn't trying to put down Manchester as a city; I don't know much about it, but I trust your judgment.

I'm unusual here, but I'm actually not that into rationalism in the sense of "the content of the Sequences"; I'm here for all the associated stuff that you're not crazy about. (The company of smart people, who have a lot in common with me, who want to do experimental science/tech and/or set up non-mainstream living arrangements.) You might say I'm more of a Bay Arean than a rationalist at this point. Reasoning well is a useful skill, but I'm beginning to suspect I'm worse than average rather than better than average at being reasonable, so I'm naturally not going to think it's a great idea for me to participate in a project to create a system of exceptional rationality.

I'd expect that if you're different from me in these respects -- not a techie or in love with Bay Area culture, but believe strongly that you can contribute to the "art of rationality" -- then Kernel is potentially a good choice, and I really do hope it succeeds.

comment by Benquo · 2017-11-05T14:06:45.817Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Overall I found this post difficult to digest, since the structure of the central argument isn't very explicit. I had to read it several times through to properly figure out what it was about. In the future, I strongly suggest splitting up posts like this into a few more compact posts focusing on comparatively homogenous subsets of the content.

I agree with a fair number of your criticisms, and think that trying things based on models is generally good. The basic critique that the SF Bay Area is made of cultural forces that are predictably going to divert large amounts of attention and other resources away from the Rationalist project, is a fair one. But my sense is that proposing solutions is slightly premature, for a couple of reasons.

First, we really don't have a common understanding the problem, until we understand from the inside why this all seemed like a good idea at the time. In my posts on EA and Quakerism I've been trying to articulate how simple trust in the basic liberal framework we live in can lead to falling into these sorts of cultural traps and having your efforts turned against you. While I can easily imagine being wrong on the details, I think this level of radical critique is going to be necessary if we're not simply going to fall into another version of the same trap again. I think this has implications not just for where and how we should be living, but our model of what rationality is and whether the "rationality training" paradigm is feasible at all.

For this reason, I think some of the criticisms in this post, and arguments for Kernel, while prima facie valid, are a bit too far downstream. For instance, it makes sense that we might want to live somewhere that doesn't require so many of us to work long hours for The Man, but we should be confused about why we didn't already notice this, pick up, and move. I don't think it's because the information about cost-of-living differences was simply unavailable.

Second, I think a lot of critiques like this presuppose the existence of a coherent "we". The problem, as I see it, is that the Rationality community is trying to do something sufficiently against the grain that it requires structured coordination, and hasn't invested much effort into being able to do that on the community level, because of the sorts of individualist assumptions I mentioned above. So, critiques are going to be most useful when structured in a way that catalyze the formation of the right kind of "we". I've been trying to do this on a comparatively small scale, with a discourse-first approach. Physical relocation seems like a thing that may eventually need to happen, but my sense is that it's premature, except where motivated by short-term needs.

Fundamentally, I think the Rationalist project as originally envisioned turns out not to work and we need to figure out, given that we live in that world, how to get what we want by other means. Defining that project seems really, really important, and it seems to me that it ought to be the core of any subsequent efforts.

Of course, it's fine to pursue multiple strategies towards this! And it's fine to invite people to move to your city before the sort of work I'm asking for is done; the Bay community surely does, and turnabout is fair play. People will self-select into the strategies they think are good.

Coordinating around object-level improvements is a really good idea, but the costs of relocation are quite high, and the costs of talking a bit more are quite low. For this reason I think your actual call to action - asking people to get in touch etc - is correct. But I'd like to see a more compact version of this post, focusing on the core beliefs or actions that you think are likely to separate the sort of people who should be in your project, from the ones who shouldn't. You don't have to make all the critiques in the same place.

Replies from: bendini, Chris_Leong
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-05T18:20:52.527Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I strongly suggest splitting up posts like this into a few more compact posts focusing on comparatively homogenous subsets of the content.

This was intentional, had I done this the first half would spread like wildfire and maybe 10% would read the second half, when really if you want to do something about this, even while staying in Berkeley, the second half is where the useful stuff is.

The thing about turnover could have been made into a standalone post, but it's near-useless when taken out of context

But my sense is that proposing solutions is slightly premature

fully laying the groundwork was and still is beyond my capabilities, I also have the strong intuition that there is little marginal utility in yet another meta-post. I mean, you can get something from them, but when most people are reading it for fun, those people will get little.

I've seen how little the previous discourse around the subject moved the needle, I felt the need to try something a little different.

There's also the issue that I'd have to try to explain the mistakes made that I wouldn't have made (because different intuitions lead to different errors) to people who were prone to said mistakes. And get enough attention towards my blogging that there was widespread common knowledge of the failure mechanisms. These are things I'm pretty confident I could not have done.

we should be confused about why we didn't already notice this, pick up, and move. I don't think it's because the information about cost-of-living differences was simply unavailable.

I don't think we did either, as if that was the limiting factor, spreadsheets would have already been created for this purpose. I think it's because there was little awareness of the non-financial impacts constrained finances have on people and an inability to do anything within the system as a lone individual, plus the crickets you get whenver you try to bring up these sort of object-level topics.*

*Excluding the past few days, which is the only time I've ever seen much attention being given to people talking about personal finance details in the many years I've been around. Finance talk is temporarily shiny, so people are engaging in discourse about it, it will not remain that way.

Coordinating around object-level improvements is a really good idea, but the costs of relocation are quite high, and the costs of talking a bit more are quite low.

Not necessarily, when you factor in oppertunity costs. Talking about things takes time, which depletes the momentum generated by a post like this, and once it is depleted you will have to push it from a new angle in order to overcome social frictions, regardless of if the new angle is actually better.

But I'd like to see a more compact version of this post, focusing on the core beliefs or actions that you think are likely to separate the sort of people who should be in your project, from the ones who shouldn't.

Given that writing costs about an order of magnitude more per word for me than it does for you, it's not in my resource budget. I can however provide a rough answer to the question

Positive traits I'd reccomend to join the project:

  • scientific curiosity, of the extent where you will stop group conversations to research the answer to a question asked that nobody present knows the answers for
  • desire for knowledge overwhelms emotional reaction to negative information
  • direct, no-bullshit communication preferences
  • having priorities that are more important than earning the most money
  • desire to build/make things that aren't presently rewarded by economic incentives
  • highly values deep personal connections
  • low time preference
  • object-level focus

"Negative" trats that I'd advise against moving here with: (but not necessarily avoiding collaboration)

  • Intolerance of Chan/shitpost culture (you don't have to like it, just not hate it)
  • Overly concerned with status/material wealth
  • Strong dislike of me despite agreeing that the project is valuable
  • A preference for believing anything that is untrue
  • Teetotaler (Alcohol and the rituals around it has been a vital bonding tool for a millenia)
  • Lives day to day and felt "this project had a fair bit of buzz so why not?"
↑ comment by Chris_Leong · 2017-12-11T11:51:23.750Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"Fundamentally, I think the Rationalist project as originally envisioned turns out not to work and we need to figure out, given that we live in that world, how to get what we want by other means. Defining that project seems really, really important, and it seems to me that it ought to be the core of any subsequent efforts." - Why not?

comment by KPier · 2017-11-04T03:36:47.748Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I wrote a post listing reasons why I would not move to Manchester. Since writing it I've gotten more confident about the 'bad culture fit' conclusion by reading bendini's blog. I would also add that the part of the community with the best gender ratio (rationalist tumblr) and the adjacent community with the best gender ratio (Alicorn's fan community) are also the ones with the norms that the founders of this project seem to find most objectionable, and the ones who seem to be the worst culture fit for the project. I think things like 'culture fit with existing parts of the community that are gender-balanced' end up predicting gender ratio much more than degree of prioritization of attracting women, so I predict Manchester will have significantly (10% or greater) worse gender balance than the Bay in five years, and less strongly expect it to have worse gender balance than the community as a whole.

Replies from: bendini, c0rw1n
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-04T07:56:57.783Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I'd rather not lose this exchange to Tumblr's archiving system, so I'll respond to relevent bits here:

I like the people I work with in the Bay. I and most of my social circle work at startups, and there are genuinely a lot of really nice things about working at startups (flexibility, meaningful work, knowing everyone in the company, lack of bureaucracy) which make people willing to take a major paycut compared to big tech companies to work at one. Moving to Manchester would involve a major paycut and not being able to work at a startup, as far as I can tell.
I would definitely lose much, much more in prospective earnings than I would gain in reduced cost of living.

Startups are also a thing here too, just obviously not to the same extent that they are in the startup capital of the world. Good data on startups is very hard to find, but in absolute numbers Manchester is approximately second only to London in the UK.

It is very much true that if you are renting a room in a grouphouse, the pay cut you take here will not be made up for by the significantly reduced cost of living, this does however start to change if you want to buy property (you can buy 3 bedroom houses on the street behind ours, a few miles from downtown, for around £125k) have kids or retire early in a place with rationalists nearby. If people get the data I've been requesting then I should be able to work out exactly how it compares and at which point someone would be better off here.

I like living a short plane flight from my family. If I lived halfway around the world I would almost never see them, which is a significant cost to me now and would be more significant to me if I had children.

Fair point, and something to think about for anyone with ties in the UK/EU

It makes sense that the sort of people who would decide to found a community hub in the cheapest English-speaking location they could find would be extremely frugal people. However, I find extreme frugality stressful

It's worth pointing out that the main frugality nerd in this project is me, everyone else ranges from "unironically premium mediocre" to "simple tastes but doesn't think too strategically about it"

Although everyone has the option to benefit from the fact that my brain treats optimizing spending for X and Y constraints as a game.

Also food is really quite cheap here, partually because supermarkets produce their own branded stuff and it is actually decent quality, so the £60/month you are horrified by is not ramen and water but beef/chicken/pork, butter/olive oil, bread and a small but adequate serving of fruits and vegetables. I wouldn't reccomend it, but you can meet your energy and protein needs with homemade fried chicken for only £25/month.

The writeup by the people who chose Manchester on the benefits of Manchester includes nothing about public transit and some implications that ‘the house shares a car’ is a significant component of transit plans. It seems plausible that in Manchester I would need to drive to get places somewhat frequently. I hate driving. Living anywhere where I need to drive to get around is an absolute dealbreaker.

It might not be mentioned in the doc, but that's because it was written as part of the now-defunct Accelerator project, and its main goal was to convince its leader, Eric Bruylant (yes, that one), not to build a rationalist cult compound in rural Spain. It is however given a nod in this essay, ctrl+f public transport to find it.

Manchester has a much quicker, cheaper and more frequently running public transport system than Berkeley on an mile to mile basis. Hell, in most cases, it's on par with the speed and frequency available from Brooklyn to Manhattan. Go have a play around on Google maps and tell me what you find.

For the ~2.5 hours it takes you to get from Berkeley to San Jose, you can make the 150 mile journey from Manchester to London. (When HS2 arrives, that will be cut down to just over 1 hour)

I currently have free healthcare (through my parents until I’m 26). The writeup claims that healthcare in the UK for Americans is cheaper than U.S. healthcare, but if they’re comparing to U.S. open market healthcare and missing that most Americans do not buy health care on the open market, “cheaper than U.S. healthcare” could still be really expensive. I can’t find numbers for this.

It turns out this is better than I originally thought. People on six month tourist visas still need insurance of an unknown but probably reasonable cost (Update: £60/month according to one commenter) however people on work visas pay just £200 per year for full access to the NHS, permanent residents pay absolutely nothing regardless of their country of origin. (Apparently its also pretty good compared with the US system, too)

I vaguely suspect from the writeup that I would be a bad culture fit. In particular, they seem to really hate the community in the Bay. It seems to me that ‘the Bay community but affordable’ is a great thing to aim for, and they seem to be instead conceiving of their project as “succeed where the Bay failed” and so I doubt we share priorities. They don’t seem to consider effective altruism a priority, which is the most important thing about the rationalist community to me by far.

You probably aren't the ideal culture fit, which is fair. Although I'd point out most people think I'm a lot more agreeable in person, which is relevant as that would be the side of me you'd be dealing with.

As for Effective Altruism being a priority, it isn't for me personally, given my aesthetic aversion to anything that makes me look like a good person. However, there are 2/5 people with GWWC pledges in this house and groundwork being laid to restart the defunct Manchester University EA chapter by Greg and some other locals.

Unfortunately, there's only so many things that we can do with the limited resources we have at the moment.

I predict Manchester will have significantly (10% or greater) worse gender balance than the Bay in five years

First point: What is the gender balance of the Berkeley rationalist community?

This depends entirely on how you measure it. If I was to throw all other goals under the bus for the sake of proving you wrong, I'm pretty sure I could find enough women to nod along to a watered down version. If instead we're going for rationalist Rationalists then a lot of the fandom people wouldn't make the cut and I suspect if we managed to outdo tech, we would be beating The Bay.

Obviously I'm not going to do that, but if we are talking about mission-focused rationalists and excluding the ones that hang around in mostly EA circles, we may actually do better.

Replies from: KPier, Bound_up
↑ comment by KPier · 2017-11-04T23:24:28.219Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Thanks for answering this. It sounds like the things in the 'maybe concerns, insufficient info' categories are largely not concerns, which is encouraging. I'd be happy to privately contribute salary and CoL numbers to someone's effort to figure out how much people would save.

https://angel.co/manchester/jobs is a little discouraging; there are Lead Java Developer roles listed for £30-50k , no equity which would pay $150,000-$180,000 base in SF and might well see more than $300k in total compensation. Even if you did want to buy a house, which again Bay rationalists largely just don't, that means a house costs three-four years' salary in both cases and in one case you own a million-dollar property which will (unfortunately for the city) probably appreciate significantly and in another you own a £125k property not expected to appreciate any. It might be better to target people who want to retire early to Manchester and people not in tech.

I don't think any amount of gender-related recruiting is more predictive of gender balance than 'how similar is this to the parts of the community which have gender balance'? So it actually would surprise me if, even throwing everything under the bus to achieve this goal, it worked. Of course, I'd say a thriving Manchester community with a lousy gender ratio would still be an amazing accomplishment. A reasonable way to estimate gender balance in the Bay might be "count at Solstice, excluding anyone who flew in for Solstice"? (On the Facebook page so far, of the 29 people attending 12 are women, but Facebook pages are very noisy estimates of attendance and the attendance will be an order of magnitude higher than that, so I won't put that much weight on that.)

Come to think of it, you've got an uphill battle on gender ratios for another reason, which is that women are on average less likely to do weird things, less likely to be underemployed in their twenties, and likelier to have close social ties preventing moving. I still am confident in my prediction but this general factor might be a stronger contributor than culture-specific ones.

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-05T03:24:36.347Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I'd be happy to privately contribute salary and CoL numbers to someone's effort to figure out how much people would save.

Thank you. LW 2.0 message system doesn't seem to be working properly, so I have sent a facebook request

https://angel.co/manchester/jobs is a little discouraging; there are Lead Java Developer roles listed for £30-50k , no equity which would pay $150,000-$180,000 base in SF and might well see more than $300k in total compensation.

That might be exaggerating the compensation gap just a little bit. The first senior software engineering position on that list offers £57k-£64k and 2-5% equity. (Also $300k annual compensation would put someone into the top 1% of all US adults, this is not your typical scenario. Even among rationalists, the median non-student income is $75000)

Also, hold on, Silicon Valley hasn't seceded from the US. (Yet.) That $300k after taxes comes out to $185k (£141.5k), as opposed to £60k which comes out to £42.5k here ($55.5k). If we remove only the rent from the living expenses we have around $167k and £39k. If the houses are $1m and £125k respectively then you can buy a house there in 6 years, whereas here it would only take 3.2 years. (And no, houses are not meant to be offloaded to a greater fool when it comes time to sell. Although houses in the area we are buying are rising at ~5%/year due to the central location)

It might be better to target people who want to retire early to Manchester and people not in tech.

This is basically the general point, yes?

The opening line to the economics section:

Not to put too fine a point on it, but basing a community that’s not focused on maximising gross income in the most expensive city in North America doesn’t strike me as particularly rational.

Pointing out that "well actually, if you are a super-talented software dev you can make much more money in SF" is, well, not even wrong.

If all the talk about optimizing for human flourishing didn't make it clear to people, perhaps the general outlook can be approximated by reading SSC Gives A Graduation Speech.

One of the underlying ideas for the project is the cost of living is low enough that you can generate your own basic income.

When you significantly reduce financial constrants, you can do a lot more things. A few that come to mind:

  • writing open-source software that benefits the world but can't be made into a profitable buisness model
  • full-time blogging on a $1000 a month patreon fanbase
  • raising five children with a single breadwinner
  • having 10 partners and enough time to see them all regularly
  • living comfortably off part time work without being a programmer
  • having wild parties three nights a week
  • doing the starving artist thing without actually starving
  • making contributions in any field that doesn't require more than $20k equipment (e.g. math)
  • writing/systemizing rationality material on a grand scale
  • seeing a world in a grain of sand and a heaven in a wild flower

You basically can live like money doesn't matter at a lot lower threshholds.

A reasonable way to estimate gender balance in the Bay might be "count at Solstice, excluding anyone who flew in for Solstice"? (On the Facebook page so far, of the 29 people attending 12 are women, but Facebook pages are very noisy estimates of attendance and the attendance will be an order of magnitude higher than that, so I won't put that much weight on that.)

Accurate information would be good, I can proxy it from second hand anecdotes too. I'm just hesistant to relying on it for anything that matters.

Come to think of it, you've got an uphill battle on gender ratios for another reason, which is that women are on average less likely to do weird things, less likely to be underemployed in their twenties, and likelier to have close social ties preventing moving. I still am confident in my prediction but this general factor might be a stronger contributor than culture-specific ones.

Which is why we aren't trying to bridge the gap by flying them across the Atlantic and instead trying to find them right here, and increasing the conversion rate by omitting the parts that don't make people more rational but nonetheless make women disproportionately feel like "this isn't for me".

Also, dear god, I'm probably the last person that should be running this if the goal is to recruit well-heeled Ivy grad women. But again, that isn't what we're trying to do here. I mean, if it strikes the fancy of a few, that's great, but it isn't our comparative advantage. We can't be everything to everyone.

↑ comment by Bound_up · 2017-11-04T19:39:23.690Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

According to worldnomads.com, my healthcare as a US citizen in the UK would be about $70 a month, or 60ish pounds, if I had to guess

↑ comment by c0rw1n · 2017-11-04T04:58:11.134Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

welp, 2/4 current residents and the next one planned to come there are trans women so um, what gender ratio issue again?

Replies from: KPier
↑ comment by KPier · 2017-11-04T05:03:35.915Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Are you disagreeing with my prediction? I'd be happy to bet on it and learning that two of the four initial residents are trans women does not change it.

comment by Keller · 2017-11-02T18:23:56.808Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It may be useful to note that a regional accent, in the UK, is much more indicative of a working class background than it is in the US.

Replies from: Alces
↑ comment by Alces · 2017-11-02T20:03:34.358Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Hm, I had the opposite impression.

Replies from: Benito
↑ comment by Ben Pace (Benito) · 2017-11-02T21:26:54.266Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

As a Brit who grew up in Manchester, Keller's impression fits my own. If I think about the sorts of roles that people on tv play, be they comedians or newscasters, people with Welsh/Northern/Scottish/Irish/Liverpuddlian/Mancunian/Yorkshire accents are rarely high status, only folks who have 'British' accents and you can't really place them are high status (also Londoners). (And status is a strong proxy for class.)

#Bikeshedding

Replies from: thisheavenlyconjugation
↑ comment by thisheavenlyconjugation · 2017-11-03T21:02:18.708Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think it depends on the accent. There are plenty of high status/upper class people with national (Scottish, Welsh, Irish) or London/West Country accents -- even pretty thick ones. On the other hand, a heavy Northern/Midlands accent is pretty indicative of a lower class background.

comment by habryka (habryka4) · 2017-11-02T07:13:53.609Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Alas! While I do actually deeply appreciate this massive post and think that a lot of valuable effort went into it, we have banned discussion primarily about the community from the frontpage until we have a community tag that can by default be hidden to new users.

I would be happy for you to repost this back to the frontpage as soon as we have a community tag in a few weeks (we need to develop a whole tagging system first), but until then, this will be moved to your personal page.

comment by Kaj_Sotala · 2017-11-10T08:03:41.307Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
This could go some way to explaining why CFAR, prior to its AI pivot, never really managed to produce much applied rationality. Doing so would have required going back to the drawing board and completely overhauling the curriculum, figuring out how to teach writing instead of literary criticism.

Curious as to what makes you say this. My feeling, from having been to a CFAR workshop, using their techniques afterwards, and following the stuff that they've been developing after I was with them, is that CFAR has been very successful at developing a lot of applied rationality.

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-12T06:46:40.883Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

There seems to be a difference of opinion on what applied rationality means. In my view, CFAR is at least one step removed from helping you be more rational at life. In a sense, CFAR is the doctor who gives you the antidepressants which you take to improve your own life, rather than the people who improve your life directly - the tools that let you make your own tools.

There's no law of the universe saying if you teach someone literary critisism instead of writing it won't improve their writing skills. The concerns are around how effective it is and whether this will end up causing the curriculum to diverge with reality futher, due to being harder to measure output.

Then there is also the question of bias. There is no control group, no objective measurement, you likely paid thousands of dollars to attend and it was run by people you respect, this is hardly the standard practice of a scientific experiment.

Replies from: Kaj_Sotala
↑ comment by Kaj_Sotala · 2017-11-14T07:02:11.866Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
In my view, CFAR is at least one step removed from helping you be more rational at life. In a sense, CFAR is the doctor who gives you the antidepressants which you take to improve your own life, rather than the people who improve your life directly.

Not sure what "improving your life directly" would mean as a rationality technique: if a doctor gives you antidepressants and those make you happier, then that doctor has improved your life directly. (this was very much my own experience of antidepressants, btw: that they pretty much saved my life directly) Unless we're talking about something like "seeing someone dying of hunger on the street and giving them a safe place to stay" where you directly change someone's environment, all life-improvement ultimately has to be done by the person themselves. Even therapists aren't improving your life directly, they are working with you to help you improve your life (granted, there is a stereotype of therapy being something where you can just let someone else fix you, but that's a misconception; the therapist gives you the tools and then supports you along until you've internalized them and no longer need external support, just as CFAR tries to do).

If your position is that "CFAR techniques haven't been shown to be useful beyond the point of a reasonable doubt", then that is a sensible position to have.

However, pretty much the same criticisms could also be applied to the benefits of reading rationalist stuff in general. Yet you seem to put a substantial probability on the possibility of things like the Sequences actually being useful for people; if they weren't, then presumably there would be no point in trying to intentionally build a "rationalist community".

To me, it looks like while the evidence for the usefulness of both the Sequences and CFAR is shaky, the evidence for CFAR's usefulness is stronger. CFAR at least did a study that attempted to address the confounding factors. While someone can reasonably be skeptical about their arguments for why they think some useful information can still be squeezed out of the study despite the kinds of issues that you mention, this is still more evidence than we have for the usefulness of any other rationalist stuff.

Thus it seems to me to be inconsistent to think that 1) we should be putting an effort into building a rationality community, but that 2) CFAR's stuff is probably useless, given that the evidence for CFAR seems stronger than the evidence for a rationality community in particular being useful.

comment by whpearson · 2017-11-02T10:54:25.298Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Hi. Can you give a one line pitch for the kernal project? For example I would characterise my understanding of Benquo's project as something a long the lines of "Productivity, through truth-seeking and radical integrity".

My own project might be "More autonomy for everyone, through sharing open technology".

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-02T19:08:23.631Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I've struggled to come up with a one liner that encapsulates enough meaning to be worthwhile having one. Judging by those two examples, you have also struggled to pack enough specific information in to make it more than just a mantra.

I once proposed this as a joke:

"Kernel is a social technology startup. Uber, but for human flourishing"

Replies from: whpearson
↑ comment by whpearson · 2017-11-02T19:56:27.438Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Heh, I wouldn't use uber, nowadays, in case someone takes you seriously ;). I think I'm still having trouble visualising what it would be like to be part of your community.

As you like your startup analogy, I feel compelled to ask, "What is your plan to scale?"

Replies from: bendini, c0rw1n
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-04T00:33:54.568Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
I think I'm still having trouble visualising what it would be like to be part of your community.

In terms of living under my iron fist, I'm aiming to occuply a position thats more like "older brother" than "Big Brother". Duncan's approach of middleschool teacher turned military instructor doesn't really appeal to me. I'm trying to balance the ability to have banter as peers while being able to take charge when the situation calls for it, and so far there have been very few problems with that to my knowledge.

A few features that set us apart is that we've mostly made peace with the idea that things are going to be a work in progress, and we aren't saying "we can deliver the goods 100% of the time" but "we're giving things a shot, and if things work, great, and if not, we all still learn something" as such, we've been prepared to do things like announce n=1 interventions that we think might work, but won't necessarily, and we aren't too worried about looking informal and cobbled together, as that's essentially what we are at the moment. (e.g. this amazingly kludged but still verifiable way to pre-register an experiment prior to a central rationalist database existing for doing so)

As you like your startup analogy, I feel compelled to ask, "What is your plan to scale?"

The startup analogy is appropriate in some places, but not others. When scaling something that has almost zero marginal cost of production, you can scale exponentially. Offline communities have much lower returns to scale (nor do we need to scale. We aren't aiming for an IPO, going beyond 1000 "users" is of little utility to us)

In terms of the logistics of scaling, a house is currently in the process of being bought, and is intended to serve as a social hub, with rented grouphouses surrounding it, as this arrangement allows us to make the most efficient use of the capital available to us.

Replies from: whpearson
↑ comment by whpearson · 2017-11-04T11:49:06.429Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think scale in this case would be, "spread the knowledge you have acquired so that other people can replicate it" rather than physically scale the number of people in the houses. So the equivalent of franchise scaling, but fun. I hope you see the utility in having other sets of people trying similar things and contributing to a shared knowledge base (such as the experiment database you mentioned).

↑ comment by c0rw1n · 2017-11-03T23:40:33.181Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Well so far it's ... a group house; with long late night conversations, also running self-experiments (currently measuring results of a low-carb diet), and organizing the local monthly rationalist meetup.

We are developing social tech solutions such as a database of competing access needs and a formal system for dealing with house logistics.

comment by alwhite · 2017-11-09T16:46:48.802Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

After digesting this a bit, I think I come away with the idea that the internet is bad for creating change in people and that the systemized winning training has to happen on the personal, real-life level.

Is there a function that a website like this can serve if it can't create change?

What would you turn this forum into to be maximally beneficial towards your change?

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-11T05:56:27.408Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

LW2.0 in its current form isn't ideal for creating measurable change in people on the object level, but if it promotes people to read more of the rationality material that isn't currently popular blog posts, that's a force for good.

If I was in charge, I'd divide the site up into cause areas and have things be tagged for which cause area they have relevance to. Possible categories:

  1. Xrisk
  2. Non-Xrisk EA
  3. Craft development
  4. Community meta
  5. Meta insights
  6. Otherwise interesting posts

This would allow multiple cause areas to benefit from a shared audience and mitigate most of the stepping on each other's toes you get when each cause area is competing for dominance over the feed.

I'd also have more focus on wiki-like information distribution. Currently there is little effort being put into wikis and little status awarded for contributing to them, so they are currently inferior to blog posts written by a single author at a specific moment in time, but it doesn't have to stay that way.

Replies from: c0rw1n, Chris_Leong
↑ comment by c0rw1n · 2017-11-11T09:12:06.871Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I think the lesswrong wiki was supposed to be that repository of the interesting/important things that were posted to the community blog.

It could be a good idea to make a wiki in lw2.0 and award site karma to people contributing to it.

Replies from: vedrfolnir, Vaniver
↑ comment by vedrfolnir · 2017-11-15T10:45:07.810Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Right -- wikis and blogs have different uses. Blogs (or magazines, or letters...) are for hashing things out; wikis (or books, or journals [although journals can do both]...) are for writing things up once they've been hashed out. This is useful to avoid the "Facebook search problem", which IMO hasn't been getting as much attention as it should, especially given that it was one of the reasons listed for why LW ought to be revived:

>The first bottleneck for our community, and the biggest I think, is the ability to build common knowledge. On facebook, I can read an excellent and insightful discussion, yet one week later I forgot it. Even if I remember it, I don’t link to the facebook post (because linking to facebook posts/comments is hard) and it doesn’t have a title so I don’t casually refer to it in discussion with friends. On facebook, ideas don’t get archived and built upon, they get discussed and forgotten. To put this another way, the reason we cannot build on the best ideas this community had over the last five years, is because we don’t know what they are. There’s only fragments of memories of facebook discussions which maybe some other people remember. We have the sequences, and there’s no way to build on them together as a community, and thus there is stagnation.

One possible solution to the problem that awarding status for wiki edits is hard would be to abandon the wiki model entirely, in favor of a curated encyclopedia model: instead of waiting around for someone to write up X, you'd have curators (status!) who can ask someone who understands X to write (status!) the encyclopedia page on X.

What do you do if their writeup is controversial or could be built upon? Well, that's an implementation detail. Maybe a comments page? How do actually-existing curated encyclopedias handle that?

↑ comment by Vaniver · 2017-11-11T15:47:38.465Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
It could be a good idea to make a wiki in lw2.0 and award site karma to people contributing to it.

Per edit, per character, based on karma changes to a post after they edited it? It seems really hard to find a method of rewarding people for edits that isn't easily gameable or rely on deep taste. (You could have editors vote on edits, but you're not going to get many of those votes relative to the number of readers that might vote on articles, for example.)

Replies from: c0rw1n
↑ comment by c0rw1n · 2017-11-11T16:23:43.161Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I'm thinking of something like a section on the main lesserwrong.com page showing the latest edits to the wiki, so that the users of the site could see them and choose to go look at whether what changed in the article is worth points.

↑ comment by Chris_Leong · 2017-12-11T11:56:20.394Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

There already is a seperate EA forum.

comment by skybrian · 2017-11-07T03:55:58.303Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

From an outside (but sympathetic) perspective, seems like this post would have been better if you started out with "Why we're starting a new rationalist community in Manchester" and took it from there? As it is, I wonder how many people made it to the end.

comment by tcheasdfjkl · 2017-11-07T06:06:41.893Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

One thing I've seen noted elsewhere and not here, re: hub location and politics:

You note that Berkeley is exceedingly "politically correct" and count this as a negative, and you are indeed pointing to a real and negative thing, but there's another side to this. Every place has some dominant political culture and norms. The Bay Area has an unusually left-leaning political culture, more so than almost any other place in the U.S. This on the one hand gets you Berkeley's riots, and on the other hand gets you (for example) more queer/trans acceptance than anywhere else in the U.S., more queer/trans/kink/poly events & resources - which is really important for a lot of people in this community. (I would also argue that it's a very good thing that this community's norms are very accommodating of queerness/transness/kink/poly, though I'm not sure if that's a consequence of being in the Bay.)

Being in a right-leaning place would probably not be better, it would be a different kind of ambient political pull in a different direction. Being in a more politically divided/centrist place might be better in some ways, but it would also be less full of queer community and resources and events, and possibly less accepting too. So I think the political ambiance of the Bay really pulls in both directions here.

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-11T06:27:14.073Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
The Bay Area has an unusually left-leaning political culture, more so than almost any other place in the U.S. This on the one hand gets you Berkeley's riots, and on the other hand gets you (for example) more queer/trans acceptance than anywhere else in the U.S.
Being in a more politically divided/centrist place might be better in some ways, but it would also be less full of queer community and resources and events, and possibly less accepting too.

This is a very US-centric perspective. That dynamic is just not how it works over here. We don't have a bible belt and most people have been atheist for two generations now. There's a reason Richard Dawkins doesn't preach here.

Manchester has the third highest LGBT percentage after Brighton and London, according to the measures I can find. As such, there are plenty of queer/trans/kink/poly events & resources.

Arguably Manchester is better than the Bay Area for this in some regards e.g. harassment on public transit, which is particularly relevant for nonwhite trans people who don't pass very well.

comment by jefftk (jkaufman) · 2017-11-04T21:10:02.848Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Insufficient archiving of this incident, due to an underappreciation of the value in doing so. While writing this I had a hard time actually finding things I had previously read. Googling "Gleb Tsipursky lesswrong" doesn’t return any direct accounts of bad behaviour, you have to go digging for it. The right to be forgotten has its merits, but it isn’t meant to be applied when people are still doing the thing that got them in trouble in the first place.

I think maybe Concerns With Intentional Insights is what you were looking for?

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-05T01:44:06.232Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

This is actually linked by the text "for it"

I will edit this and include more words in the hyperlink, the irony was unintentional.

Replies from: jkaufman
↑ comment by jefftk (jkaufman) · 2017-11-16T17:45:57.932Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Ah, the problem is the link only appears if you hover over it. Filed a bug: https://github.com/Discordius/Lesswrong2/issues/289

comment by namespace (ingres) · 2017-11-02T05:40:48.844Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

"But when the first settlers came to the Hill Country, no one was calling them 'victims', least of all themselves. If someone had told them the truth, in fact, they might not have listened. For the trap was baited well. Who, entering this land after a rainy April, when 'the springs are flowing, the streams are rushing, the live oaks spread green canopies, and the field flowers wave in widespread beauty,' would believe it was not in a 'less humid' but an 'arid' zone? Moreover, as to the adequacy of the rainfall, the evidence of the settlers' own eyes was often misleading, for one aspect of the trap was especially convincing -- and especially cruel. Meteorologists would later conclude that rainfall over the entire Edwards Plateau is characterized by the most irregular and dramatic cycles.

.  .  .

The first settlers did not realize they were crossing a significant line. They came into the new land blithely. After all those years in which they had feared their fate was poverty, they saw at last the glimmerings of a new hope. But in reality, from the moment they first decided to settle in this new land, their fate was sealed. Dreaming of cotton and cattle kingdoms, or merely of lush fields of corn and wheat, they went back for their families and brought them in, not knowing that they were bringing them into a land which would adequately support neither cattle nor cotton -- nor even corn or wheat. Fleeing the crop lien and the furnishing merchant, hundreds of thousands of Southerners came to Texas. Of all those hundreds of thousands, few had come as far as these men who came to the Hill Country. And they had come too far.

.  .  .

And when, in the twentieth century, meteorologists began charting isohyets, they would draw the crucial thirty-inch isohyet along the 98th meridian--almost exactly the border of the hill country. At the very moment in which settlers entered that country in pursuit of their dream, they unknowingly crossed a line which made the realization of that dream impossible. And since rainfall diminishes quite rapidly westward, with every step they took into the Hill Country, the dream became more impossible still." - Robert. A. Caro. The Years Of Lyndon B. Johnson, Vol. 1, The Path To Power.

This is how I've felt about the Bay Area for a while, and can independently confirm the sudden disappearance into the ether of anyone who moves there.

Replies from: ozymandias
↑ comment by ozymandias · 2017-11-03T15:05:08.543Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

It seems like there are a lot of noncreepy explanations for why Berkeley residents might post less online, most notably that they might be using their social energy on more fulfilling in-person interactions.

comment by ChristianKl · 2018-01-04T03:05:33.666Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

When it comes to Gleb, I don't think the problem was that he didn't changed his behavior at all. One example of behavior change was that Gleb actually started giving drafts of posts he published to other people to get the worst problems from appearing in the published version.

The problem was a lot more about the point from his completely different idea about what should be done where given him feedback to change particular behaviors was not enough even when Gleb integrate.

The right to be forgotten has its merits, but it isn’t meant to be applied when people are still doing the thing that got them in trouble in the first place.

I don't think it's actually true that there no hit. At the fifth place you find https://www.jefftk.com/p/conversation-with-gleb-of-intentional-insights which is on of the major discussions about Gleb's misdeeds. As far as archiving Facebook discussion goes I thinkg JeffK is doing a fantastic job.

You don't find the EAForum article by seeking with LessWrong in the title and there some argument that the article should have beeen crossposted to LessWrong as well but I don't think it's a big issue that it hasn't. I don't see "not crossposting" as granting someone the right to be forgotten.

As far as I understand at the end of Gleb's interaction with us one of our key demands was that he stops associating with us by posting his content to LessWrong/EAForum/Various Facebook groups. I remember having to tell him off one time after the EAForum article was published on LW but after that point he accepted that his articles aren't wellcome in any form.

I haven't seen any post from him lately in any such venues, so I don't consider him doing the things that got in in trouble in the first place. On the Intentional Insight page there are a bunch of mainstream media logo he uses to establish his credibility and none of our logos.

comment by namespace (ingres) · 2017-11-05T06:14:29.045Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

Hi Ben,

I've also been systematically thinking about research into effective groups. (Rather than 'group rationality', as though groups were some kind of special case of individual effectiveness.)

I'd prefer not to discuss things in a public forum, and as you noted the private message system is totally nonfunctional.

Feel free to email me at jd@fortforecast.com for more info.

comment by Regex · 2017-11-03T13:58:45.915Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The Origin Project is also working on the same general problems, and looking to grow. You don't have to move anywhere, and you can get started right now.


https://hivewired.wordpress.com/2017/09/13/an-introduction-to-origin/


We've been working for the last few months on building out a cultural framework that can be used wherever you are, and just with the people around you. To build a sense of community and meaningful interactions.


But we're not there yet. We're too few.


Come as you are.

Replies from: Chris_Leong, vedrfolnir
↑ comment by Chris_Leong · 2017-12-11T11:57:24.932Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

What group of people are involved in the origin project?

↑ comment by vedrfolnir · 2017-11-16T21:03:25.503Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I'm not sure I quite understand the goal here. Is the goal to form a community, to draft an Ordnung (in the Amish sense) that communities can use, both, or neither?

comment by mike_hawke · 2023-12-12T23:37:35.924Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

The two following claims jumped out at me.

Through a combination of social anxiety, low empathy, poor time management and an inability to anticipate their future selves’ behaviour, people flake on plans they have previously agreed to.

 

Instead of granting permission for people to tell them harsh but constructive things about their behaviours, they must either tolerate them forever, or discretely ostracise them.

What once could have been mostly addressed with a few months of uncomfortable mentoring now becomes, if they can’t solve the problem independently, a near incurable social leprosy that confines them to the outskirts of any functional community they wish to be a part of.


I think the flakiness and the disruptive behaviors may be importantly related. The less enjoyable you are to be around, the more people will flake on you. The omnipresent fog over everyone's calendar allows plausible deniability, so that exclusion can be done less explicitly or harshly. 

Having your plans with a close friend get delayed or canceled is the price of rarely having to see that other acquaintance who's kind of offputting, without needing any uncomfortable conversations. It's not happening consciously, but it is predictable and seemingly systematic.

I won't say that this tradeoff is optimal. I'm just saying that the flakiness may be a load-bearing bug. Meanwhile, some places are instead known for widespread surliness and petty conflict, even between friends. On my hypothesis, that bug would be bearing the same kind of load.

comment by PDV · 2017-11-03T04:55:31.207Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I see no value in attempting to change the demographics, and much potential harm in diluting the core message to appeal to a broader audience.

I have similar objections to most of your points, but I find your general attitude both oblivious and rage-inducing to engage with and so nothing else I wrote was high-quality.

Replies from: bendini
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-03T17:17:13.360Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
Throw everything we have at drastically altering our demographic makeup
If the tech industry is anything to go by, this is almost certain to fail. Even if it did succeed, there is a good chance the community ceases to be a place where most of us would want to stay.

This was noted, for the record

comment by Chris_Leong · 2017-11-02T14:30:24.806Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I don't agree with all your criticisms, but I've very excited to see this project as, regardless of how it turns out, I expect that it will end up teaching the community a lot.

comment by Neuroff · 2017-11-02T06:35:57.665Z · LW(p) · GW(p)
You need to have a strategy in place for dealing with MOPs before you are overrun.

I agree with this statement, but I also am interested in how you plan on dealing with Sociopaths, in the Geeks, MOPs, Sociopaths model. Or at least filtering for the ones who actually Get It, versus the ones looking to opportunistically score resources.

MIRI seems to be a particularly well-tended garden because it's led primarily by Geeks, with Sociopath skill sets. They're not, as in the default case, Geek-sympathizing Sociopaths.

Could you speak to your sense of how the model applies to this particular community? I'm interested in finding crux points.

Replies from: bendini, c0rw1n
↑ comment by Bendini (bendini) · 2017-11-02T07:18:12.267Z · LW(p) · GW(p)

I plan to deal with sociopaths the same way I deal with potential car theives - by hiding valuables out of sight. Sociopaths are mostly oppertunistic, you can prevent maybe 95% of problems in this area simply by not giving them oppertunities to exploit.

A healthy amount of distrust for everyone and everything also alerts you to issues before people become embedded and expelling them would cause major community tensions.

I also make heavy use of lime metrics, some of which I've tested on previous sociopaths I knew.

comment by Joe Mathew · 2021-09-09T19:34:04.797Z · LW(p) · GW(p)