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Right, those words definitely seem more accurate to me!
It is the case that Bryce is, ostensibly, just trying to help Ash fulfill their terminal goals while being healthier. The problem is that Bryce presumes that of the available action space, ice cream is fungible for something else that is healthier, and does not listen when Ash reasserts that ice cream itself is the thing they want.
Just because it is a safe bet that Ash will share the value/desire for good health does not mean Ash must prioritize good health in every action they take.
I just donated $1,000. This is not a minor amount for me, and I almost just donated $10 as suggested in Shoshannah's comment, but I knew I could donate that much without thought or effort, and I wanted to really put at least some effort into this, after seeing how much obvious effort Oliver and others at Lesswrong have been putting in.
My decision process was as follows:
First, I dealt with my risk aversion/loss aversion/flinch response to giving large sums of money away. This took a couple minutes, much faster than it used to be thanks to things like my Season of Wealth a couple years ago, but felt like a mildly sharp object jiggling around in my chest until I smoothed it out with reminders of how much money I make these days compared to the relatively poor upbringing I had and the not-particularly-high salary I made for the first ~decade of my adult life.
Second, I thought of how much I value Lesswrong and Lighthaven existing in the world as a vague thing. Impersonally, not in the ways they have affected me, just like... worlds-with-these-people-doing-this-thing-in-it vs worlds-without. This got me up to a feeling of more than double what I wanted to give, somewhere around 25ish.
Third, I thought about how much value I personally have gained from Lesswrong and Lighthaven. I cannot really put a number on this. It's hard to disentangle the value from all the various sources in the rationality space, and the people who posts on LW and attended Lighthaven events. This ballooned the amount to something extremely hard to measure. Far more than $100, but probably less than 10,000?
Fourth, I dealt with the flinch-response again. 10,000 is a lot for me. I lost more than that due to FTX's collapse even before the clawback stress started, and that took a bit of time to stop feeling internal jabs over. A few subsections needed dealing with; what if I have an emergency and need lots of money? What if my hypothetical future wife or kids do? Would I regret donating then? This bumped me way back down to the hundreds range.
Fifth, I thought about how I would feel if I woke up today and instead of reading this post, I read a post saying that they had to shut down Lighthaven, and maybe even LessWrong, due to lack of funding. How much I would regret not having donated money, even if it didn't end up helping. I'm still quite sad that we lost Wytham, and would pay money to retroactively try to save it if I could. This brought me up to something like $3-500.
Sixth, I confronted the niggling thought of "hopefully someone out there will donate enough that my contribution will not really matter, so maybe I don't even need to really donate much at all?" This thought felt bad, and I had a brief chat with my parts, thanking my internal pragmatism for its role in ensuring we're not being wasteful before exploring together if this is the sort of person we want to be when other people might need us. After that conversation was over the number had stabilized around 500.
Seventh, I thought about the social signal if I say I donated a lot and how this might encourage others to donate more too, effectively increasing the amount Lesswrong gets, and decided this didn't really affect much. Maybe a minor effect toward increasing, but nothing noticeable.
Eighth, I thought about the impact to the world re: Alignment. I felt the black hole there, the potential infinite abyss that I could throw my savings and life into and probably not get any useful effect out of, and spent some time with that before examining it again and feeling like another few hundred may not "make sense" in one direction or the other, but felt better than not doing it.
And ninth, I finally thought about the individuals working at Lighthaven that I know. How much do I trust them? How much do I want them to feel supported and motivated and cared for by the community they're contributing so much to?
By the end of that I was around 8-900 and I thought, fuck it, I've made stupider financial decisions than an extra hundred bucks for a fancy T-shirt, and nice round numbers are nice and round.
Thank you all for all you do. I hope this helps.
Sure. So, there are some workplaces have implicit cultural norms that aren't written down but are crucial for career advancement. Always being available and responding to emails quickly might be an unspoken expectation, or participating in after-work social events might not be mandatory but would be noted and count against people looking for promotion. Certain dress codes or communication styles might be rewarded or penalized beyond their actual professional relevance.
In a community, this usually comes as a form of purity testing of some kind, but can also be related to preferences around how you socialize or what you spend your time doing. If you're in a community that thinks sex-work is low status, for example, and you want to ask if that's true... just asking might in fact be costly, because it might clue people in to your potential interest in doing it.
Does that make sense?
I agree that those are the thoughts at the surface-level of Bryce in those situations, and they are not the same as "it's wrong/stupid to enjoy eating ice cream."
But I think in many cases, they often do imply "and you are stupid/irrational if knowing these things does not spoil your enjoyment or shift your hedonic attractor." And even if Bryce genuinely doesn't feel that way, I hope they would still be very careful with their wording to avoid that implication.
The implication that the preference itself is bad only works with assumptions that the preference will cause harm, to yourself or others, even if you don't act on it. But I don't think this is always true; it's often a matter of degree or context, and how the person's inner life works.
We could certainly say it is inconvenient or dysfunctional to have a preference that causes suffering for the self or others, and maybe that's what you mean by "bad." But this still doesn't justify the assertion that "expressing" the preference is "wrong." That's the thing that feels particularly presumptuous, to me, about how preferences should be distinguished from actions.
Ah, yeah I definitely struggle a bit sometimes with people who make objective-assertion-type-statements when promoting or defending things they enjoy. I also gain quite a lot of enjoyment from looking at various kinds of media with a critical eye; I just do my best to keep that criticism in contexts where the listener or reader wants to share it :)
Excellent points! Yes, this is definitely a fun and interesting thing to engage with intellectually so long as both people feel like it's being done in a non-judgmental or agendic way. Part of why I included the paragraphs about non-filtering being hard for some people is that I know there are some brains for which this genuinely doesn't feel like it "should" be hostile or pressurey, since they don't perceive it that way... but as in all things, that's why your point about actually paying attention to what the other person says and taking it seriously is so important.
Makes sense! I probably will not have time to dedicate to do this properly over the next few days, but maybe after that.
I'm a little confused. Do the examples in the post seem purely hypothetical to you? They're all real things I have encountered or heard from others:
- Whether or not it's rational to have ice cream (or other unhealthy indulgences).
- Whether or not wanting your high-earning partner to do housework is reasonable.
- Whether being hurt by unfiltered criticism or judgements is rational.
- Whether being mono vs open vs poly is a sign of rationality.
- Whether your career preference is a sign of how smart or rational you are.
Obviously not all are as equally detailed, and I could always add more, but if it doesn't seem concrete enough yet, I'm not sure what else I should add or in how much detail to hit the target better.
Completely agree, and for what it's worth, I don't think anything in the frame of my post contradicts these points.
"You either do or do not feel a want" is not the same as "you either do now or you never will," and I note that conditioning is also a cause of preferences, though I will edit to highlight that this is an ongoing process in case it sounds like I was saying it's all locked-in from some vague "past" or developmental experiences (which was not my intent).
To your first point, I do believe the post covers this; specifically, the idea that e.g. frames and predictions can be mistaken, and correcting those mistakes can change emotional reactivity. Is that not what you mean?
For the second point... if they follow their preferences, they are acting, and if they are wrong it's because it causes harm, no? I do not believe preferences themselves, or expressing them, should ever be considered wrong; that seems an artifact of Puritanical norms and fears.
I think wants that arise from conscious thought are, fundamentally, wants that arise from feelings attached to those conscious thoughts. The conscious thought processes may be mistaken in many ways, but they still evoke memories or predictions that trigger emotions associated with imagined world-states, which translate to wants or not-wants.
I don't see how your question contradicts my statement, nor that link. People absolutely develop in their desires over time, and can change them, but that is not the same as being able to decide, in the moment, that you do not like the taste of pizza if your tongue is having the sensory experience of enjoying it.
Hm. I think I disagree on both counts; we maybe need to operationalize the words, but while I think hatred of others can be very valuable in some cases from a game theoretic perspective, and is very natural given that, lacking it is absolutely not something I've seen consistent in "unwell people," and I've never known it to be "useful" for people who can protect themselves or others without it.
To be clear, anger is extremely valuable for self protection and boundaries, and I never claimed to not get angry. So if that's what you meant, then yes, people who can't summon anger in defense of themselves or others are often unwell or in denial of how bad their circumstances are.
But in most cases I've seen, "hatred" of people, especially people who are fundamentally not malicious or sadistic, but just fairly flawed, seems to me a much stronger sign of unwellness than wellness, particularly if the person is not subject to ongoing pain or suffering.
As for finding the childhood "not terrible," I'm reminded of the xkcd on self reporting pain ratings :P
I grew up in a relatively safe part of the Miami suburbs, but it was still Miami, and I was guest to a lot of shitty households (even before I started working as a therapist) that made me thankful for the things I did have; three meals a day most days, a mom who worked multiple jobs to afford private school for at least a few years, gifts on holidays and birthdays, a secure home that I never worried about losing (other than from the occasional hurricane) and which I knew would always be there for me if I needed a place to stay, even when I much preferred going elsewhere.
You might say this is just the result of anchoring in a different direction, but to me it just feels like having had a wide perspective. I don't not know what good families are like. I knew it from the start, because of fiction. It was always obvious what was wrong, when something was wrong, and what was right when it was right.
My basic point is just that I and many people would describe similarly mixed upbringings as not terrible, and they wouldn't be in denial about it. My family messed up in a lot of ways, but they were still, most of the time, a functional system, where people gave each other support and showed affection and took care of each other when they were hurt or sick. It was also a place where people occasionally screamed at each other, and cried. Sometimes things were broken, sometimes people were hit. These are terrible things to have happen, but they were not the dominant experience compared to the good things.
I mentioned some of the most negative things because they were relevant to point out the ways my upbringing was not obviously responsible for some positive aspects of myself, but there was plenty of positive unrelated to the things I mentioned, and I gave that disclaimer because I think most people do not actually have a wide enough sample set to accurately judge the the range from "not terrible" to "terrible," especially given (understandable) protectiveness of children's wellbeing.
I've had many conversations with many people, young and old, why the things they experienced as children were abusive or "not okay." I've also had to intervene in enough truly, actually abusive households to know what my own experience was and wasn't. I don't excuse anything my family did, which is a big part of why I left, but they tried their best. I wish I'd grown up in a happier home, but I was still luckier than many others I grew up around, and I don't hold any ill will toward people who were clearly lacking in the knowledge, resources, emotional stability, etc, to do better than they did.
I appreciate the acknowledgement against psychoanalyzing people in public, and I agree that trying to cargoculting any of this is unlikely to go well, but I'd be curious to know what specific things you think can also fall under "being very unwell?" I just reread the excerpts Chris highlighted and the only thing I can think of is the "letting go of anger" thing, which is only a sign of unwellness, imo, if it leads to being exploited/abused/etc.
I didn't pick the title, but I definitely consider it inclusive rather than exclusive or normative :)
More specifically, I think there are peaks and valleys in psychological health, and I don't think the space I occupy is necessarily one of the highest peaks. But I would say that, regarding suffering or prolonged internal conflict, these measures feel pretty useful for determining two of the axes that point directionally at "health," unless there's a convincing argument that there are points in which more suffering or more internal conflict can be better, which I have yet to find convincing (and I suspect people who believe that would operationalize them differently than I would).
And yes, the reason I described the depressive episode the way I did was to indicate that I've only felt anything close to that due to life circumstances where the feelings were fairly legible and understandable! Six months of grief (or more) after someone dies is definitely not a sign of mental unhealth.
Ah, sorry that wasn't clear! It's not meant to specifically be an example of breaking things down into smaller steps, but rather a situation where, because it's so simple, the useful step instead is positive visualization and attention on what each following step would result in.
Much appreciated! I made some quick tweaks to a couple of them, thanks :)
Glad to hear! To expand on the : your ability to engage in "non-doing" is itself a thing that you can train to predict will go better if tried.
And thanks for sharing; any extra details you'd want to add about what makes it harder would be appreciated :)
Should be fixed now, thanks!
>I think you're preaching to the choir.
Definitely, but if anyone's going to disagree in a way that might change my mind or add points I haven't thought of, I figured it would be people here.
I'm running a small rationality dojo to try to approach this issue from the rat-for-rat-sake direction in a few weeks, trying to incorporate the things I learned from my Seasons of Growth, my Executive Function research, and stuff like Logan's Naturalism sequence (not to mention years of teaching at rat camps and workshops). I plan to do a writeup after, but would also love to chat sometime about this, either before or after.
FWIW I think my main takeaway here is that if you update at all on any point of untrustworthiness of the original sources, that update should propagate toward the rest of the points.
I think most brains are bad at this, naturally, and it's just a hard thing to do without effort, which is why things like Gish gallops and character assassinations work even when debunked.
My secondary takeaway is that people should not update as hard as they do on people threatening to "retaliate" against social harm done to them unless the claims are very obviously true or the "retaliation" is very obviously false. If we don't know if they're true or not, then what the accuser feels is "retribution" will be felt by the accused as "justice," and I think that both are natural feelings most people would have, but most people have not been publicly pilloried and so cannot connect as easily with the empathy for that position.
I also want to add that I think the community in general has shown a mild failure in treating the legal action threat as evidence of wrongdoing even if the lawsuit would ultimately fail.
It is really bad to treat a libel suit threat as some horrible thing that no one "innocent" would ever do. It's a form of demonizing anyone who has ever used or thought to use the legal system defensively.
Which if intended, seems to be fundentally missing what the point of a legal system should be. It is no doubt a problem that people with lots of power, whether it's fame or money or whatever, are more likely to win legal battles.
But it's also a way more truth oriented process than the court of public opinion. And many people who would have stood 0 chance of getting justice without it have gotten some through it.
Do such threats have a chilling effect on criticism? Of course, and that's a problem, particularly if they're used too often or too quickly.
But the solution cannot be "no one makes such threats no matter what." Because then there's no recourse but the court of public opinion, which is not something anyone should feel comfortable ceding their life and wellbeing to.
I think someone outside the community seeing this sort of reaction of people inside it being shunned, demonized, etc for threatening to use a very core right that they're entitled to would likely find it... pretty sketchy.
Because it can easily be construed as "we resolve these things 'in house,' via our own methods. No need to get Outsiders involved."
And man, it sure would be great if we had that sort of high trust effective investigation capability in the community.
But we really have not shown that capability yet, and even if we do, no one should feel like they're giving up their basic rights to be a member of good standing in the community.
I think many if not most people in Emerson's position, feeling like they were about to be lied about in a life-destroying way, had facts to rebut the lies, and were being essentially ignored in requests to clarify the truth, would think of legal action.
Whether they would be wrong in how easy it would be to win is a different issue entirely from that very (from base society perspective) normal view.
I definitely read all examples as "both at the same time."
1) Whatever X publicly condemned thing you can think of, it exists on a spectrum.
2) There is a lot more of all instances of it happening than you think there are.
3) A lot of it does not look like the kind you are most likely to notice and condemn.
Thanks for this writeup, still undergoing various updates based on the info above and responses from Nonlinear.
One thing I do want to comment on is this:
(Personal aside: Regarding the texts from Kat Woods shown above — I have to say, if you want to be allies with me, you must not write texts like these. A lot of bad behavior can be learned from, fixed, and forgiven, but if you take actions to prevent me from being able to learn that the bad behavior is even going on, then I have to always be worried that something far worse is happening that I’m not aware of, and indeed I have been quite shocked to discover how bad people’s experiences were working for Nonlinear.)
I agree that it was a bad message to send. I agree that people shouldn't make it hard for others who have a stake in something to learn about bad behavior from others involved.
But I think it's actually a bit more complex if you consider the 0 privacy norms that might naturally follow from that, and I can kind of understand where Kat is (potentially) coming from in that message. This doesn't really apply if Nonlinear was actually being abusive, of course, only if they did things that most people would consider reasonable but which felt unfair to the recipient.
What I mean is basically that it can be tough to know how to act around people who might start shit-talking your organization when them doing so would be defecting on a peace treaty at best, and abusing good-will at worst. And it's actually generally hard to know if they're cognizant of that, in my experience.
This is totally independent of who's "right" or "wrong," and I have 0 personal knowledge of the Nonlinear stuff. But there are some people who have been to summer camps that we've had the opportunity to put on blast about antisocial things they've done that got them removed from the ecosystem, but we try to be careful to only do that when it's *really* egregious, and so often chose not to because it would have felt like too much of an escalation for something that was contained and private...
...but if they were to shit-talk the camps or how they were treated, that would feel pretty bad from my end in the "Well, fuck, I guess this is what we get for being compassionate" sense.
Many people may think it would be a better world if they imagine everyone's antisocial acts being immediately widely publicized, but in reality what I think would result is a default stance of "All organizations try to ruin people's reputations if they believe they did something even slightly antisocial so that they can't harm their reputation by telling biased stories about them first," and I think most people would actually find themselves unhappy with that world. (I'm not actually sure about that, though it seems safer to err on the side of caution.)
It can sound sinister or be a bad power dynamic from an organization to an individual, but if an individual genuinely doesn't seem to realize that the thing holding the org back isn't primarily a mutual worry of negative reputation harm but something like compassion and general decency norms, it might feel necessary to make that explicit... though of course making it explicit comes off as a threat, which is worse in many ways even if it could have been implicitly understood that the threat of reputation harm existed just from the fact that the organization no longer wants you to work with them.
There are good reasons historically why public bias is in the favor of individuals speaking out against organizations, but I think most people who have worked in organizations know what a headache it can be to deal with the occasional incredibly unreasonable person (again, not saying that's the case here, just speaking in general), and how hard it is to determine how much to communicate to the outside world when you do encounter someone you think is worse than just a "bad fit." I think it's hard to set a policy for that which is fair to everyone, and am generally unsure about what the best thing to do in such cases is.
This was crossposted, so I can't edit this version's doc to say:
Please post submissions on the EA Forums version of this post!
Heya! Did you ever get the covers for Origin of Species finalized? Would be curious to see them if so :)
Agreed in principle, though it's worth noting that more resourced people tend to have less insecurities in general. People who have a stable family, no economic insecurity, positive peer support, etc, end up less susceptible to cults, as well as bad social dynamics in general.
This isn't to say that people can't create stable confidence for themselves without those things, only that "dependent confidence" is also a thing that people can have instead that acts protectively, or exposes risk.
Good breakdown of one of the aspects in all this. The insecurity/desperation topic is a really hard one to navigate well, but I agree it's really important.
Hard because when someone feels like an outsider, a group of other likeminded outsiders will naturally want to help them and welcome them, and it can be an uncomplicated good to do so. Important because if someone has only one source of to supply support, resources, social needs, etc, they are far more likely to turn desperate or do desperate things to maintain their place in the community.
Does this mean we should not accept anyone into the community just because they really want a safe place to avoid broader civilization? I don't think so, but it's definitely a flag more people should be aware of, including those who are desperate to belong. Exploitation can happen on a broad and public scale, like organizations looking for volunteers or employees, but it can also be small and private, at the level of group houses and friends made in the community.
Young people in particular who join the community are of course especially at risk here, and it's a constant struggle at the rationality camps to both welcome and provide opportunities for those who do want to join the broader community rather than just enjoy the camp for its own sake, but not foster dependency.
All good points, and yeah I did consider the issue of "appeals" but considered "accept the judgement you get" part of the implicit (or even explicit if necessary) agreeement made when raising that flag in the first place. Maybe it would require both people to mutually accept it.
But I'm glad the "pool of people" variation was tried, even if it wasn’t sustainable as volunteer work.
FWIW, I don't avoid posting because of worries of criticism or nitpicking at all. I can't recall a moment that's ever happened.
But I do avoid posting once in a while, and avoid commenting, because I don't always have enough confidence that, if things start to move in an unproductive way, there will be any *resolution* to that.
If I'd been on Lesswrong a lot 10 years ago, this wouldn't stop me much. I used to be very... well, not happy exactly, but willing, to spend hours fighting the good fight and highlighting all the ways people are being bullies or engaging in bad argument norms or polluting the epistemic commons or using performative Dark Arts and so on.
But moderators of various sites (not LW) have often failed to be able to adjudicate such situations to my satisfaction, and over time I just felt like it wasn't worth the effort in most cases.
From what I've observed, LW mod team is far better than most sites at this. But when I imagine a nearer-to-perfect-world, it does include a lot more "heavy handed" moderation in the form of someone outside of an argument being willing and able to judge and highlight whether someone is failing in some essential way to be a productive conversation partner.
I'm not sure what the best way to do this would be, mechanically, given realistic time and energy constraints. Maybe a special "Flag a moderator" button that has a limited amount of uses per month (increased by account karma?) that calls in a mod to read over the thread and adjudicate? Maybe even that would be too onerous, but *shrugs* There's probably a scale at which it is valuable for most people while still being insufficient for someone like Duncan. Maybe the amount decreases each time you're ruled against.
Overall I don't want to overpromise something like "if LW has a stronger concentration of force expectation for good conversation norms I'd participate 100x more instead of just reading." But 10x more to begin with, certainly, and maybe more than that over time.
Strong agree. The interesting coordination/incentive questions that come to mind are things like:
- Would it help to make criticism have diminishing returns on social status?
- Would it help if contribution/building boosts criticism visibility?
- How does a society/garden reach the most productive equilibrium of Socrates? The ideal world where each Socrates is doing something meaningfully different from each other is hard to arrive at while each individually feels like they are Fighting the Good Fight.
Thank you both for writing this and sharing your thoughts on the ecosystem in general. It's always heartening for me, even just as someone who occasionally visits the Bay, to see the amount of attention and thought being put into the effects of things like this on not just the ecosystem there, but also the broader ecosystem that I mostly interact with and work in. Posts like this make me slightly more hopeful for the community's general health prospects.
Hey Blasted, thanks for sharing :) I remember enjoying Well, will try to check out the others when I get a chance.
Thanks for posting this Adam! (For those that don't know, I'm Damon)
I think another writing competition would be a good way to encourage stories like this, and am considering what the best way to structure that might be.
Meanwhile, to add a bit more to the sorts of stories I think would be good to see, I think fiction is powerful because it not just allows to grapple with unusual or alien ideas, but also, if written from the perspective of characters with rich inner lives, see the world through a different lens and perspective. When we’re engaged in a character’s experience, their thoughts and reactions and emotions, some part of us can download what it’s like to be that sort of person, and can give us a blueprint for how to act in that sort of situation.
Many people outside of the community don’t know what it’s like to be someone who grapples with problems this big, and many people inside of it are desperate for “better” ways to orient to topics that can be frightening, depressing, or painful to think of, such as widespread suffering in the world, or X-risk.
Which is why, among the other types of AI Fables I'd love to see is at least one story about the struggles, internal and external, of a character facing a problem that threatens the world, all while still mostly going about a day-to-day life.
Most stories don’t cover that in particular because most protagonists dealing with such stakes are in constant struggle against it throughout the story. But in our world, for X-risks we face, that's just not true. Whether you're trying to prevent nuclear winter or prevent unaligned AGI, you'll end up spending most of your time among people or in a broader culture that isn't particularly concerned about it, and in the latter case will likely think you're kind of weird for worrying about it.
Characters in fiction can do more than entertain or inform us by their actions; they can also inspire us, and give us frames and mental models to help handle difficult emotional situations.
If you have ideas for short stories that might show that, or anything else Adam mentioned, feel free to message me too. Also feel free to reach out if you have thoughts on the best way to solicit such stories; I'm tentatively planning to put something together for late April or May.
I agree that "asserting what someone is doing" can also be considered frame control or manipulation. But I think it's much less often so, or much less dark artsy, because it's referencing observable behavior rather than unverifiable/unfalsifiable elements.
Meanwhile the guru might be supplementing this with non-frame-control techniques. When they argue with you, they imply (maybe in a kind but firm voice, maybe with an undertone of social threat) that you're kinda stupid for disagreeing for them
This exact implication isn't frame control, but the common thing I've seen gurus do that is more subtle is assert why you disagree with them in a way that reinforces their frame.
"Kinda stupid" is overly crude, and might be spotted and feel off even among those who believe in them, but implying you just don't "get" what they're saying because you're unenlightened or not ready for it is very effective at quieting dissent and maintaining their control.
In general this is why I dislike any attempts to assert with confidence what someone thinks or feels, as well as why. I may be one of the only therapists who hates psychoanalysis, but I maintain that it's almost always a bad thing to to anyone who isn't inviting it, and sometimes even then.
I don't think it's particularly stupid to think this might work; it is in fact how most of our ancestors oriented to relationships. We just have higher standards, these days... for good and for ill.
Great post, will add it to my Relationships Orientations guide.
I will note that society somewhat seems to depend on people prioritizing Building relationships over Entertaining ones, and this is certainly how things worked in the old days such that most of our parents and ancestors did not have the luxury to choose the most entertaining partners. Our standards as a whole have raised when it comes to relationships, in part due to unrealistic fictional representations, but our selective processes for finding partners have not increased proportionally.
It is still (probably) better in most cases to try and find the most happiness you can with a Building relationship if you do want a family, than trying to build a life with someone who primarily fulfills the Entertainment criteria, so long as you and your partner can at least reach stable "contentment." But people who do so should be very prepared for it to be genuinely hard to maintain a positive relationship with someone over decades without that "spark," hence the frequency of infidelity and divorce.
Life is just not optimized to give most people ~everything they want in a partner, which can suck to realize, but is (plausibly) important not to fool ourselves about, particularly for monogamous people.
Great post, thank you for writing it. Helps to have something to link people to when trying to explain this, and also the list of examples are great.
(And also Music in Human Evolution gave me a great "click" sensation, as soon as I read the list of facts in the beginning)
Ah, thanks for saying that. It does feel worth noting that I am a huge proponent of Heroic Responsibility, so let me see if I can try in bullet point form at least, for now...
1) People have much more capacity for agency than society tends to instill in them.
2) The largest problems in the world are such that some people pretty much have to take it upon themselves to dedicate large chunks of their life to solving them, or else no one will.
3) This in fact describes most of the widely admired people in history: those who saw a major problem in the world, decided to make it their life mission to solve it, and often sacrificed much to do so.
4) For these reasons and more, I would never tell someone not to take Heroic Responsibility for things they care about. It would be hypocritical of me to do so. But...
4a) I do caution people against taking Heroic Responsibility for things they feel pressured to value, as you note in this post, and
4b) I do caution people to remember that most heroes historically do not in fact have happy endings.
5) Furthermore and separately, for every hero who visibly took a major problem in the world upon their shoulders and was recognized for doing so, many more are invisible to us because they never managed to accomplish anything.
6) Heroic Responsibility is not just a lens, it also provides power. It is a frame for motivating action, heightening agency, and expanding solution-space.
7) Like most powers, it comes with a cost to those who try to wield it unprepared. Someone who has not internalized and accepted "failure" as a part of life, as an intrinsic part of the process for learning and growth, is more likely to let the power of Heroic Responsibility break them in pursuit of their cherished values.
...I think that's it for now, though I can say more and expand on each of these. Thoughts so far?
This all seems broadly correct, to me.
But I think it's worth noting that there's an additional piece of the puzzle that I believe this one is largely codependent on: namely, that burnout often comes from a mismatch between responsibility and power.
This can be seen in not just high-stress jobs like medicine or crisis work, but also regular "office jobs" and interpersonal relationships. The more someone feels responsible for an outcome, whether internally or due to external pressure/expectations, the more power to actually affect change they will need to not feel that their efforts are pointless.
EAs tend to be the sort of people who, in addition to taking large scale problems seriously, internalize the idea of Heroic Responsibility. This can work out well if they manage to find some form of work that helps them feel like they are making meaningful change, but if they do not, it can make the large, difficult, and often heartbreaking challenges the world faces all the more difficult to engage with. And for many, narratives of personal inadequacy start to creep in, unless they have proper CBT training, robust self-care norms, or a clear sense of boundaries and distinctions between what is in their power and what isn't.
Most people in society tend to do work that progresses causes and institutions with not-perfectly-aligned values to their own. The two main ways I've seen this not cause burnout is either 1) when they don't really pay attention to the issues at all, or 2) when they feel like they're still making a meaningful difference to progress their values in some way, shape or form. Lacking that, the mismatch of values will indeed tend to erode many aspects of their mental and emotional wellbeing until they grow numb to the value dissonance or burnout.
First things that come to mind are dance party/club for jealousy, political rally for nationalism.
Thanks for writing all this, found it very interesting and (expectantly) useful!
One thing that interests me is how to apply it to more abstract concepts; I'm not particularly interested in things found in the state of nature, like bugs and trees and such, but I am fascinated by people, emotions, thoughts, etc. So I find myself thinking things like "What can I do to increase my contact with 'Jealousy' or 'nationalism' etc" and coming up with ways to either find circumstances where people feel those things and observe them, or find ways to induce those feelings in myself for more careful study... but neither feels quite satisfying to what I actually want to better understand.
Curious to know if you have any thoughts on this, or ideas for what might help better orient my frame of how to explore those things more directly in this way.
These concepts are great. It's really neat noticing how well you're teaching this in such a straightforward way, because it's easy to imagining how someone else could try teaching it in a straightforward way and say it in a much more clumsy or ineffectual method. Like, the importance of noting that patient observation can/must include being able to return to something your attention has bounced off of rather than keeping your attention on it consistently moment to moment feels really hard to overstate!
These categories also feel super useful and worth distinguishing for a number of circumstances, such as one layer of trying to understand why two people could ostensibly experience the same thing, such as eyewitness a robbery, but remember it very differently.
I seriously love this categorization of different ways of "knowing," and am already thinking of ways to use it in some story or another.