Yes Requires the Possibility of No

“Do I look fat in this outfit?”

(Similarly, asking your mother / husband / etc. for an honest evaluation of your cooking.)

The only way to get information from a query is to be willing to (actually) accept different answers. Otherwise, conservation of expected evidence kicks in. This is the best encapsulation of this point, by far, that I know about, in terms of helping me/others quickly/deeply grok it. Seems essential.

Reading this again, the thing I notice most is that I generally think of this point as being mostly about situations like the third one, but most of the post's examples are instead about internal epistemic situations, where someone can't confidently conclude or believe some X because they realize something is blocking a potential belief in (not X), which means they can't gather meaningful evidence.

Which is the same point at core - Bob can't know Charlie consents because he doesn't let Charlie refuse. Yet it feels like a distinct takeaway in the Five Words sense - evidence must run both ways vs. consent requires easy refusal, or something. And the first lesson is the one emphasized here, because 1->2 but not 2->1. And I do think I got the intended point for real. Yet I can see exactly why the attention/emphasis got hijacked in hindsight when remembering the post. 

Also wondering about the relationship between this and Choices are Bad. Not sure what is there but I do sense something is there. 

This is great! One subtle advantage of the list-of-koans format is that it provides a natural prompt for the reader to think up their own as an exercise.

10. Irene wants to believe the claim "G is an H." H is a fuzzy category and the word "H" can be used in many ways depending on context. Irene finds she can make the sentence "G is an H" more probable by deliberately choosing a sufficiently broad definition of "H", but only at the cost of making the word less useful [LW · GW].

11. Jessica posts something to a social-media platform that has "Like"s, but not downvotes. She doesn't know whether no one saw her post, or if lots of people saw it but they all hated it.

In reading this it has occurred to me that a good response to someone asking for an "honest" answer might be to ask in return "Why do you want an honest answer?". The response might provide a guide as to whether or not the questioner really does want an honest answer, and whether or not it is a good idea to supply one.

Just noticed a hell of an example in my own life. (pardon the pun)

11. Accepting salvation requires the possibility of damnation. Heaven requires the possibility of Hell.

Less metaphorical: At the beginning of university I joined the camp of "The path to all good and righteous things in life will come from Deep Work and mastery over skills." Today when examining why I was so scared of not achieving huge quality work output in life, I realized it's because I implicitly bought into the Deep Work hell.

The above isn't to say that I think Cal Newport is pitching an idea of hell. My point is that in the process of believing in something that had the emotional valence of "salvation", I couldn't help myself from also believing in something that had the emotional valence of "hell".

This falls under the category of "things that is good to have a marker to point at and does a much better job than any previous marker." It also made me more aware of this principle, and caused me to get more explicit about ensuring the possibility of no in some interactions even though it was socially slightly awkward.

Promoted to curated: This post makes an important point that I haven't actually seen made somewhere else, but that I myself had to explain on many past occasions, so having a more canonical referent to it is quite useful.

I also quite like the format and generally think that pointing to important concepts using a bunch of examples seems relatively underutilized given how easy those kinds of post tend to be to write, and how useful they tend to be.

Note that in 1 if you want to avoid the "lackluster doing" outcome you have to genuinely be willing to not do / take pessimism effectively in to account when you do the group discussion: It seems to be a very distinct skill which is not very obvious.

In 9 it's kinda weird that a bayesian wants to increase a probability of a proposition. Someone that takes conservation of expected evidence into hearth would know that a too high number would be counterproductive hubris. I guess it could mean "I want to make X happen" vs "I want to believe X will happen". I get how the reasoning works on the belief side but effecting the world side I am unsure the logic even applies.

Yes requiring the possibility of no has been something I've intuitively been aware of in social situations (anywhere where one could claim "you would have said that anyway"). 

This post does a good job of applying more examples and consequences of this (the examples cover a wide range of decisions), and tying to to the mathematical law of conservation of evidence. 

Adding a nomination, this is also a phrase I regularly use.

I see this concept referenced a lot and would be happy if it were spread more widely. The post is also clear and concise.

in Skill: The Map is Not the Territory [? · GW] Eliezer wrote:

Sometimes it still amazes me to contemplate that this proverb [The map is not the territory] was invented at some point, and some fellow named Korzybski invented it, and this happened as late as the 20th century. 

That's exactly how I've felt when i read this post. it's such a fundamental principle, which I've used so much even before reading the post, that it was amazing to me that this phrase has been uttered only as late as 2019.

I also remember thinking that someone must have already said it somewhere, and not being able to find any other instance online.

It's a principle and a phrase i still use a lot (and probably even more since the post), so i think this post deserves all the nominations it got.

This is one of those posts that crystallizes a thing well enough that you want to remember it and link to it as shorthand. Though I do think most of the top-tier rationalists already understood this concept prior to 2019, and were applying it, without necessarily having a good name or crystallization. This seems like a more accessible, easier-to-connect and slightly more general version of the concept of conservation of expected evidence [? · GW].

I am struggling to understand the goal of the post. We have the 9 scenarios but exactly what is the target?

In some cases I would say "The truth hurts." is the well-know saying that fits and so we have the social grace of white lies.

In others I would say we live in a world of uncertainty and will never really enjoy the luxury of 100% knowing if something is true or not. We end up actually taking things on faith (that's not limited to religions).

Last, we have cases where we have a responsibility to be honest, both with ourselves and others (perhaps case 1 fits here). The goal here then is how to be honest in a constructive way.

I've referred and linked to this post in discussions outside the rationalist community; that's how important the principle is. (Many people understand the idea in the domain of consent, but have never thought about it in the domain of epistemology.)

Recommended.

I would say that Mistakes with Conservation of Expected Evidence [LW · GW] is kind of a review of this post.

(Not making this comment a review because I didn't actually write the linked post)

While "yes requires the possibility of no" is correct, one should also establish whether or not either yes or no is meaningful itself in the context of the examination. For example, usually one is not up against a real authority, so whether the view of the other person is in favor or against his/her own the answer cannot be final for reasons other than just the internal conflict of the one who poses (or fears to pose) the question.

Often (in the internet age) we see this issue of bias and fear of asking framed in regards to hybrid matters, both scientific and political. However, one would have to suppose that the paradigmatic anxiety before getting an answer exists only in matters which are more personal. And in personal matters there is usually no clear authority, despite the fact that often there is a clear (when honest) consensus.

An example, from life. A very beautiful girl happens to have a disability - for example paralysis or atrophy of some part of her body. There is clear contrast between her pretty features (face, upper body etc) and the disabled/distorted one. The girl cannot accept this, yet - as is perfectly human - wishes to get some reassurance from others. Others may react in a number of different ways. The answer, however, to any question posed on this, can never be regarded as some final say, and in a way it happens that what is being juxtaposed here is not a question with an answer, but an entire mental life with some nearly nameless input of some other human.

In essence, while yes requires the possibility of no, I think that the most anxiety-causing matters really do not lend themselves well to asking a question in the first place.

4. Derek has an accomplishment. Others often talk about how great the accomplishment is. Derek has imposter syndrome and is unable to fully believe that the accomplishment is good. Part of this is due to a desire to appear humble, but part of it stems from Derek's lack of self trust. Derek can see lots of pressures to believe that the accomplishment is good. Derek does not understand exactly how he thinks, and so is concerned that there might be a significant bias that could cause him to falsely conclude that the accomplishment is better than it is. Because of this he does not fully trust his inside view which says the accomplishment is good.

I've been dealing with the problem outlined here (I'm concerned that there might be a bias causing me to conclude A, so I distrust the conclusion A).  Are there any helpful posts on why this is wrong? 

When a teacher is wondering whether to skip explaining concept-X, they should ask "who is familiar with concept-X" and not "who is not familiar with concept-X".

it was strange to read it. it was interesting - explaining point i already know in succinct and effective way. and it's connect nicely with the extensive discussion on consent and boundaries. Boundaries: Your Yes Means Nothing if You Can’t Say No. 

and then, when i was reading the comments and still internalizing the post i got it - i actually re-invented this concept myself! it could have been so nice not to have to do it... i wrote my own post about it - in Hebrew. it's name translates to Admit that sometimes the answer is "yes", and it start with a story about woman that claimed to believe in personal optimization of diet my experiments on yourself, but then find a reason no invalidate every result that contradicted her own believes about optimal diet. it took me years to notice the pattern.

and then, this comment about budgeting and negotiating with yourself that empathized how important it is to allow the answer to be "yes":

"I’m seeing a lot of people recommend stopping before making small or impulse purchases and asking yourself if you really, really want the thing. That’s not bad advice, but it only works if the answer is allowed to be ‘yes.’ If you start by assuming that you can’t possibly want the thing in your heart of hearts, or that there’s something wrong with you if you do, it’s just another kind of self-shaming. "

it's kind of like 5, but from the point of view of different paradigm.

and of course, If we can’t lie to others, we will lie to ourselves.

it's all related to the same concept. but i find the different angels useful.

And that, kids, is why nobody wants to date or be friends with a rationalist.

It is possible for a human to hold two contradictory beliefs; and as action is predicated on belief, it is possible for a human holding two contradictory beliefs to attempt to take action based on one or both beliefs simultaneously, with the result being failure or success, and with the execution of the action being successful in itself, irrespective of temporal considerations. This highlights a higher belief: the belief of one's own validity, which is often referred to as, "consciousness"; "feeling", or "the soul". Additionally, external agencies may cause a human to act against his or her belief.