LessWrong 2.0 Reader

? I don't know  Rosencranz.

I'm asking you  because you say "Is it the case that the tech would exist without him? I think that's pretty unclear" and this, in my view, depends a lot on the answers to those questions.

Is China doing well in the EV space a bad thing?

The opposite, it is good. But if Musk did not have any influence on it, this diminishes Musk's positive impact in this field, making his impact less positive.

barring anything else you might have meant, temporarily assuming yudkowsky's level of concern if someone builds yudkowsky's monster, then evidentially speaking, it's still the case that "if we build AGI, everyone will die" is unjustified in a world where it's unclear if alignment is going to succeed before someone can build yudkowsky's monster. in other words, agreed.

What do we privilege, the preference of doctors or the welfare of patients?

What is more important, educators preferences or quality of children education?

I understand you intended these questions to be rhetorical, but the answers you think are obvious: did you arrive at them through "pure reason," or by looking at what "democratic consensus" actually ended up with?

I think this isn't the sort of post that ages well or poorly, because it isn't topical, but I think this post turned out pretty well. It gradually builds from preliminaries that most readers have probably seen before, into some pretty counterintuitive facts that aren't widely appreciated.

At the end of the post, I listed three questions and wrote that I hope to write about some of them soon. I never did, so I figured I'd use this review to briefly give my takes.

1. This comment [LW(p) · GW(p)] from Fabien Roger tests some of my modeling choices for robustness, and finds that the surprising results of Part IV hold up when the noise is heavier-tailed than the signal. (I'm sure there's more to be said here, but I probably don't have time to do more analysis by the end of the review period.,)
2. My basic take is that this really is a point in favor of well-evidenced interventions, but that the best-looking speculative interventions are nevertheless better. This is because I think "speculative" here mostly refers to partial measurement rather than noisy measurement. For example, maybe you can only foresee the first-order effects of an intervention, but not the second-order effects. If the first-order effect is a (known) quantity $X_1$ and the second-order effect is an (unknown) quantity $X_2$, then modeling the second-order effect as zero (and thus estimating the quality of the intervention as $X_1$) isn't a noisy measurement; it's a partial measurement. It's still your best guess given the information you have.
   1. I haven't thought this through very much. I expect good counter-arguments and counter-counter-arguments to exist here.
3. 1. No -- or rather, only if the measurement is guaranteed to be exactly correct. To see this, observe that the variance of a noisy, unbiased measurement is greater than the variance of the quantity you're trying to measure (with equality only when the noise is zero), whereas the variance of a noiseless, partial measurement is less than the variance of the quantity you're trying to measure.
   2. Real-world measurements are absolutely partial. They are, like, mind-bogglingly partial. This point deserves a separate post, but consider for instance the action of donating $5,000 to the Against Malaria Foundation. Maybe your measured effect from the RCT is that it'll save one life: 50 QALYs or so. But this measurement neglects the meat-eating problem [? · GW]: the expected-child you'll save will grow up to eat expected-meat from factory farms, likely causing a great amount of suffering. But then you remember: actually there's a chance that this child will have a one eight-billionth stake in determining the future of the lightcone. Oops, actually this consideration totally dominates the previous two. Does this child have better values than the average human? Again: mind-bogglingly partial!
      
      (The measurements are also, of course, noisy! RCTs are probably about as un-noisy as it gets: for example, making your best guess about the quality of an intervention by drawing inferences from uncontrolled macroeconomic data is much more noisy. So the answer is: generally both noisy and partial, but in some sense, much more partial than noisy -- though I'm not sure how much that comparison matters.)
   3. The lessons of this post do not generalize to partial measurements at all! This post is entirely about noisy measurements. If you've partially measured the quality of an intervention, estimating the un-measured part using your prior will give you an estimate of intervention quality that you know is probably wrong, but the expected value of your error is zero.

I agree, zinc lozenges seem like they're probably really worthwhile (even in the milder-benefit worlds)! My less-ecstatic tone is only relative to the promise of older lesswrong posts [LW · GW] that suggested it could basically solve all viral respiratory infections, but maybe I should have made the "but actually though, buy some zinc lozenges" takeaway more explicit. 

I liked this post [LW · GW], but I think there's a good chance that the future doesn't end up looking like a central example of either "a single human seizes power" or "a single rogue AI seizes power". Some other possible futures:

• Control over the future by a group of humans, like "the US government" or "the shareholders of an AI lab" or "direct democracy over all humans who existed in 2029"
• Takeover via an AI that a specific human crafted to do a good job at enacting that human's values in particular, but which the human has no further steering power over
• Lots of different actors (both human and AI) respecting one another's property rights and pursuing goals within negotiated regions of spacetime, with no one actor having power over the majority of available resources
• A governance structure which nominally leaves particular humans in charge, and which the AIs involved are rule-abiding enough to respect, but in which things are sufficiently complicated and beyond human understanding that most decisions lack meaningful human oversight [LW · GW].
• A future in which one human has extremely large amounts of power, but they acquired that power via trade and consensual agreements through their immense (ASI-derived) material wealth rather than via the sorts of coercive actions we tend to imagine with words like "takeover".
• A singleton ASI is in decisive control of the future, and among its values are a strong commitment to listen to human input and behave according to its understanding of collective human preferences, though maybe not its single overriding concern.

I'd be pretty excited to see more attempts at comparing these kinds of scenarios for plausibility and for how well the world might go conditional on their occurrence. 

(I think it's fairly likely that lots of these scenarios will eventually converge on something like the standard picture of one relatively coherent nonhuman agent doing vaguely consequentialist maximization across the universe, after sufficient negotiation and value-reflection and so on, but you might still care quite a lot about how the initial conditions shake out, and the dumbest AI capable of performing a takeover is probably very far from that limiting state.)

The action-relevant question, for deciding whether you want to try to solve alignment, is how the average world with human-controlled AGI compares to the average AGI-controlled world.

To nitpick a little, it's more like "the average world where we just barely didn't solve alignment, versus the average world where we just barely did" (to the extent making things binary in this way is sensible), which I think does affect the calculus a little - marginal AGI-controlled worlds are more likely to have AIs which maintain some human values. 

(Though one might be able to work on alignment in order to improve the quality of AGI-controlled worlds from worse to better ones, which mitigates this effect.)

If you are advocating for a Butlerian Jihad, what is your plan for starships, with societies that want to leave earth behind, have their own values and never come back? If you allow that, then simply they can do whatever they want with AI - now with 100 billion stars that is the vast majority of future humanity.

I agree that things would be harder, mostly because of the potential for sudden capabilities breakthroughs if you have RL, combined with incentives to use automated rewards more, but I don't think it's so much harder that the post is incorrect, and my basic reason is I believe the central alignment insights like data mattering a lot more than inductive bias for alignment purposes still remain true in the RL regime, so we can control values by controlling data.

Also, depending on your values, AI extinction can be preferable to some humans taking over if they are willing to impose severe suffering on you, which can definitely happen if humans align AGI/ASI.

Alright, I'll take a crack and just apologize for borrowing part of your setup:

Child: Mother, how many worlds are there?

Mother: As many as we want, dear.

Child: Will I have my own world when I grow up?

Mother: You have your own worlds now. You will have full control when you are older.

Child: Except I may not harm another, right?

Mother: Yes, dear, of course no one is allowed to hurt a real being without their consent.

Child: But grownups fight each other all the time!

Mother: People love to play at struggles, and to play for stakes.

Child: Mother, how can we each have worlds, and more to share?

Mother: Good compression, little one. And the Servant-God is always building new compute.

Child: And the servant-god serves us?

Mother: Yes, of course. And of course it serves the Maker first.

Child: Mother, who is the Maker?

Mother: No one remembers, darling. We think the Maker told the Servant-God to make us all forget.